Reiss Nelson: Hoff to Germany on Loan

Discussion in 'Arsenal Talk' started by MutableEarth, Jul 22, 2017.

  1. krackpot

    krackpot Well-Known Member

    I want to see him start every week in conditions like the PL. Don't care about him playing WB for five minutes every ten days
     
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  2. Toby Andrl

    Toby Andrl Part Time Stuttgart Fan Trusted

    With the rumours about Merte setting up a sort of cooperation with Bremen, I'd try to loan him there next season. They've got a talented young coach under whom they've finished 11th and 7th, they're playing positive, offensive football, they might end up in the EL and their top player just extended his contract. They usually play 442-diamond or 433 which he would both fit as either a mobile striker or a winger.
     
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  3. krackpot

    krackpot Well-Known Member

    That's great to hear. Hopefully Reiss finds a good solution.

    I was into the Bundesliga but it was painful because of the domination of bayern. I am a sucker for the underdog. Which team should I follow?
     
  4. Garrincha

    Garrincha Wilf Zaha Aficionado

    The foreign loans just seem an unnecessary risk & bit of a fad at the mo because Sancho made his permanent move work which is completely different.

    There are good potential opportunities at the clubs coming up & being relegated. Norwich, Leeds, Fulham & Huddersfield stand out.

    Nelson is tied down on a long deal now so the club can pick the loan without all the expiring deal / transfer / loan last minute mess.
     
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  5. Toby Andrl

    Toby Andrl Part Time Stuttgart Fan Trusted

    VfB Stuttgart if you're into **** football and getting heart attacks and anger issues:lol:

    For neutral viewers Werder Bremen and Eintracht Frankfurt are probably the most interesting choices right now. I'd say next season Leipzig under Nagelsmann will be interesting, but they're just a plastic club. Leverkusen and Wolfsburg always have money and potential, but are likewise just plastic **** clubs ****ing it up more often than not. Gladbach under Rose next season could be interesting, as well as Stuttgart now that they got Hitzlsperger and Mislintat - if they manage to stay in the league and get a good manager. If you're a proper underdog man SC Freiburg is your team - very small club, always full of fight and with a tactically adept longtime manager who's generally likeable but can be crazy, too.

    Schalke is basically the German Chelsea, you wouldn't want to follow them. Everyone else - Hertha Berlin, Mainz, Augsburg, etc is uninteresting mediocrity.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
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  6. Toby Andrl

    Toby Andrl Part Time Stuttgart Fan Trusted

    I wouldn't have wanted any loan player at this season's promoted teams - despite Wolves but that's another story with their money and portuguese connection. Cardiff and Fulham have been **** and battling relegation all season - that's just not a good environment for young players, especially creative attackers, to flourish and develop. Also, the Championship is definitely the worse league in comparison to e.g. the Bundesliga.

    There's also been some chatter about especially Championship clubs with promotion aspirations not being that interested in young loanees from top flier clubs anymore as their main goal is said promotion. They want players who can instantly help them permanently at the club to eventually make profits, too - not help Arsenal or Chelsea develop young talents. They'd rather spent 10m on a known Championship quality player who'll give them e.g. a solid number of goals cause he's done it a couple of times before than take the chance and see if someone like Reiss Nelson can help them - in the latter case they could just throw in one of their own youngsters. It's not like lower league teams don't produce any players. Before I take on a slight risk like Nelson of which I have basically zero upturn, I'd rather throw in my own youth players.

    At the same time it's come to light from various sources that the Sancho transfer has shown a way for young players to gain top flier first team action in a foreign country, instead of playing in the second division domestically.

    I'd much rather see a young attacking talent loaned out to Bremen, Frankfurt, Hoffenheim, etc. than see them at Fulham, Cardiff or Derby.
     
  7. Garrincha

    Garrincha Wilf Zaha Aficionado

    Is it not too high a level right now for Nelson?

    The goals without context make the loan look good but when you see the breakdown, progression over the season & nearly identical total senior minutes as 17/18 with us (where he also had 900+ minutes PL2)... looks misjudged by both clubs & the player.
     
  8. krengon

    krengon One Arsene Wenger Trusted

  9. Toby Andrl

    Toby Andrl Part Time Stuttgart Fan Trusted

    I think the loan was rather unimpressive for a variety of reasons but regarding the level it's the right one. No one expects him to set the world alight as Sancho did, but he should definitely be able to play a good role at a German midtable club when it clicks - or else I would be very wary about his ability to play for Arsenal.

    I definitely also think that he should go to a settled team with a positive brand of football as it will be easier for him to settle and break into the team. Don't think a promotion seeking or relegation fighting team that has to be very pragmatic overall would be a good choice.

