• ! ! ! IMPORTANT MESSAGE ! ! !

    Discussions about police investigations

    In light of recent developments about a player from Premier League being arrested and until there is an official announcement, ALL users should refrain from discussing or speculating about situations around personal off-pitch matters related to any Arsenal player. This is to protect you and the forum.

    Users who disregard this reminder will be issued warnings and their posts will get deleted from public.

Ronaldo caught up in rape allegation

Rex Stone

Long live the fighters
Trusted ⭐

Country: Wales
Isn't it a bit weird for there to be a document for something like that? Pretty naive.

His own lawyers aren’t arguing it’s validity. Their argument is leaking it is illegal.

It’s got his own signature on. Mate, he’s done.
 

Rex Stone

Long live the fighters
Trusted ⭐

Country: Wales
Is this gonna amount to anything?

No. The document is inadmissible because it was leaked and he’s never gonna be stupid enough to get himself extradited to the USA for trial. He’d be looking at the death penalty or life in prison.

At worst he’ll do what Roman Polanski did and be forced to remain in Portugal for the rest of his life where he won’t be extradited.

So as usual it’s a bit more nuanced than innocent till proven guilty as he can avoid a trial.
 

Aevi

Hale End FC
Moderator
Also as for everyone on here saying innocent until proven guilty, the guy admits it in an internal memo to his own lawyer.

It’s cut and dry. He did it. Inadmissible as the evidence may be.
I don't disagree there, don't get me wrong. That statement is very damning; it's nothing short of a confession and in that case you don't really need a trial to come to a conclusion.

My post was more on the issue itself, which I guess I should have made more clear. Innocent until proven guilty should still be the universal approach to these situations and I'm very concerned about the fact that I've seen people challenge that concept. That's the point I'm challenging.

Again, I do think it's a difficult issue because as you've pointed out, powerful people are capable of sweeping real cases under the rug so it's not like it's easy to treat all these trials equally.
 

Aevi

Hale End FC
Moderator
Saying 'innocent until proven guilty' doesn't make sense since nobody said he should be thrown in prison immediately. All people are saying is that accusations should be taken seriously and investigated so the facts in this case come to light.

Also, is there an example of a public figure whose reputation/career was ruined by a false allegation? People often say this without citing any names.
Nobody here may have stated that, but many people outside of this site are assuming guilt on these sorts of cases and that's what I was talking about when I replied to North's post. It was my opinion on a general topic, not on anyone here.

On the second point, I do have a personal anecdote. I do loosely know of someone who was accused of rape and proved to not have done so. Apparently the girl was trying to get back at him for I'm not sure what. I don't know all the details on how that conclusion was reached, but irrespective of that, it was concluded he was innocent and yet he lost many of his friends over it. He was treated like **** while the case was open and there is no reversing that. He lost touch with them, got really depressed, and even though I believe the girl also didn't fare well I'm sure he doesn't find much solace in that.

I don't think you even need a real example to reach a conclusion like this though, I'd think it's obvious. There are people who are genuinely convinced that people should take the woman's side in rape cases and have the men prove their innocence, and that's deeply concerning. If people are automatically taking sides like that, it says a lot about their regard for the alleged suspect's reputation.
 

A_G

Rice Rice Baby 🎼🎵
A-M CL Draft Campeón 🏆
Nobody here may have stated that, but many people outside of this site are assuming guilt on these sorts of cases and that's what I was talking about when I replied to North's post. It was my opinion on a general topic, not on anyone here.
But in the Ronaldo case, the email from his lawyer might be the reason why. Nobody can say for sure that he is guilty, it would be wrong to do so until/unless new evidence comes to light but based on what we do know it doesn't look good for him.
On the second point, I do have a personal anecdote. I do loosely know of someone who was accused of rape and proved to not have done so. Apparently the girl was trying to get back at him for I'm not sure what. I don't know all the details on how that conclusion was reached, but irrespective of that, it was concluded he was innocent and yet he lost many of his friends over it. He was treated like **** while the case was open and there is no reversing that. He lost touch with them, got really depressed, and even though I believe the girl also didn't fare well I'm sure he doesn't find much solace in that.
I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, it absolutely does. But going after a public figure, especially someone with the profile of Ronaldo is a different story altogether. Many of these accusers get doxxed, death threats etc. Why you put yourself through all that bother with a false allegation?
I don't think you even need a real example to reach a conclusion like this though, I'd think it's obvious. On a related note, there are people who are genuinely convinced that people should take the woman's side in rape cases and have the men prove their innocence, and that's deeply concerning. If people are automatically taking sides like that, it says a lot about their regard for the alleged suspect's reputation.
It's not about taking sides though. There's a cultural shift taking place from a time when women weren't believed, to now when allegations are taken seriously. When people say they believe the victims it doesn't mean lock up the accused without any sort of investigation. Nobody should just presume guilt with every single allegation. That's as ridiculous as saying that every allegation is made up. Just look at the facts of the case and let due process take its course.
 

