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The Heart Ripped Out of Arsenal
- Thread starter RocktheCasbah
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Exiled In Newcastle
Established Member
The words knee and jerk spring to mind.
- Thread starter
- #3
RocktheCasbah
Established Member
That's your opinion, mate, this is mine. I saw some brilliant football played on Saturday, but what I also saw was a team that doesn't know how to respond to adversity, a team that lacks the fight to come back when in trouble. And it isn't new.
Not all criticism is knee jerk. I've thought about this for ages, I've thought about whether I wanted to say publicly what I feel privately. Ultimtaely it would be wrong of me not to. Note that I haven't advocating sacking Wenger, I'm just asking for the players to get themselves sorted out.
Not all criticism is knee jerk. I've thought about this for ages, I've thought about whether I wanted to say publicly what I feel privately. Ultimtaely it would be wrong of me not to. Note that I haven't advocating sacking Wenger, I'm just asking for the players to get themselves sorted out.
Exiled In Newcastle
Established Member
You're saying the teamhas no guts because of one result.
Did they have no guts in the two games against the chavs? Or against Newcastle and Fulham? If you can convince me of that then you've got a point but basing it on one away game doesn't cut it.
I'd also take your challenge and say very clearly that the qualities needed in a captain have changed because footballers have changed. If Frank was captain today do you think he'd get away with pinning players to the wall and threatening to batter them if they didn't perform? Or going out deliberately to take out their star player to 'show leadership'?
Footballs changed and you can't compare era's. Even TA realised he had to change his style of captaining the team!
Did they have no guts in the two games against the chavs? Or against Newcastle and Fulham? If you can convince me of that then you've got a point but basing it on one away game doesn't cut it.
I'd also take your challenge and say very clearly that the qualities needed in a captain have changed because footballers have changed. If Frank was captain today do you think he'd get away with pinning players to the wall and threatening to batter them if they didn't perform? Or going out deliberately to take out their star player to 'show leadership'?
Footballs changed and you can't compare era's. Even TA realised he had to change his style of captaining the team!
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- #5
RocktheCasbah
Established Member
ExiledInNewcastle said:
I didn't see any signs that the players believed they could get back into the game at Chelsea, either. Nor games like Bolton away, Manchester United away. Maybe it's an away thing, I don't know, you're right to say that they showed bottle at home to the barcodes. But even then, if it wasn't for a soft penalty the result may have been different. As for Fulham, Fulham were on a hiding to nothing after the Chelsea game, everyone in the ground knew that. Even after they scored.
As for the captaincy bit, I think you may have missed my point, I wasn't really talking about the style of captaincy- though a bit of blood and thunder might shake the boys up a little- more the fact that Frank and his team were aware of how special Arsenal is as a club. And that they realised they were lucky to be at Arsenal, and were inspired by their surroundings. Patrick certainly didn't feel lucky to be at Arsenal did he? Does Thierry, when he knows he could go and earn £120k p/wk at Real Madrid? Or Chelsea...
Exiled In Newcastle
Established Member
I'd say in the chav game we fought as hard as they did but they got the luck. Take that out of the equation and we were the better team.
As for Newcastle - well if we're talking about guts then the result isn't important. It's whether the team displayed guts and they did. And whilst Fulham may have been 'on a hiding to nothing' but surely it takes guts to pull yourself back after a defeat against your main rival?
OK, you can comment on the Boro game, but a gutless team is a gutless team every week, not just from time to time.
"It was Frank who single-handedly lit the fuse for Highbury’s most famous night ever, that 3-0 win at home to Anderlecht in 1970. Now the BT Cellnet stadium or whatever it’s called in September 2005 might be a long way away from Highbury in April 1970, but I defy anyone reading this to tell me that the principles of leading a team have changed."
As I said it has. Whatever field you're working in these days management (which in a broader sense is what being captain is) is different to what it was 30 years ago.
As for the 'special' thing - well I think Thierry for one has demonstrated often enough (if nothing else by his knowledge of the clubs history) that he is very aware. If money was his main aim he would have left us a couple of years ago. Vieira knew how lucky he was to be at Arsenal or he would have left before he was finally pushed out of the door. And from the way other players talk about the club you can tell they know it's something special.
As for Newcastle - well if we're talking about guts then the result isn't important. It's whether the team displayed guts and they did. And whilst Fulham may have been 'on a hiding to nothing' but surely it takes guts to pull yourself back after a defeat against your main rival?
