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The Great Squad Cost Thread

Squad cost?


  • Total voters
    58

Slartibartfast

CIES Loyalist
You've forgotten that people think it gives Wenger something of a get out clause for not winning the league, which causes the usual suspects to get a bit angry . . . and as you can see from @RoadrunnerReloaded 's post a great deal arrogance to boot. :lol:

:lol::lol:

Well, Abramovich bought Chelsea in June 2003, work began on the new Arsenal stadium in February 2004, Arsenal won the title in May 2004 and the Abu Dhabi United investment group took over Manchester City in the summer of 2008. Seems like a pretty reasonable circumstantial case. But maybe what's happened since is just coincidence.
 

RoadrunnerReloaded

Active Member
You've forgotten that people think it gives Wenger something of a get out clause for not winning the league, which causes the usual suspects to get a bit angry . . . and as you can see from @RoadrunnerReloaded 's post a great deal arrogance to boot. :lol:

What are you talking? Where is the arrogance?

You like making assertions without backing them up. I question your logic of applying the home grown rule to excuse squad cost correlation for European competitions and you refuse to answer and simply start name calling? Elite posting there mate!

And not knowing how Atletico is spelled is not a typo its ignorance as you misspelled their name twice in one post.

But I guess you should go tell all the Moderators here they are jerks for correcting people spelling Carzola
 
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RoadrunnerReloaded

Active Member
:lol::lol:

Well, Abramovich bought Chelsea in June 2003, work began on the new Arsenal stadium in February 2004, Arsenal won the title in May 2004 and the Abu Dhabi United investment group took over Manchester City in the summer of 2008. Seems like a pretty reasonable circumstantial case. But maybe what's happened since is just coincidence.

No one has ever failed to acknowledge that more money increases the chance of winning the biggest trophies.

That is a complete strawman that @Makingtrax uses to deflect from the more nuanced critiques and deeper facts that have been presented that show the limits of trying to reduce everything to squad cost.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
:lol::lol:

Well, Abramovich bought Chelsea in June 2003, work began on the new Arsenal stadium in February 2004, Arsenal won the title in May 2004 and the Abu Dhabi United investment group took over Manchester City in the summer of 2008. Seems like a pretty reasonable circumstantial case. But maybe what's happened since is just coincidence.
:lol: Coincidence . . . . that could explain it. Holding my hands up here, never thought of that.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
What are you talking? Where is the arrogance?

You like making assertions without backing them up. I question your logic of applying the home grown rule to excuse squad cost correlation for European competitions and you refuse to answer and simply start name calling? Elite posting there mate!

And not knowing how Atletico is spelled is not a typo its ignorance as you misspelled their name twice in one post.

But I guess you should go tell all the Moderators here they are jerks for correcting people spelling Cazorla (not Carzola ffs)
Ok I can't spell, a straw man and constantly using excuses. Now give it a rest ffs.
 

Slartibartfast

CIES Loyalist
No one has ever failed to acknowledge that more money increases the chance of winning the biggest trophies.

That is a complete strawman that @Makingtrax uses to deflect from the more nuanced critiques and deeper facts that have been presented that show the limits of trying to reduce everything to squad cost.

Well, I don't know anything about that. But I don't think there's any doubt that the timing of years of spending restrictions to pay for the new stadium combined with the sudden monster spending by other clubs was the key factor in moving those clubs generally past Arsenal in the league table. Chelsea and Manchester City's success could hardly be chalked up to the manager since neither club has kept a manager for all that long.

At the same time, I think Arsenal would have been in a much better place if not for those years of spending restrictions. Building a squad is complicated and you can't do it overnight without a boatload of money. You can criticize Wenger for some bad personnel decisions over the years (as you can any other manager). The situation called for taking chances on developing some young talent and part of that talent didn't work out as hoped or expected. But the main factor has always been (and continues to be to some extent) the difference in monetary resources. Arsenal is in a position to be more financially competitive now (although they'll never have the same virtually unlimited resources), but it takes time.

