The Koscielny Dilemma

Discussion in 'Arsenal Talk' started by dafish, Sep 18, 2011.

  1. dafish

    dafish New Member

    It's been a while since I've posted! (several yrs actually).

    Anyways, Kos has been one of the most controversial arsenal players of recent memory and I have a little theory why. There are several things that he does EXTREMELY well. Enough to get him a national team callup anyways. However he is also unbelievably weak at other areas. This discrepancy between is positive and negative attributes is what is causing so much argument among he fans about whether or not he is any good for Arsenal.

    The "+":
    •good attitude-fights for the ball non-stop. Doesn't give up in face of humiliation.
    •stopper-not many players get the better of him dribbling.
    •physical-lacking in upper body strength, but makes up with speed and tenacity. Surprisingly good jump for his height.

    The "-":
    •poor positioning-mert has shown lacking speed is not a prob if u can read a game well. Kos has been caught out of position far too often to start for a top3 team
    •strength- under certain scenarios nothing but sheer overwhelming strength will do. Even the manc's Valencia looks more muscular than Kos ATM. He seems to have buffed up a bit but still not good enough.
    •technique- his first touch is weak, leading to various gifts in key positions to the opposition almost every match. His passing is also not quite where it should be.

    Because his positives are VERY strong, but his weaknesses are VERY weak, he's a bit of a dilemma whether or not even the youth/reserves might do better in some scenarios. However, he makes a adequate backup for Verminator for now.
     
  2. Bossa

    Bossa New Member

    Ship DJ and Squillaci out. Have this guy as a 4th choice. + we sign Cahill on a free. This guy is too inconsistent and not made for the EPL imo.
     
  3. Chass

    Chass New Member

    Completely agree. I think he could be a great player for France and a top club abroad but is certainly not built for the PL. It seems as though he has his better games against the more intelligent strikers but when up against powerfully built strikers he really does struggle alot.

    We need more of an english backbone (or just more hardmen such as Vertonghen)to compliment our warriors' Sagna and Vermaelen. Hopefully Bartley will come back ready next season.
     
  4. Irish_Owen

    Irish_Owen New Member Elite

    Vermaelen/Mertersacker/Cahill/Koscielny would be a much more balanced a competent group of centre backs. As a first choice centre half however, Laurent massively worries me.

    I wouldn't be up for selling him, at all, becuase his potential is there for all to see. And with time, as he gets balked up and gets more experience, and maybe learns to caught out the errors that have led to the majority of his criticism, he could be a great centre back.

    But Arséne has put in a situation were he was most likely going to struggle, and he can't take the majority of the blame he's been getting.
     
  5. DJ_Markstar

    DJ_Markstar Well-Known Member

    I don't agree that he is technically poor and I think he has a wonderful passing range for a CB, although he needs to become more reliable on that front. I agree with the OP on the remaining points.I also think his pace is massively underrated.

    All in all, there is a very classy defender lurking in there waiting to come out - but he is too inconsistent right now.
     
  6. DanDare

    DanDare Spreading positive vibes

    I think it is impossible to really assess the quality of any of our defenders in the brainless defensive system we have at the moment. The fact Sagna looks good defensively I think speaks volumes about how good he really is.
     
  7. viper_001

    viper_001 New Member

    The Koscielny dilemma? :lol: How about the Arsenal defensive disaster? We could have a time machine and have a prime CB pairing of Beckenbauer and Tony Adams and we'd still ship goals... why?


    1 - Zonal marking. Garbage garbage garbage. Why do we even attempt this?

    2 - High defensive line with no pressing from the midfield? No tracking back from the wingers and strikers? Let's not try to be Barcelona if we can't get the basics right.

    Those two very glaring holes are what will plague us until we get to the root of them. Neither have to do with signing new players, but bringing in a defensive coach and playing to our strengths. We can still play a passing style, but if we want to ship less goals we'll have to be defensively compact and make our plays from the back. Song needs to stop thinking he's the black Zidane, and we need to start man marking on set pieces.

    Right now our off the ball movement is disgusting. Hopefully we pull it together this season.
     
  8. Bossa

    Bossa New Member

    You forgot our horrible offside trap. Its so horrible to see us attempt these offside traps. Its like watching Russian roulette.
     
  9. bertlb2

    bertlb2 New Member

    He is a very good player. I rate his dedication and his fearlessness. He is an asset we must keep, given the other options we have. In a good defensive set-up, he will shine. I actually think Thomas and Laurent will be the starting CB pairing, and not Per and Thomas.