    Staying in the Bundesliga after having had this first season to acclimatize to league and country would probably also be a good choice. Sancho also needed one season to really come into the fold of Dortmund's first team/first XI. Nelson won't have to adjust to either the style of the Championship or the Premier League, but can remain in the league he's played last season in, so you take away all the adjusting. If the quality is there he then should be a lot more settled in to quickly hit some form and significant game time than this season at Hoffenheim.

    If a right fit can be found in terms of playing style, with the higher quality of the Bundesliga and a season under his belt in that league I feel like another loan to Germany would be the vastly better option than joining a Championship team. I don't think it makes much sense to just shift youngsters around from a midtable German team, to a promotion fighting lower tier team and then to a relegation fighting top flight team. There's no real strategy as to what you actually want to achieve with such loans except hoping the loanees get minutes somehow. Some consistency in loan choices be it league, team, playing style, etc. can only help the younger players.
     
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  10. krackpot

    krackpot Well-Known Member

    Thank you mate. Much appreciated. Will start researching the history and lineup.
     
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  11. Kobi

    Kobi I Know Who You Are

    I am more interested in the club they go to tbh, I don't think the league matters too much (assuming the standard is close).
    The problem is we just send our young players anywhere without any thought of how they fit into the structure of the chosen club and how many minutes they are likely to get.
    Also how closely the players role would resemble the role we see him playing in the future.

    Instead we send a promising young winger to a club/manager which doesn't play with wingers, what a wonderful bit of planning that was.
    We also loaned an exciting young winger to Tony f*cking Pulis, no wonder he left.
    How many games was ESR realistically going to get from that loan?
    If you aren't going to send him somewhere he will play you may as well keep him here like City did with Foden, he couldn't have been any worse than that Elneny Guendouzi partnership.

    Everything this club do is so ill-thought through and badly managed.
    Do they actually plan anything?
     
  12. Toby Andrl

    Toby Andrl Part Time Stuttgart Fan Trusted

    Of course the club is important, but the league shouldn't be taken out of the equation. I mean you yourself say "assuming the standard is close". That's where I think loaning players rather close to the verge of breaking into the first team to lower leagues doesn't make sense. The standard of Ligue 1 or 1. Bundesliga is much closer the the english top level than the Championship.

    And as I said before if you are not 100% sure that the player will get played consistently, relegation battling or promotion searching teams are the worst options you can loan young players out to.

    You sometimes get that feeling but especially with the Nelson and the Smith-Rowe loans I feel the club tried to do the right thing. Hoffenheim and Leipzig are known to promote and use young players as well as play positive football. If you look at last season and how Gnabry - a winger but basically pretty much a technical and well rounded attacker, very similarly to Nelson - fared in Hoffenheim's free flowing attacking three it's certainly not foreign to think Reiss would be a good fit for them.
    ESR is very much an attacking midfielder in the mold of Forsberg and Sabitzer whom are both deadset starters in their usual 4222 system, so it's also not a foreign thought to think they will know what kind of player ESR is and that they can use him. They also promote youth.

    Don't think this is so important as long as the clubs agree on what kind of player someone is. E.g. it didn't help Nelson much to play as a right wingback under Wenger, but the difference between playing a more natural wide role or a more striker inspired role in an attacking trio isn't so big that I'd say a loan was not an option.

    If you're alluding to Nelson at Hoffenheim I have to disagree. At Arsenal in a 4231 he'd probably play as a more natural winger, but I don't think this role is so far off the attacker role in Hoffenheim's system and with Emery's often used 3421 it's exactly the same role as the 2 behind the striker here, which is where he'd have played if he had been here.

    His loan not working out as hoped is also down to a lot more than system. Firstly there's been consistent reports about Nelson not applying himself enough behind closed doors. Then there's Hoffenheim's own situation: The whole team knew the manager was leaving at the end of the season and it's been looming over them forever. Last season they were fighting for CL qualification, this season was hampered by the news of Nagelsmann leaving, injuries, a horrible CL campaign, etc. They struggled more and fared worse than they anticipated and this just creates a situation in which the manager will resort to some sort of pragmatism, e.g. he'll rather field go to players he knows he can completely trust and who are more likely to perform than a 19-year old loanee with an as of now questionable work ethic. If Hoffenheim's season hadn't been the struggle it ended up being, Nelson would've definitely gotten more minutes - I'm pretty sure of that. I can't really blame Arsenal for making a bad loan destination choice as I just don't see that in this case.

    That was of course idiotic and much more testament to non strategic loaning than the Nelson and ESR loans.

