The Midfield Enigma

[El Granit-Coq]

I stand by wanting Xhaka over Kante.

Fact of the matter is that it's much harder to find a player like Xhaka as opposed to the Kante type all action midfielder.

Hell, just a few months ago, Leicester bought Ndidi who has been impressive.

Furthermore, you've got players like Kessie and Keita who we have been linked to.

If we get Keita, i will forget about Kante.

 

[blaise]

If we want Keita we need to strike fast before bigger fish come, Pep will surely look for midfielders.

 

[Garrincha]

Didn't Chelsea play 4 2 3 1 with inconsistent results and got beaten by us 3-0 with a 4 2 31 and Kante getting turned on a six pence in midfield? Didn't Kante look ordinary vs a Spain team in a 4 2 31 alongside Bakayoko?

I think he is a good player, but I think people are overestimating the impact he would have on our set up. He also needs to be in a team that defends well as a unit Chelsea don't really press and have a good team shape. They are willing to give possession to the opposition. Leicester were even more extreme in that sense.

How do you think he would fair in our set up? We put our midfielders in a position to be bypassed by opposition counters. There is no way he would be putting up the same numbers in our team.

I didn't see the Spain game but feel Chelsea were a mess playing an unnaturally attacking formation.

In our 4-2-3-1 with Özil #10 I would want Kante with another similar mobile defensive minded player against any half decent opposition. Maybe it would require Walcott being replace with a player more comfortable on the ball to compensate & more responsibility on Özil to drop deeper.

Its ridiculous how easily we are ran through & how often our defence are exposed. I would prefer a formation change but with four attackers the midfield two needs to be defensive minded & mobile enough to put out fires.

 

[Impact]

Kanté's a very good player but I think we are at risk of overrating him. He does what Coquelin does at a level (or two - due to Coquelin's drop in form) higher. That's it.

He has excelled at Chelsea because Conte has tasked him with focusing on just that. He's still a passenger in the build-up. While Chelsea's system masks his weaknesses, when he plays for France you see his limitations.

Very good destroyer playing in a strong team with a role designed to suit his strengths.

 

[4R5Emaniac]

Kanté's a very good player but I think we are at risk of overrating him. He does what Coquelin does at a level (or two - due to Coquelin's drop in form) higher. That's it.

He has excelled at Chelsea because Conte has tasked him with focusing on just that. He's still a passenger in the build-up. While Chelsea's system masks his weaknesses, when he plays for France you see his limitations.

Very good destroyer playing in a strong team with a role designed to suit his strengths.

He has pretty good off the ball running and movement box to box compared to Coq though. Has the engine for it and power. Coquelin is not that strong and athletic. I agree though we are reaching overrating level. I guess because its easy to think Kante would be the perfect partner for Xhaka in theory.

 

[hydrofluoric acid]

Nobody is overrating Kanté. He is the best midfielder in the league and was it next season too. We could have probably signed him if we tried hard enough.

Comparing Coquelin to Kanté is a no go. Kanté destroys the fraud in comparision and in fact he is better than all our midfielders.

Only on Arsenal forum you see people underrating the best midfielder in the league to justify us not signing him. "Ohh Coquelin can do the same job so we don't need him". "Meh he is overrated, Coquelin does the same job". FFS...

 

[4R5Emaniac]

Nobody is overrating Kanté. He is the best midfielder in the league and was it next season too. We could have probably signed him if we tried hard enough.

Comparing Coquelin to Kanté is a no go. Kanté destroys the fraud in comparision and in fact he is better than all our midfielders.

Only on Arsenal forum you see people underrating the best midfielder in the league to justify us not signing him. "Ohh Coquelin can do the same job so we don't need him". "Meh he is overrated, Coquelin does the same job". FFS...

You are

 

[MutableEarth]

I stand by wanting Xhaka over Kante.

Fact of the matter is that it's much harder to find a player like Xhaka as opposed to the Kante type all action midfielder.

Hell, just a few months ago, Leicester bought Ndidi who has been impressive.

Furthermore, you've got players like Kessie and Keita who we have been linked to.

Yep, me too.

Signing both would have been ideal in the grand scheme but I strongly believe we needed a player closer to Xhaka stylistically - at least in terms of distribution. Someone capable of moving the ball forward and taking players out of the game, either by passing, dribbling or both. Xhaka, while limited, does the passing part very effectively.