Honestly, I'm not even sure why this is an argument. Maybe one of these days I'll go back over the previous pages and maybe get a better idea of it all.
 

Batman

Head of the Wayne foundation for benching Nketiah

Country: USA

Player:Saliba
I haven't read any other page of this thread so I don't really know what the debate is, but this would seem to be simple common sense. No statistical analysis required. Money buys you the best players. And even if you make mistakes, money can buy your way out of it. Not sure how anybody could make a reasonable argument otherwise. You can be competitive by being creative, but money makes it easy.
The argument comes because the President of the Wenger fan club who champions this argument has got absolutely nothing in the way of explaining why even with money the exact same problems as those that took place in the truly lean years are present. The obvious answer is the manager but since it is impossible for this particular poster to be objective in that regard the excuses are plowed into squad cost.

All of this despite the fact that we've seen clubs with a fraction of our resources win the league and challenge for the league in recent years (Leicester and Tottenham) not to mention clubs like Atletico and Dortmund who have done more domestically and in Europe with greater financial disadvantages relative to the biggest clubs in their leagues. Then all of a sudden squad cost isn't the be all and end all because it doesn't suit the "Nothing is ever Wenger's fault" agenda. That's really the argument in a nutshell. An unreasonable borderline troll who can't be objective pushing the same tired and flawed excuse when things go awry.
 

GeorgiaGunner

#FreeClaude
No one has ever failed to acknowledge that more money increases the chance of winning the biggest trophies.

That is a complete strawman that @Makingtrax uses to deflect from the more nuanced critiques and deeper facts that have been presented that show the limits of trying to reduce everything to squad cost.
Well said mate.

It's AM's version of the "my adversary is literally Hitler" fallacy.
 

GeorgiaGunner

#FreeClaude
The argument comes because the President of the Wenger fan club who champions this argument has got absolutely nothing in the way of explaining why even with money the exact same problems as those that took place in the truly lean years are present. The obvious answer is the manager but since it is impossible for this particular poster to be objective in that regard the excuses are plowed into squad cost.

All of this despite the fact that we've seen clubs with a fraction of our resources win the league and challenge for the league in recent years (Leicester and Tottenham) not to mention clubs like Atletico and Dortmund who have done more domestically and in Europe with greater financial disadvantages relative to the biggest clubs in their leagues. Then all of a sudden squad cost isn't the be all and end all because it doesn't suit the "Nothing is ever Wenger's fault" agenda. That's really the argument in a nutshell. An unreasonable borderline troll who can't be objective pushing the same tired and flawed excuse when things go awry.
Also perfectly said.

The 'AKB/WOB' showdowns almost invariably end in drubbings, but the last couple pages of this thread have been particularly lopsided.
 

XDitto

New Member
So... According to the squad cost theory and all the statistics, what is the probably for Wenger to have not won the league even once for the last god knows how many years? And what is the probability for Arsenal to win the league this year?
 

Mark Tobias

Mr. Agreeable
So... According to the squad cost theory and all the statistics, what is the probably for Wenger to have not won the league even once for the last god knows how many years? And what is the probability for Arsenal to win the league this year?
Oh lord
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
The argument comes because the President of the Wenger fan club who champions this argument has got absolutely nothing in the way of explaining why even with money the exact same problems as those that took place in the truly lean years are present. The obvious answer is the manager but since it is impossible for this particular poster to be objective in that regard the excuses are plowed into squad cost.

All of this despite the fact that we've seen clubs with a fraction of our resources win the league and challenge for the league in recent years (Leicester and Tottenham) not to mention clubs like Atletico and Dortmund who have done more domestically and in Europe with greater financial disadvantages relative to the biggest clubs in their leagues. Then all of a sudden squad cost isn't the be all and end all because it doesn't suit the "Nothing is ever Wenger's fault" agenda. That's really the argument in a nutshell. An unreasonable borderline troll who can't be objective pushing the same tired and flawed excuse when things go awry.
What a steaming pile of dog sh*te.