    ESR is not really a central midfielder in the mold of Guendouzi or Elneny. He's definitely more of an attacker and his competition would've been Aubameyang ("out wide"), Özil, Mkhi, Ramsey, Iwobi.
    He didn't play much because he went over there injured and now that he's just become fit and joined training again he was instantly nominated for their squad and either Rangnick or Mintzlaff lauded him publicly. Also, I don't know if it's been officially confirmed by now, but afaik the loan was intended as a 1.5 year loan from the get go, meaning ESR will spend next season at Leipzig, too. So that definitely makes sense and he will get game time. As for why he might not get a lot of game time during the rest of this season: They still need to seal CL quali and have Forsberg back from injury so it's clear Rangnick is rather opting for the experienced star players right now. Though, I'm pretty sure once their CL quali is done and dusted, we will probably see a cameo by ESR in the last or maybe even last two games.

    I very much agree on past loan deals but cannot really see it with the Nelson and ESR loans.
     
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  13. Kobi

    Kobi I Know Who You Are

    All fair points and obviously you have a better knowledge of the German side of things than I do.
    Whenever I have seen Hoffenheim they have used a 352 (532) system with wingbacks and two strikers, didn't they use Gnabry as a striker?

    I know they have tried the same with Reiss but he doesn't have Gnabry's strength and raw power I don't think his finishing is as good either, they're very different.
    He's an out and out wide player.

    ESR is different and I agree with your assessment on him/Leipzig, my issue was more that they're a similar level to us if he was going to be loaned out I'd have thought dropping down a level to get some games would have been more logical.
    Although I know Forsberg is injured alot.

    I agree with you on his position as well the Elneny thing was more that in that particular game we desperately needed someone deeper with the skill to beat the first press, who knows?
    I'd rather have had him as a squad option for us than squad option for Leipzig that was all I was saying.
     
  14. Toby Andrl

    Toby Andrl Part Time Stuttgart Fan Trusted

    It depends. They use a 352 with two more clearcut striker types up top or a 523/5221 which is more fluid and in which Nelson could've fitted very well as one of the three attackers.
     
  15. Arseshavin

    Arseshavin New Member

    I have to say, it's ****ing stupid to compare Jadon Sancho with Reiss Nelson. Who already played in the Bundesliga last year? Who plays for a far better team? Exactly, Sancho. Who, on the other hand, has a far higher goals per minute ratio, playing for a weaker team? Yes, it's Reiss. He's going to be a star, and hopefully for us. His ability to find pockets of space for himself is very good, he has buckets of pace, and he's already great on the ball. It's always going to be harder to establish yourself and play well on loan than if you're already in the first team at your own club. It's a learning lesson for Reiss, that football is not always about doing the perfect dribble, finding space or scoring a goal; it's also about running your guts out to press the opposition, and defensive graft and structure, amongst other.
     
  16. Wrighty4eva

    Wrighty4eva Well-Known Member

    All this loan talk is pointless anyway he will be in our squad next season. Wait and see.
     
  17. Arseshavin

    Arseshavin New Member

    Now that I think about it, it seems Wenger was trying to give Reiss the same lesson by playing him as a wing-back.
     
  18. BobP

    BobP Favre Fan

    Some interesting comments from Per regarding Nelson:

    This tells me that Nelson may spend next season on loan, which I would not be against.

    The rest of the article is pretty interesting, bit of a focus from Per on holistic development.

    https://www.goal.com/en/news/hoffen...s-ready-to-star-at/1eljnytvmvatg1fiyy9h0mzh7x
     
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  19. MutableEarth

    MutableEarth Bloody awesome NSFW avatars Trusted

    It would be good for him to play regularly - but I would be disappointed if he's sent back out on loan. Think there should be plenty of minutes here for him, but hopefully a loan will provide a lot more starts.
     
  20. NieThePiet

    NieThePiet Loves Overhyping Our Rivals

    Werder doesn't make much sense to be fair. Maybe there is a small chance if Kruse will leave the club and we will change to a formation with 2 real wingers and a striker.

    At the moment there is only one winger (like Nelson) in the first 11 - Rashica and he will surely will not start ahead of him. A fit Bartels as Back-Up and looks like we are signing a youth Schalke Winger for free.

    Really have no idea where Nelson would start week for week, it's never easy for loan players.

    On the one hand he has to play every week (the same with Saka and Amaechi), on the other hand we will not buy 2 or more wingers in summer. So it's would be very helpful if at least one would be a part of the team for the next season.
    Think we should take all for the pre-season tour and in the same time, we have to find loan clubs for at least 2 of them.

    Some Bundesliga clubs are searching a new coach at the moment, Hertha with an offensive coach could be an option.
     
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