Aevi

Hale End FC
Moderator
It's not about taking sides though. There's a cultural shift taking place from a time when women weren't believed, to now when allegations are taken seriously. When people say they believe the victims it doesn't mean lock up the accused without any sort of investigation. Nobody should just presume guilt with every single allegation. That's as ridiculous as saying that every allegation is made up. Just look at the facts of the case and let due process take its course.
I fully support that and am glad it's happening.

You'd be surprised though, I have legitimately heard multiple people say we should be presuming guilt and that's what I'm talking about. There are people who legitimately hold extreme opinions like this and they are pushing a good thing beyond where it needs to be. It worries me immensely. Seriously, I'm not talking 2 or 3 people, I've heard it argued many times recently and as you say, it's ridiculous.
 

blaze_of_glory

Moderator
Moderator

Country: Canada
Also worth mentioning that just because something can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in court doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Of course you can't charge someone in such circumstances, but neither should we just blindly accept that they are innocent. This is of particular relevance in these cases where their very nature means there will almost never be witnesses. So almost always reasonable doubt, but very easy for someone to get away with something because of this.
 

blaze_of_glory

Moderator
Moderator

Country: Canada
We can draw our own conclusions from the facts presented to us, even if a court cannot convict.

This is why I've mentioned before that the courts are not well suited to finding the truth in these cases, unfortunately.
 

Aevi

Hale End FC
Moderator
We can draw our own conclusions from the facts presented to us, even if a court cannot convict.

This is why I've mentioned before that the courts are not well suited to finding the truth in these cases, unfortunately.
We can, but you make it sound simpler than it is. It is not uncommon for people to make large assumptions based on limited facts. It happens all the time, and it's common with cases like this. People act like things are open and shut when they might not be. There is no harm in saying you don't know instead of spreading assumptions to other people as if they're indisputable truths.

I think that's my qualm. Imo, you're entitled to your opinion, but it isn't right to talk about it as if it's fact, as people often do.

I don't know, I can't say I'm entirely sure of what to think here. It's a sensitive subject.
 

El Granit-Coq

Established Member
No, we're not. ****ing ridiculous statement. What are you saying, assume everyone's guilty? People jumped to conclusions about Ched Evans and look what happened there.

You're making it very hard for me not to patronise you... You're actually arguing about a ****ing handful of people who were innocent against millions of rape victims. You weigh such a miniscule detail and fail to even grasp the bigger picture.

It's not about an individual, it's about an endemic issue that plagues most men. The thought that you are warranted sex because a woman slept naked in bed with you, the thought that you don't pull out even when she begs you to (and laugh about it with the lads).

Yes, in cases of rape allegations I tend to believe the victim until the accused is proven guilty. We are not moving into an age where we have abandoned all sense of justice, no one is saying everyone is guilty until proven innocent, don't #alllivesmatter this ****. We are specifically talking about rape and in most cases, the accused is normally guilty.

You're a ****ing intelligent guy, how can you go by such hyperbolic statements?
 

El Granit-Coq

Established Member
We can, but you make it sound simpler than it is. It is not uncommon for people to make large assumptions based on limited facts. It happens all the time, and it's common with cases like this. People act like things are open and shut when they might not be, and I personally really dislike when people do this. There is no harm in saying you don't know instead of spreading assumptions to other people as if they're indisputable truths.

I think that's my qualm. Imo, you're entitled to your opinion, but it isn't right to talk about it as if it's fact, as people often do.

I don't know, I can't say I'm entirely sure of what to think here. It's a sensitive subject.

This is not an issue of subjectivity. Someone posted a statistic not too long ago about how many rape allegations were true Vs false. You cannot say that whomever supports the victim is using limited evidence as facts.