Since I first raised the fact that Wenger might have actually been performing above his squad costs from 2004 right up until 2016/17, I have been subjected to a torrent of insults, abuse, posts questioning my motives, character assassination, taunting, questioning of my sources, and called strawman over and over. Oh and even picking up on my spelling mistakes ffs.

A year later it's still going on because you cannot stand to see the truth.

All the things you mentioned do not discredit my posts. How often do I have to tell you that Leicester winning the the league once in a lifetime does not discredit the idea the idea that money wins you leagues most of time. It just shows you understand nothing about probability. Tottenham have a good manager but have still won nothing against money.

Atletico and Dortmund do not discredit the idea that money wins leagues. They have won very little in their countries compared to the super rich.

And you cannot criticise squad cost across countries. The reasons why English clubs don't do well in CL these days have been the subject of many articles to do with number games played, breaks v non breaks, technical dominance of certain nationalities, recruitment, ownership, etc. It's a whole other discussion as I tried to tell that other arrogant ****er @RoadrunnerReloaded.

Most people who come on here and have anything decent to say about Wenger get bullied off pretty quickly. That's why you and your sh*tty posts get likes. But I've been here a while and all attempts to humiliate me have failed, so **** off @Batman and next time try posting something intelligent.
 
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Mark Tobias

Mr. Agreeable
Most people who come on here and have anything decent to say about Wenger get bullied off pretty quickly. That's why you and your sh*tty posts get likes. But I've been here a while and all attempts to humiliate me have failed, .
Whatever you may think of trax, his resilience is second to none. And I commend that. We wouldn't have anything worthy of debate without both sides and trax is one of the few mainstays to the AKB side of the coin.
 

Slartibartfast

CIES Loyalist
All of this despite the fact that we've seen clubs with a fraction of our resources win the league and challenge for the league in recent years (Leicester and Tottenham)

Well, I think this goes back to the point I made earlier. When finances were very tight, Arsenal was forced to sell a few of their top players and take chances on young talent from clubs such as Southampton. Not all this talent worked out (and you can blame Wenger for that, although to be fair no manager gets it right all the time). What complicated things for Arsenal was that they signed some of these players to such lucrative contracts that they've had trouble moving them on and clearing out the squad. This has tied their hands both in terms of having room for new players and, more importantly (as we saw this summer), being able to fit in these spiraling salaries. Again, maybe you can blame Wenger for that, although I don't know the inner workings of the club and just who is ultimately responsible for deciding on salaries. But had Arsenal had the virtually unlimited resources of some of these other clubs, none of this would have been a problem. So it still goes back to the money.

As for Leicester and Tottenham, neither of those clubs has sustained success over any period of time. Arsenal has. Leicester went from relegation fodder to champions in one season. Then they dropped back to 12th and they're clearly a mid-table club. What they did was an aberration, not the result of some great plan. The manager that won the title didn't even make it through the next season.

Sp**s have won nothing of any consequence since the FA Cup in 1991. Before that you have to go back another 30 years for a league title. And they've been no closer to challenging for a title recently than has Arsenal. In fact, last season was the first time they've finished above Arsenal since Wenger took over more than two decades ago. And they still finished seven points behind Chelsea.

So basically you're just cherry-picking.
 

RoadrunnerReloaded

Active Member
What a steaming pile of dog sh*te.

Since I first raised the fact that Wenger might have actually been performing above his squad costs from 2004 right up until 2016/17, I have been subjected to a torrent of insults, abuse, posts questioning my motives, character assassination, taunting, questioning of my sources, and called strawman over and over. Oh and even picking up on my spelling mistakes ffs.

What a load of tosh.
Since my original Roadrunner account was active I have not seen you receive any insults, abuse or "character assassination". I have however seen many people question your logic and application of facts and then you are the one who lets loose all the insults, abuse and character assassination.

Just like this post. You are far more insulting and offensive to Batman and myself than either of us have ever been to you. So stop trying to play the ****ing victim when you are the one who starts the insults and wind ups.

And here I will continue to point out the logical fallacies in your writing for posterity.