OK, you can comment on the Boro game, but a gutless team is a gutless team every week, not just from time to time.
"It was Frank who single-handedly lit the fuse for Highbury’s most famous night ever, that 3-0 win at home to Anderlecht in 1970. Now the BT Cellnet stadium or whatever it’s called in September 2005 might be a long way away from Highbury in April 1970, but I defy anyone reading this to tell me that the principles of leading a team have changed."
As I said it has. Whatever field you're working in these days management (which in a broader sense is what being captain is) is different to what it was 30 years ago.
As for the 'special' thing - well I think Thierry for one has demonstrated often enough (if nothing else by his knowledge of the clubs history) that he is very aware. If money was his main aim he would have left us a couple of years ago. Vieira knew how lucky he was to be at Arsenal or he would have left before he was finally pushed out of the door. And from the way other players talk about the club you can tell they know it's something special.
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- #7
RocktheCasbah
Established Member
Yes, but once Chelsea scored, did you think the game was over? I think the players did, or maybe they were just strangled by Chelsea's defence, who knows?
I don't think a gutless team is a gutless team every week. Not at all. Look at Arsenal's games against the main rivals over the last couple of seasons. How many of them have we won? Not many, right? Is that because we're worse than Chelsea or United? I don't think we are, so why aren't we winning those games? Could it not be because we have a set of players who, unlike Chelsea and United's lot, aren't prepared to do whatever it takes to win? Look at the two times we got ahead of Chelsea last season, they pegged us back. Twice. That took guts (and set pieces, another story..) I think we have a very talented side, and I love watching them, but it seems to me that we find it difficult to overcome a little adversity these days.
I feel really, though, that we have got off what was intended as the main thrust of my piece, which is the fact that Arsenal's first XI needs some leadership. Who are the on pitch leaders? Is Dennis currently defined as captain simply because he wears the armband? Or does he do the captain's job?
I don't think a gutless team is a gutless team every week. Not at all. Look at Arsenal's games against the main rivals over the last couple of seasons. How many of them have we won? Not many, right? Is that because we're worse than Chelsea or United? I don't think we are, so why aren't we winning those games? Could it not be because we have a set of players who, unlike Chelsea and United's lot, aren't prepared to do whatever it takes to win? Look at the two times we got ahead of Chelsea last season, they pegged us back. Twice. That took guts (and set pieces, another story..) I think we have a very talented side, and I love watching them, but it seems to me that we find it difficult to overcome a little adversity these days.
I feel really, though, that we have got off what was intended as the main thrust of my piece, which is the fact that Arsenal's first XI needs some leadership. Who are the on pitch leaders? Is Dennis currently defined as captain simply because he wears the armband? Or does he do the captain's job?
Exiled In Newcastle
Established Member
Firstly I'm going to go off piste about games with the other top teams. It's a strange thing that in English football the pretenders normally beat the top team. It's been that way as long as I can remember. In the late 90's/early 00's we had the better of results against the mancs whilst they won three titles. I could go back further but it does appear to be an enduring feature of English football.
Anyway, back to the points. Gutless is gutless and is either there or not. A gutless team doesn't have guts the next week.
Now for the captaincy. The days of ranting captains are over (as I said even TA realised that) because it wouldn't get them anywhere. If we were having this conversation in 2003 then many many people would say that Vieira wasn't a natural leader because of what they thought they saw on the pitch, but now he's gone ... Despite what many people were seeing the players looked up to him as captain and leader without exception. Leadership is different now and what players need from their captain is different. It's about far more than the 90 on the pitch.
Personally I think a striker should never be captain (whoever they may be) because a striker has to worry about his own game. Personally I think Gilbertowould make a great (modern) captain as he does far more talking than people notice already.
Anyway, back to the points. Gutless is gutless and is either there or not. A gutless team doesn't have guts the next week.
Now for the captaincy. The days of ranting captains are over (as I said even TA realised that) because it wouldn't get them anywhere. If we were having this conversation in 2003 then many many people would say that Vieira wasn't a natural leader because of what they thought they saw on the pitch, but now he's gone ... Despite what many people were seeing the players looked up to him as captain and leader without exception. Leadership is different now and what players need from their captain is different. It's about far more than the 90 on the pitch.
Personally I think a striker should never be captain (whoever they may be) because a striker has to worry about his own game. Personally I think Gilbertowould make a great (modern) captain as he does far more talking than people notice already.