    I am a big fan of Laurent
     
  10. DJ_Markstar

    DJ_Markstar Well-Known Member

    I don't know why we persist with it - it's possible to hold a high line to squeeze play without playing an aggressive offside trap with it. I think everyone is agreed here that an offside trap without a pressing midfield just isn't going to work - so why does Wenger persist with it?
     
  11. mo50

    mo50 Active Member Elite

    I wrote my thoughts in the thread the other day. All I'll say is I don't rate him at all. He's got too many flaws to become a top class CB.
     
  12. raidersoftheark

    raidersoftheark New Member

    I think Koscielny is a good player who would fare a hell of a lot better with a proper commander alongside him and genuine defensive tactics drilled into him. He always plays well with Vermaelen next to him, in any case.

    He's not perfect but we have plenty of worse players and bigger issues further up the hierarchy.
     
  13. MDGoonah41

    MDGoonah41 New Member

    the problem seems predicated largely on communication.

    Our fullbacks too often end up too deep, which short circuits the trap, and our two centerbacks are often times out of position and seemingly oblivious to what is happening around them.

    TV is at least more vocal, but he can't stay fit, so why even discuss him?

    At some point its more about coaching and fundamentals than it is the physical attributes of the player. A proper defense requires 4 players (and really the midfield too) to be in harmony and understand each other. Our defense clearly does not have this.

    BRING BACK KEOWN
     
  14. celestis

    celestis Arsenal-Mania Veteran Moderator

    Koscielny technically and physically is fine , mentally he is absolute ****e . Lose concentration as many times as he has over a course of a game is inexcusable .
     
  15. Rain Dance

    Rain Dance Well-Known Member Trusted

    there are so many things Wenger persists of doing even though its wrong...
     
  16. dafish

    dafish New Member

    1. Man U actually had the best zonal marking I've ever seen a team perform back when Queiroz was asst. manager. their CBs and CMs would sandwich any attacking player with the ball and most players in the EPL don't have the technique to get away with the little space their given. Any type of defense will work to some degree if players are deployed correctly, leading to the point of...

    2. having only 1 DM in Song/Frimpong is suicide, especially when the EPL seems to have started an attacking trend with lower teams coming into the EPL and having a go at their oppositions, while stronger teams needless to say are decent in attack no matter what. 1 DM is not enough to cover the backline, especially with the way Arsenal defend. Ramsey hardly helps his own reputation by being a lazy defender. Even Arshavin helps out more.

    Pressing is a whole team effort and you can see villa and inesta closing down the opponents almost as much as Puyol. Arsenal needs better attitude and work ethic to do this.
     
  17. outlaw_member

    outlaw_member New Member

    I agree, Ramsey's a pretty lazy defender for a box-to-box midfielder.
     
  18. law90026

    law90026 Well-Known Member

    Kos has some very good qualities to his game. His interceptions, when he is on, are pretty good and he has technical ability.

    I think he's not suited for the English game though, hence why his performances tend to be better against the technical sides in the CL. We have too many technical players in our defence, it would be really great to see someone like Samba just be a brute in the middle.
     
  19. yuvken

    yuvken New Member Elite

    Is this the dilemma? Kos or youth?

    Kos is inconsistent. That much is true. However, the analysis suggested by many is a bit desperate, and almost always simplistic.

    Facts are - he's climbed from Z level very quickly, and it is not easily determined what the consequences of such FF rise may be. Inconsistency is hardly surprising. He does have some strong positives, and, perhaps significantly different from DJ, they don't seem like a fluke.

    I have a feeling (more crap analysis alert!) he's always better when he can face the game, and thus have time to prepare his move - good at intercepting, getting to his man, even in the air (though not really tall or strong). I think he drops a lot when he has to react quickly or instinctively in messy situations (though not in messi ones :) ) and (extreme crap analysis alert) I always thought his spatial orientation needs a stabilizer (I remember seeing him go all vertigo with one high ball that passed him and returned to the box from the other side (wigan game it was? not sure).

    Bottom line? inconsistent, yeah, but not one of our "ship" list. no way.

    I still fail to see the "dilemma", at least the way it is introduced here.
     
  20. qs

    qs New Member Elite

    Kos is a talented player but when you look at his lack of experience and the lack of defensive coaching at Arsenal its always going to be a mess. Its no coincidence his best performances have come when he's played with Vermaelen.
     

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