All the things you mentioned do not discredit my posts. How often do I have to tell you that Leicester winning the the league once in a lifetime does not discredit the idea the idea that money wins you leagues most of time. It just shows you understand nothing about probability. Tottenham have a good manager but have still won nothing against money.

Atletico and Dortmund do not discredit the idea that money wins leagues. They have won very little in their countries compared to the super rich.

This is a red herring. No one ever said Leicester winning the discredits the "idea that money gives you greater chance to win the league".
Rather Leicester gets brought up because they didn't win the league by flipping a coin 38 times. It wasn't random chance that they won they league (or Montpelier won Ligue 1, or Deportivo La liga, or Dortmund BL or Monaco over PSG etc). Those might be more rare events than the richest team winning but they are not events that are the result of random chance.

Each of those underdog teams winning had things click together correctly. That is why those keep getting brought up. They get brought up because they are all examples of club and footballing structures that are better than ours and that we could and should be learning from, not hand waving away as statistical anomalies at the poker table.

The reason people keep disagreeing with you is because you can't seem to acknowledge their actual opinion but instead grandstand with logical fallacies.

And you cannot criticise squad cost across countries. The reasons why English clubs don't do well in CL these days have been the subject of many articles to do with number games played, breaks v non breaks, technical dominance of certain nationalities, recruitment, ownership, etc. It's a whole other discussion as I tried to tell that other arrogant ****er @RoadrunnerReloaded

Ignoring your unnecessary personal insults, this is you making a massive assertion without providing any actual evidence. You are asserting that squad cost are literally irrelevant in European competitions "across countries" yet then you just list a lot of random factors that I am sure you have not actually studied in any meaningful detail. You also tried to bring up the HG rule as a reason to completely dismiss performance vs. squad cost in European competitions but never defended that assertion. I find it interesting that you believe other factors can render squad cost completely irrelevant in your mind for EL and CL.


Most people who come on here and have anything decent to say about Wenger get bullied off pretty quickly. That's why you and your sh*tty posts get likes. But I've been here a while and all attempts to humiliate me have failed, so **** off @Batman and next time try posting something intelligent.

And again, ignoring your pointless personal insults, this is just not an accurate reflection of reality.

You try to spin things like a politician that anyone with a "decent" opinion gets "bullied"? What a load of complete nonsense.

The only one doing any "bullying" here is you trying to bully me and @Batman. No one with a reasonable opinion gets bullied and if you really think they do go report them ffs.
 
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RoadrunnerReloaded

Active Member
As for Leicester and Tottenham, neither of those clubs has sustained success over any period of time. Arsenal has.

As I said earlier this is where if you use the economic argument to argue that Wenger is not a failure then by that same logic you can't call Wenger's period a sustained "success" either because we have been top 4 in squad cost and wages over pretty much that entire period. So people can't have it both ways.
 

Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
And here I will continue to point out the logical fallacies in your writing for posterity.
:lol::lol::lol: Your arrogance knows no bounds.

You're not even thinking about what your saying. How can a team Like Leicester be Championship level/epl relegation fodder, then win the league and then go back to being relegation fodder and sacking their manager, if it's good club organisation? Makes no sense.

There's been many theories as to why that anomaly occurred, including all those penalties, 1-0 wins, referees buying into the dream, unusual underdog momentum. But one thing's for sure it was a very rare event and because of that it is much more likely that it was a fluke.

But more importantly you have absolutely no proof that Leicester did not win by chance and the evidence is more likely against you.

And your suggestion that such a club is better organised than ours, who have maintained an incredible level of high consistence for over 20 years, is frankly ridiculous.

I've acknowledged your opinion and found it to be wanting with explanations.
 
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Makingtrax

Worships in the house of Wenger 🙏
Trusted ⭐

Country: England

Player:Saliba
Since my original Roadrunner account was active I have not seen you receive any insults, abuse or "character assassination". I have however seen many people question your logic and application of facts and then you are the one who lets loose all the insults, abuse and character assassination.
That's just an out and out lie ffs. :lol:
 
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