Mark
Established Member
ExiledInNewcastle said:
That's something I've noticed. In the earlier Wenger days we did very well against United most of the time even though they were doing better than us and winning the trophies. In recent years we have been a much better team than them, and yet, we haven't beaten them for f*cking ages now.
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- #10
RocktheCasbah
Established Member
We still haven't established who the leaders of this team are at present, I think that's my main problem. Who is the guy that turns around, maybe like Zidane did at Euro 2004 (maybe WC02?), and says "Right, we're a goal down, what are we gonna do about it?"
Completely agree about not having a striker as captain. It seems stupid to me, but there again who else was there capable of taking the job on? Which kind of brings me back to the original point..
Completely agree about not having a striker as captain. It seems stupid to me, but there again who else was there capable of taking the job on? Which kind of brings me back to the original point..
Exiled In Newcastle
Established Member
But did Zizou do that by shouting and clattering people, or quiet gee ups and his own performance?
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- #12
RocktheCasbah
Established Member
Well, if I remember right, he did it by getting the entire team in a huddle before they restarted and telling them what he wanted. My point being that he showed visible leadership, now I don't know what Dennis, or Thierry or whoever say on the pitch, to be fair. But I'm willing to bet that 99/100 they're more worried about there own game then captaining the side.
Exiled In Newcastle
Established Member
1 example that you can't equate to games where there are no breaks for extra time. That's the one image you remember so it seems that he was showing leadership. Now I don't doubt he did but apart from that he did it by his own play.
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- #14
RocktheCasbah
Established Member
That was after a goal, I think.
But yeah, I see where you're coming from, though I would say that it's difficult to inspire others with your play, if you're having a stinker. Thierry at Chelsea being an obvious example.
I say stinker- he wasn't that bad, but he didn't play well.
But yeah, I see where you're coming from, though I would say that it's difficult to inspire others with your play, if you're having a stinker. Thierry at Chelsea being an obvious example.
I say stinker- he wasn't that bad, but he didn't play well.
Canuck
Established Member
I personally feel very conflicted when the subject of our team not having heart comes up. Mainly because I find it hard to actually identify any players in the squad who don't have heart, who don't work hard and want to win. They all do. Though it does seem that we are lacking some real motivation when the going gets tough. Someone to say 'hold the line.' When we get pushed, someone to push back.
The 'boro match showed that when we are down it's very hard for our players to confidently play the game that Wenger expects of them. But I did not see a team that had folded, I didn't see anyone give up!
I have to agree with Exiled on a couple points. The days of the raving maniac captain exhorting his team on have fallen by the wayside for the most part. The modern game and it's egos have moved on. Secondly that strikers really have too much to worry about in regards to their own game to try and expect them to worry about mentally carrying the team as well. Though who would Wenger have been able to pick other than Titi? Sol wasn't playing enough, Freddie I don't thing has as much pull in the dressing room that Patrick or Thierry seem to, Gilberto or Jens? Maybe, Dennis? he's wore the armband before but can you justify/expect him to play enough? It's a tough call but I think Wenger did what he thought was right. For better or worse.
Exiled, you say Gilberto talks it up more than people notice? I hope he manages to take it up another level. It will be nice to have Sol back for numerous reasons. The team still has heart. We just need the senior players to, as a group, step up (and not just in their gameplay but to take more leadership responsibilities on.) I realize that saying we didn't have x and y playing is not an excuse. But you have to admit that having Sol and Freddie on the pitch gives us two experienced players who aren't shy about speaking their mind or showing their hard side.
The 'boro match showed that when we are down it's very hard for our players to confidently play the game that Wenger expects of them. But I did not see a team that had folded, I didn't see anyone give up!
I have to agree with Exiled on a couple points. The days of the raving maniac captain exhorting his team on have fallen by the wayside for the most part. The modern game and it's egos have moved on. Secondly that strikers really have too much to worry about in regards to their own game to try and expect them to worry about mentally carrying the team as well. Though who would Wenger have been able to pick other than Titi? Sol wasn't playing enough, Freddie I don't thing has as much pull in the dressing room that Patrick or Thierry seem to, Gilberto or Jens? Maybe, Dennis? he's wore the armband before but can you justify/expect him to play enough? It's a tough call but I think Wenger did what he thought was right. For better or worse.
Exiled, you say Gilberto talks it up more than people notice? I hope he manages to take it up another level. It will be nice to have Sol back for numerous reasons. The team still has heart. We just need the senior players to, as a group, step up (and not just in their gameplay but to take more leadership responsibilities on.) I realize that saying we didn't have x and y playing is not an excuse. But you have to admit that having Sol and Freddie on the pitch gives us two experienced players who aren't shy about speaking their mind or showing their hard side.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Define Heart.