Signing Kante instead would have made us a bit stronger defensively and given us more energy, but we would have sucked on the transition even more than we already do. Chelsea are set-up specifically to mitigate that kind of issue with a ball playing CB and two very attacking wing-backs flanking a creative attack. Arsenal, simply, are not. We would be pressed into mistakes before we even get the ball to Monreal, let alone Özil. Kante wouldn't solve that, and even Xhaka himself has struggled greatly because of this. With Kante, it would have been 10 times worse, and that's not a damning indictment on him because Kante is still a very good player. That's simply an issue of needs not being filled and a midfield setup that is seemingly as off the cuff as our attacking game.

 

[scytheavatar]

Signing both would have been ideal in the grand scheme but I strongly believe we needed a player closer to Xhaka stylistically - at least in terms of distribution. Someone capable of moving the ball forward and taking players out of the game, either by passing, dribbling or both. Xhaka, while limited, does the passing part very effectively.

Signing Kante instead would have made us a bit stronger defensively and given us more energy, but we would have sucked on the transition even more than we already do. Chelsea are set-up specifically to mitigate that kind of issue with a ball playing CB and two very attacking wing-backs flanking a creative attack. Arsenal, simply, are not. We would be pressed into mistakes before we even get the ball to Monreal, let alone Özil. Kante wouldn't solve that, and even Xhaka himself has struggled greatly because of this. With Kante, it would have been 10 times worse, and that's not a damning indictment on him because Kante is still a very good player. That's simply an issue of needs not being filled and a midfield setup that is seemingly as off the cuff as our attacking game.

We needed players who can pass the ball and keep possession when we are pressed. Cazorla could do that in spades. Xhaka can't. He has a good long pass but otherwise his passing game is questionable. Teams already know they can target Xhaka and win possession by pressing him. Xhaka needs to improve a lot over the next seasons if he still wants to have a place in our starting XI on the long run, because right now he's not good enough for us to build our midfield around him.

 

[MutableEarth]

We needed players who can pass the ball and keep possession when we are pressed. Cazorla could do that in spades. Xhaka can't. He has a good long pass but otherwise his passing game is questionable. Teams already know they can target Xhaka and win possession by pressing him. Xhaka needs to improve a lot over the next seasons if he still wants to have a place in our starting XI on the long run, because right now he's not good enough for us to build our midfield around him.

I don't disagree too strongly - perhaps only that Xhaka's passing game is questionable. He is a good passer, but it's a little difficult for that passing to have any strong effect when you receive the ball and the player who is meant to be closer to you to pass to (i.e. Coquelin) is in no position not only to receive but to affect possession in any way. It's not a surprise therefore that Xhaka's passing looks much better when Elneny is next to him, someone who's movement isn't detrimental to the approach play.

Cazorla has the dribbling ability to mitigate that and Xhaka doesn't, on that I agree. It still stands to reason that if you sign a player, you have to make sure you're going to emphasize the strong points in his game, and Xhaka unfortunately doesn't have that situation here. It is easy to say that we should have signed an all-rounder, but then people would complain that we have too many "jack-of-all-trades" players wh0 aren't particularly great at any one thing.

One thing is certain though - Wenger should have done more of his homework. He could have signed a more press-resistant player - whoever that would have been - but he chose Xhaka and decided not to complement him. I wouldn't say the signing is a bust, but Xhaka definitely has work to do to adapt.

 

[hydrofluoric acid]

You are

No I'm not. Where are I overrating him? When I say he is the best midfielder in league? Or when I say he is better than all our midfielders?

Both witch is true.

 

[4R5Emaniac]

No I'm not. Where are I overrating him? When I say he is the best midfielder in league? Or when I say he is better than all our midfielders?

Both witch is true.

I agree that he is better than our midfielders but being the best midfielder in the league is a bit reaching. Not that he is isn't one of the best but how do you come to the conclusion that he is the stand out untouchable best?

 

[hydrofluoric acid]

I agree that he is better than our midfielders but being the best midfielder in the league is a bit reaching. Not that he is isn't one of the best but how do you come to the conclusion that he is the stand out untouchable best?

I watch him play. Pundits watch him play. He is in the most teams of the season. He is a key player second year in a row for a team that is gonna win the league. Enough for me to consider him the best midfielder in the league.

 

[Erlis]

Kante is a mediocre player imo. There is nothing exceptional about that guy. I have watched him playing this season and from all that time I've spent watching Chelsea, I didn't find anything particular to mention Kante for.

 

[hydrofluoric acid]

Yep, me too.

