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The tactics thread

Toast

Established Member
Why can’t Willock be that pressing 10 instead? He has the engine and the physical presence that all other options do not possess. Even against Newcastle, Willock started at 10 but Emery has yet to trust him in that position again.
Willock
Xhaka-Torreira/Guendouzi

I think Willock can do it, but he's much better playing in a deeper role. The bigger question for me is why Emery insists on having that role when there is no player in the squad who is ideally suited to it.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
Guess this means pressure, and opportunity, for Ceballos to adapt and adjust to filling that role (pressing #10).
 

Divided_Pie

Active Member
I think yesterday was a good example of the general approach Emery is trying to implement. Now, this sort of analysis is not really my forte, but I'll have a go it. This is not meant to argue either for or against any or all of Emery's decisions, but merely to try to describe the type of setup he seemst to have in mind and the upsides and downsides to it, as I see them, and the implications specific roles have for certain players in our squad.

From 4-2-3-1 to 3-4-3
Despite pre-match reports of a 4-3-3, we still lined up in Emery's preferred 4-2-3-1. During the build up phase we maintained this shape, with Xhaka and Guendouzi forming a block in midfield. As we progressed from the middle-third into the final third our fullbacks both bombed forward, while Xhaka dropped back. Pepe and Saka both cut inside. So, in attack we formed a 3-4-3, with Kolasinac and Chambers providing width while the front three stayed largely within the tramlines.

wRQCNW3.png


When we lost possession we tried, and succeeded in the first half at least, to structurally press the opposition. Notably, it was the front four of Saka, Auba, Pepe and Ceballos who provided the impetus for this after the first few seconds. The rest of the team reformed into a 4-2-3-1 again.

Attacking and creating
As we know, Emery is fairly extreme in his insistence on wing play. That was evident again yesterday. The vast majority of our play went through the wings, with the fullbacks pushing up very high to provide a numerical overload. Guendouzi and Ceballos also drifted out relatively wide.

P9UFNS8.png


There are advantages and disadvantages to this approach. The main advantage is that we create numerical overloads out wide, which systematically sets players up to cross. I recall reading somewhere that Emery's philosophy is to create as many chances as possible, however small, which will inevitably lead to goals. Essentially, Emery's preferred method is to brute force a defence rather than lockpick it. So, we get out wide and we try to spam crosses. This does often work, especially if the ball falls to Auba (or Martinelli). Further, our emphasis on the wide areas means that turnovers usually occur in areas that are relatively safe. Losing the ball out wide instead of centrally normally gives the team a little more time, often sufficient time, to get back into shape.

Then, the negatives. It's not pretty. Spamming crosses can be effective, but it's rarely nice to look at. It is a highly structured, but very monotonous way of playing. Crucially, this emphasis on wing play means we have very little penetration from the middle of the pitch and, therefore, little variety to our play. It also means we rely on an accumulation of many small chances working out, rather than trying to create 'big chances' Further, the practice of overloading the wide areas can backfire. On the few occassions when somebody does screw up in the centre of the pitch, it is often deadly since two of our CMs and the FBs are not position to combat the eror. A wayward pass in the centre can often lead to a free run at the CBs. Human error is therefore brutally punished in this setup and we arguably have more error-prone players than most teams.

This, I think, is our route one to attacking the opposition: the structural creation of (low %) chances. Emery tries to supplement this with incidental (high %) chances through our press. We press high in order to create turnovers in dangerous areas. It is from these turnovers that we get our highest quality chances. The combination of the steady supply of low % chances from out wide and incidental high % chances from the centre are, in Emery's view at least, sufficient to make it highly likely that the opposition defence will eventually be forced open.

Square pegs and round holes
The above unfortunately has implications for a number of players in our squad. To my mind, these are Xhaka, Toreira and Özil.

First, the shifting of 4-2-3-1 to 3-4-3. If this is how Emery wants to play, it is more understandable why he prefers Xhaka - despite all our misgivings - over someone like Toreira or Guendouzi. Toreira lacks the height and Guendouzi lacks the positional discipline, for now. Xhaka is more adept to the role in that back three, though I think even Emery recognises he is not ideally suited. Chambers and Luiz should, on paper, be able to do the same and perhaps we'll see them deployed in that role at some point.

Second, the way we're set up to press means the #10 role must be occupied by someone willing and able to press, since those front four have to buy the time for the rest of the team to reset. Secondly, we rely on this pressing to create high quality turnovers. Last season Ramsey played this role, and he is arguably one of the most suited players in the world. This season, Emery is struggling to replicate the role. Ceballos can do it, but seemingly not for 90 minutes. So we see Toreira in that role, even though he blatantly lacks the technique to play that high up the pitch.

Third, the emphasis on wide areas. Özil does not fit Emery's system for two key reasons: a) he's not capable of executing the type of pressing Emery wants and b) Özil's game is all about getting lots of the ball in central areas in the final third. Emery's game systematically moves the ball away from this area. Özil and Emery are fundamentally incompatible. It is exceedingly likely that Özil has been told he needs to either change his game or take a seat, which seems entirely consistent with all the reports we have on that situation. Toreira will have been told the same, and is consequently trying to adapt his game to play higher up the pitch, albeit with limited success.
Great post.