If you equate heart to words.. then Arsenal have heart in depth.
If you equate heart to actions.. then Arsenal are lacking where and when it really counts.
--
The turning points in games usually favour the team who wants it more.
Hunger is a very visable thing, you either have it or not.
Edge is a very visable thing, you either have it or not.
When Henry is hungry and is at his edge, then he unstoppable..
As a captain, he needs an edge, because this era.. captaincy is only as good as the performance on the pitch, you can't tell everyone else to wake up and play well, if you aren't playing well.
Zidane led by performance on every stage, and everyone responded.
Gerrard led by performance vs Milan, he went on.. and while they were lucky imo. He displayed battle and bottle and forced something out of nothing.
That is the tempo for a captain..
Before a game, I'll hear Reyes say his piece, amongst others.. on the pitch.. that talk is subdued at best, because in motion.. they are simply playing, not fighting.
And whats worse.. Arsenal players.. are fighting simply to not lose, rather then fighting with the true intent of winning. It's been a long while since i've seen Arsenal go ALL OUT to win a football match, that no matter what.. they are just going to keep going as hard as they can..
Incidentally, it was probably that 5-3 against boro.. That's a fight back.
That's not giving up. That's self belief. That's lacking today.
If you equate heart to words.. then Arsenal have heart in depth.
If you equate heart to actions.. then Arsenal are lacking where and when it really counts.
--
The turning points in games usually favour the team who wants it more.
Hunger is a very visable thing, you either have it or not.
Edge is a very visable thing, you either have it or not.
When Henry is hungry and is at his edge, then he unstoppable..
As a captain, he needs an edge, because this era.. captaincy is only as good as the performance on the pitch, you can't tell everyone else to wake up and play well, if you aren't playing well.
Zidane led by performance on every stage, and everyone responded.
Gerrard led by performance vs Milan, he went on.. and while they were lucky imo. He displayed battle and bottle and forced something out of nothing.
That is the tempo for a captain..
Before a game, I'll hear Reyes say his piece, amongst others.. on the pitch.. that talk is subdued at best, because in motion.. they are simply playing, not fighting.
And whats worse.. Arsenal players.. are fighting simply to not lose, rather then fighting with the true intent of winning. It's been a long while since i've seen Arsenal go ALL OUT to win a football match, that no matter what.. they are just going to keep going as hard as they can..
Incidentally, it was probably that 5-3 against boro.. That's a fight back.
That's not giving up. That's self belief. That's lacking today.
- Thread starter
- #17
RocktheCasbah
Established Member
Just as a PostScript, I've had quite 5 or 6 messsages agreeing with this article. More than I've ever had! Not that I think it makes me right, you know for every message I get agreeing with me, there's 100 who don't- but I think it's clear nerves have been touched...
Sammer
Established Member
RtC,
this is a pretty harsh arcticle and although I can somehow relate to a few points, I feel that there is some criticism undeserved.
For instance, you claim that Wenger is too loyal to players. Well, when you look at the squad depth in recent years, you realized that we did not have the squad depth of other european top teams to rotate players as a measure of "education".
And even if there was, Wenger chose a different way than e.g. Hitzfeld, Fergie and other top coaches. As a businessmen he would probably believe in flat hierarchies and it has payed him back in most cases.
Wenger goes for a style, that has created the best football europe has seen in recent years, but it also makes him vulnerable when he sticks to his plan in tough times.
this is a pretty harsh arcticle and although I can somehow relate to a few points, I feel that there is some criticism undeserved.
For instance, you claim that Wenger is too loyal to players. Well, when you look at the squad depth in recent years, you realized that we did not have the squad depth of other european top teams to rotate players as a measure of "education".
And even if there was, Wenger chose a different way than e.g. Hitzfeld, Fergie and other top coaches. As a businessmen he would probably believe in flat hierarchies and it has payed him back in most cases.
Wenger goes for a style, that has created the best football europe has seen in recent years, but it also makes him vulnerable when he sticks to his plan in tough times.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Little late in the day isn't it..
- Thread starter
- #20
RocktheCasbah
Established Member
Sammer- I spent enough time defending this piece at the time it was written. Looking back at it now, I can see why some think I've been too harsh, I would say that I believe that I had valid criticisms at the time and I would also say that some of those criticisms still apply.
But that's just my opinion.
But that's just my opinion.