Signing both would have been ideal in the grand scheme but I strongly believe we needed a player closer to Xhaka stylistically - at least in terms of distribution. Someone capable of moving the ball forward and taking players out of the game, either by passing, dribbling or both. Xhaka, while limited, does the passing part very effectively.

Signing Kante instead would have made us a bit stronger defensively and given us more energy, but we would have sucked on the transition even more than we already do. Chelsea are set-up specifically to mitigate that kind of issue with a ball playing CB and two very attacking wing-backs flanking a creative attack. Arsenal, simply, are not. We would be pressed into mistakes before we even get the ball to Monreal, let alone Özil. Kante wouldn't solve that, and even Xhaka himself has struggled greatly because of this. With Kante, it would have been 10 times worse, and that's not a damning indictment on him because Kante is still a very good player. That's simply an issue of needs not being filled and a midfield setup that is seemingly as off the cuff as our attacking game.

We have hardly improved in transition this season. Xhaka best games have all come against teams that sit deep and refuse to press us. Our problems with coping with pressure are still evident, while our defensive record has regressed this season.

I'm not even sure about the transition problem can only be solved by having some like Cazorla and Xhaka in the midfield. We do struggle a lot even with them in the midfield. Our transition problem is probably more linked to our playstyle and how we like to face the games than it can be fixed by just throw any good passer into the midfield.

 

[4R5Emaniac]

I watch him play. Pundits watch him play. He is in the most teams of the season. He is a key player second year in a row for a team that is gonna win the league. Enough for me to consider him the best midfielder in the league.

Pundits! Anyway, fair enough.

 

[SingmeasongSong]

He has pretty good off the ball running and movement box to box compared to Coq though. Has the engine for it and power. Coquelin is not that strong and athletic. I agree though we are reaching overrating level. I guess because its easy to think Kante would be the perfect partner for Xhaka in theory.

Honestly don't know if we are overrating anything this time !
Do not think quotes from some mayor players about Kante being the best mid currently on the planet are that exaggerated.
I rather think his other traits except from being the best at what coq does are underrated.
This guy is pretty much flawless what makes it even worse that we did not just sign him last year..

Does not mean there aren't many other highly talented midfielders out there at the moment. It's kinda weird that we constantly seem to have a problem in our midfield although it is the one position with abundant supply ...

Think a Verratti/Thiago + Kante pairing would currently be the gold standard in world football.

 

[4R5Emaniac]

Honestly don't know if we are overrating anything this time !
Do not think quotes from some mayor players about Kante being the best mid currently on the planet are that exaggerated.
I rather think his other traits except from being the best at what coq does are underrated.
This guy is pretty much flawless what makes it even worse that we did not just sign him last year..

Does not mean there aren't many other highly talented midfielders out there at the moment. It's kinda weird that we constantly seem to have a problem in our midfield although it is the one position with abundant supply ...

Think a Verratti/Thiago + Kante pairing would currently be the gold standard in world football.

Its an opinion thing really. I don't think Kante is the best midfielder in the world or that he is flawless. Also, Kroos, Modric, Vidal, Iniesta, Busquets etc are also superb along with Verratti and Thiago. Kante imo is not as good as them now is he? They have more technical quality and influence over the game than Kante. But yes they are complete as a team with Kante or someone similar by the side or behind them doing the dirty work.

 

[MutableEarth]

We have hardly improved in transition this season. Xhaka best games have all come against teams that sit deep and refuse to press us. Our problems with coping with pressure are still evident, while our defensive record has regressed this season.

I'm not even sure about the transition problem can only be solved by having some like Cazorla and Xhaka in the midfield. We do struggle a lot even with them in the midfield. Our transition problem is probably more linked to our playstyle and how we like to face the games than it can be fixed by just throw any good passer into the midfield.

I agree to a large extent but it serves to further cement my argument that if Xhaka - one of the best passers in the Bundesliga - has struggled as well as Cazorla to stabilize our midfield play on the ball then Kante would have fared far worse, and people would still be complaining about how unbalanced Arsenal is.

It is a systematic problem, not an individual one - which people seem to be trying their best to whittle it down to because it gives them a scapegoat. Xhaka is becoming one of those players sadly, and people are experience Grass Is Greener Syndrome in the case of Kante, a player who I certainly rate but was not the only immediate need in the case of our midfield and possession play.

 

[SiMamu]

Kante's just a poor man's 07/08 Flamini imo, anyway.