This is why I don't really care to watch Arsenal matches any more: "the structural creation of (low %) chances." Who wants to watch that? Moreover, why would any talented attacking player want to play in that system? I'm sure Pepe regrets coming here, we all know what has happened to Özil, and Auba even looks fed up at this point.

A couple of other points: "We press high in order to create turnovers in dangerous areas." I think Emery mainly does that to avoid putting Xhaka, Luiz, and Sokratis under pressure - he's playing Torreira up at #10 to counteract Xhaka's deficiencies. But also, having Xhaka dropping in to the backline is not a great solution anyway because he lacks defensive awareness, tackling ability, and makes rash decisions.

He's ruined numerous players because he refuses to play them to their strengths and stubbornly persists with his ego-driven "structural creation of low % chances" strategy that is a dubious strategy at best. This method of trying to manufacture goals makes sense for a team lacking in attacking talent that makes up for it with hustle and grit, but it has no place in a big club - it didn't at PSG and it certainly doesn't at Arsenal.
 

Iceman10

Established Member
This is only AFTV, but surprisingly realistic and pragmatic when it comes to review of tactics after the home match against Bournemouth and an unexpected positive turn in outlook based on third place with one point off City (the major aberration being the two points dropped at Watford). Good points in there about ball carrying from the back to be significantly enhanced when we have Tierney, Bellerin, and Holding in, as well as what is being underestimated as to what we are missing up front with Laca out.

The realistic view is the performance against Bournemouth may well have been boring compared to Wenger days, and definitely was a match of two halves (one good, one not so good), but what may seem more on the boring and pragmatic side probably is reflective of a direction we are going to try to be more solid for when we play away matches.


On reflection, I would also say part of the problem is we went into the summer thinking solidifying our defence was the priority, but then we went and spent most of the transfer budget on Pepe, so people were obviously licking their lips anticipating explosive play up front that hasn't happened yet (Laca out, Pepe slow start) while ironically at the same time there are signs of tightening up at the back over the last 2-3 matches that everyone wanted to see after the end of last season.
 
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krackpot

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
I think yesterday was a good example of the general approach Emery is trying to implement. Now, this sort of analysis is not really my forte, but I'll have a go it. This is not meant to argue either for or against any or all of Emery's decisions, but merely to try to describe the type of setup he seemst to have in mind and the upsides and downsides to it, as I see them, and the implications specific roles have for certain players in our squad.

From 4-2-3-1 to 3-4-3
Despite pre-match reports of a 4-3-3, we still lined up in Emery's preferred 4-2-3-1. During the build up phase we maintained this shape, with Xhaka and Guendouzi forming a block in midfield. As we progressed from the middle-third into the final third our fullbacks both bombed forward, while Xhaka dropped back. Pepe and Saka both cut inside. So, in attack we formed a 3-4-3, with Kolasinac and Chambers providing width while the front three stayed largely within the tramlines.

wRQCNW3.png


When we lost possession we tried, and succeeded in the first half at least, to structurally press the opposition. Notably, it was the front four of Saka, Auba, Pepe and Ceballos who provided the impetus for this after the first few seconds. The rest of the team reformed into a 4-2-3-1 again.

Attacking and creating
As we know, Emery is fairly extreme in his insistence on wing play. That was evident again yesterday. The vast majority of our play went through the wings, with the fullbacks pushing up very high to provide a numerical overload. Guendouzi and Ceballos also drifted out relatively wide.

P9UFNS8.png


There are advantages and disadvantages to this approach. The main advantage is that we create numerical overloads out wide, which systematically sets players up to cross. I recall reading somewhere that Emery's philosophy is to create as many chances as possible, however small, which will inevitably lead to goals. Essentially, Emery's preferred method is to brute force a defence rather than lockpick it. So, we get out wide and we try to spam crosses. This does often work, especially if the ball falls to Auba (or Martinelli). Further, our emphasis on the wide areas means that turnovers usually occur in areas that are relatively safe. Losing the ball out wide instead of centrally normally gives the team a little more time, often sufficient time, to get back into shape.

Then, the negatives. It's not pretty. Spamming crosses can be effective, but it's rarely nice to look at. It is a highly structured, but very monotonous way of playing. Crucially, this emphasis on wing play means we have very little penetration from the middle of the pitch and, therefore, little variety to our play. It also means we rely on an accumulation of many small chances working out, rather than trying to create 'big chances' Further, the practice of overloading the wide areas can backfire. On the few occassions when somebody does screw up in the centre of the pitch, it is often deadly since two of our CMs and the FBs are not position to combat the eror. A wayward pass in the centre can often lead to a free run at the CBs. Human error is therefore brutally punished in this setup and we arguably have more error-prone players than most teams.

This, I think, is our route one to attacking the opposition: the structural creation of (low %) chances. Emery tries to supplement this with incidental (high %) chances through our press. We press high in order to create turnovers in dangerous areas. It is from these turnovers that we get our highest quality chances. The combination of the steady supply of low % chances from out wide and incidental high % chances from the centre are, in Emery's view at least, sufficient to make it highly likely that the opposition defence will eventually be forced open.