You simply need to acknowledge that this is not a recent issue, the rich have always gotten away with sexual savagery and the victims have often never been willing enough to come forth, when they do, they are ridiculed. I grew up in Tanzania and the mentality of some of the people I knew with what I know now we're absolutely repulsive. I remember someone saying that if a girl got them horny and refused to have sex with him, he would do it anyway. And this is not just a lone individual.

This is so much bigger than Ronaldo that what I can articulate will never be enough to cover. You must acknowledge that a lot of men have it in them to be rapists. And a lot of accusations have been true. The fact that a celebrity is in the focus should not deter from the accusation. She is not out for his money nor are the victims enjoy good publicity as fans will crucify the accuser.

We can have subjective discussions about a lot of things, Ronaldo Vs Messi etc - but this isn't one of those issues. Things like racism, toxic masculinity etc are not subjective debates. Just because you don't experience racism minority does not mean you can dismiss it.

Note that like @American_Gooner , I am not saying that Ronaldo or anyone accused of rape should be jailed, I am simply saying that it's very rarely a case of someone simply making an accusation for the sake of it.
 

blaze_of_glory

Moderator
Moderator

Country: Canada
We can, but you make it sound simpler than it is. It is not uncommon for people to make large assumptions based on limited facts. It happens all the time, and it's common with cases like this. People act like things are open and shut when they might not be, and I personally really dislike when people do this. There is no harm in saying you don't know instead of spreading assumptions to other people as if they're indisputable truths.

I think that's my qualm. Imo, you're entitled to your opinion, but it isn't right to talk about it as if it's fact, as people often do.

I don't know, I can't say I'm entirely sure of what to think here. It's a sensitive subject.
Absolutely. I'm mostly going on the fact he is on record as saying she said no and then he apologized though. Really hard to look past that.
 

El Duderino

That's, like, your opinion, man.
Moderator
Not only is this ridiculously false, it perpetrates a very bad image for men.

I've been married 20 years, does that mean I can a** f*** my wife without her consent? I mean, she's said yes to so much already?

I've not finished reading the thread, but thank you for this.
 

razörist

Soft With The Ladies, Hard With The Mes

Country: Morocco
Either way Cristiano’s life in the spotlight should be done. Everyone is just trying to save themselves now, from Nike and EA toning down their CR7 exposure to Juventus desperately protecting the huge investment they made.

I wouldn’t be suprised if Florentino Perez somehow knew this was all coming and let Ronaldo go because of it. He’s always been smarter than everyone else.

Guilty or not, there is no coming back from that leaked e-mail. Pitchforks are already out in his native Portugal, after what he meant for those people. It won’t be better in the rest of the world. He probably will not get proven guilty or serve time, but you can’t wash this kind of stink off.

Still hope its somehow all not true. After the alledged victim, I feel most hurt for Cristiano JR. He didn’t sign up for this, but he will experience what a cold world this can be.
 

Tosker

Does Not Hate Foreigners
as a woman, can I just throw into the mix over presumed innocence/guilty the fact that women are much more likely to be believed, by police and juries, if they have sustained physical injuries, and yet to avoid such injuries the instinct is to not resist and hope it's soon over

Hence the low rate of reporting rape, and the even lower rate of conviction - and why men may occasionally think the woman is consenting

the only answer to this is for women to learn to say no very firmly, and men to accept it
 

Taxi Driver

Well-Known Member
Also worth mentioning that just because something can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in court doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Of course you can't charge someone in such circumstances, but neither should we just blindly accept that they are innocent. This is of particular relevance in these cases where their very nature means there will almost never be witnesses. So almost always reasonable doubt, but very easy for someone to get away with something because of this.

You realize, however, that this concept is the very cornerstone of modern civilization? I suggest watching 12 Angry Men - and I do not mean it in a patronizing way, it's a genuinely brilliant movie, that explores this topic very well.

There's a price to it, of course, but you simply cannot have a fair judicial system without it. Here's what happens otherwise:

China’s conviction rate is commonly well above 99 per cent, with 778 acquittals and 1.184 million convictions being recorded in 2014.

The principle of “innocent until proven guilty” has been implemented across the Chinese judicial system, the Supreme People’s Court’s top official added, reported the China Daily.

Source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...ct-more-than-99.9-per-cent-of-defendants.html
 

Latest posts+

Top Bottom