Square pegs and round holes
The above unfortunately has implications for a number of players in our squad. To my mind, these are Xhaka, Toreira and Özil.

First, the shifting of 4-2-3-1 to 3-4-3. If this is how Emery wants to play, it is more understandable why he prefers Xhaka - despite all our misgivings - over someone like Toreira or Guendouzi. Toreira lacks the height and Guendouzi lacks the positional discipline, for now. Xhaka is more adept to the role in that back three, though I think even Emery recognises he is not ideally suited. Chambers and Luiz should, on paper, be able to do the same and perhaps we'll see them deployed in that role at some point.

Second, the way we're set up to press means the #10 role must be occupied by someone willing and able to press, since those front four have to buy the time for the rest of the team to reset. Secondly, we rely on this pressing to create high quality turnovers. Last season Ramsey played this role, and he is arguably one of the most suited players in the world. This season, Emery is struggling to replicate the role. Ceballos can do it, but seemingly not for 90 minutes. So we see Toreira in that role, even though he blatantly lacks the technique to play that high up the pitch.

Third, the emphasis on wide areas. Özil does not fit Emery's system for two key reasons: a) he's not capable of executing the type of pressing Emery wants and b) Özil's game is all about getting lots of the ball in central areas in the final third. Emery's game systematically moves the ball away from this area. Özil and Emery are fundamentally incompatible. It is exceedingly likely that Özil has been told he needs to either change his game or take a seat, which seems entirely consistent with all the reports we have on that situation. Toreira will have been told the same, and is consequently trying to adapt his game to play higher up the pitch, albeit with limited success.
Great post.

Begs the question as to why Iwobi was sold then.
 

YeahBee

Terrible hot takes
How about Laca as the pressing10?

He is good at pressing and winning the ball but when he does it from CF he is knackered and doesnt make it to the box and is often subbed

Dani (or Özil) can be creative from the wing and their pressing will suffice vs wingers and fullbacks...
 

zilfy

Active Member
How about Laca as the pressing10?

He is good at pressing and winning the ball but when he does it from CF he is knackered and doesnt make it to the box and is often subbed

Dani (or Özil) can be creative from the wing and their pressing will suffice vs wingers and fullbacks...

I like this idea, definitely worth trialling at some stage. That way you get to keep auba in his best position, have a midfielder that can actually score goals, and actually have a 10 that can feed the front 3 instead of this 3 dms bollocks.

Is his passing good enough for a 10 though?
 

krackpot

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
Saka will be a far superior player than Iwobi could ever hope for. Iwobi has found his level. He'll do well for Everton.
Saka is very direct. Iwobi is more involved. Hope he does well.

I felt Iwobi was sold because he is a Wenger-style pass and move player.
 

pigge

#Pigge #Equality

Player:Martinelli
Saka will be a far superior player than Iwobi could ever hope for. Iwobi has found his level. He'll do well for Everton.
Cant believe we got £30m Up to £37m for him lol.
Well invested in saliba and martinelli. Elite business
 

Fallout

Active Member
i'm glad we sold for that price, but to be fair to him i dont think he was developed in the correct position. he never had the pace nor end product to be a winger.

imo he was a very interesting player outside the final third: great ball carrier and could also play a through ball. if he had been developed as an advanced midfielder, i'd say he would have had a better chance to make it. he also wasnt as bad in terms of defense and work rate as some people have claimed historically (imo).
 

say yes

forum master baiter

Interesting (if niche) read on how teams in the league like to play.

Along with Chelsea, we’re one of only two teams in the league absolutely determined to play out from the back at kickoff, rather than launching it for a 50-50 ball in the opponent’s half. Unlike Chelsea, it seems that we’re actually really good at it.

The hardcore, though, are Chelsea and Arsenal — the only sides who average five or more passes from kick-off. Chelsea tend to pass the ball around somewhat aimlessly at the back before then conceding possession cheaply, usually from goalkeeper Kepa Arrizabalaga or his compatriot Cesar Azpilicueta. They’re yet to work the ball into a promising position from kick-off.


Arsenal’s kick-offs have been the most eventful. Their patient approach has produced a good passing move away at Newcastle which led to Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang being flagged offside, a move against Burnley which got Nacho Monreal into an overlapping position to win a corner, and created a good chance for Alexandre Lacazette against Tottenham after first Sead Kolasinac and then Ainsley Maitland-Niles crossed. However, it also played into the hands of Liverpool’s press away at Anfield, when Fabinho robbed Joe Willock, below, and then his low cross forced Bernd Leno into immediate action.
 

Garrincha

Wilf Zaha Aficionado
Trusted ⭐
What does everyone think of Juan Matas interview this week where he stated the traditional creative #10 role behind the strikers is “extinct”?

https://thefootballfaithful.com/mata-manchester-united-chelsea-number-10-role-extinct/
Its a pretty dead position along with the slower wide CAM. Clubs just not moving for the likes of Özil, Ziyech, Fekir & Eriksen this summer even with the availability / low buyouts / short deals.

Hard to see it coming back either anytime soon.
 

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