The Unpopular Opinion Thread

[A_G]

All these don't so much point to a lack of individual quality or an individual mistake like stumbling over your own feet or the ball or slipping, but clearly to too much individualization of defensive pressure. The players are not kept together as a unit. They don't feel comfortable and confident, they loose their heads and off goes the fuse - whether it be tackling, positioning, tracking, clearing balls, etc.

So you don't believe unforced errors exist?

 

[Jae]

This big time. It's funny how many people refer to "individual mistakes" like they occur out of context of play. Defensive disorganization, a play style that doesn't fit the players or one the manager cannot get across properly, all these things mount pressure on individuals and then mistakes happen. Because someone is not in position, because someone didn't track, because someone didn't do x or y or z - of course it was player X that lost the ball or did whatever. But these are all down to systemic organizational issues which disband unity and formation, thus invite pressure on individuals and ultimately increase the chances of "individual" mistakes happening. So in the end, these mistakes are far less individual than they seem as they are mostly down to overarching tactical and systemic issues.

This is actually easy to see if you watch a lot of football. The same personnel will behave completely different in the span of weeks when suddenly given the confidence of working in a solid defensive construct. Last season, the VfB Stuttgart defenders were making the most comical so called individual mistakes you could imagine, far worse than here, then: the manager changed and the exact same personnel got a more basic play style and organization and suddenly they were not just overall better at the back, but the so called individual mistakes vanished completely. Tactically astute and well coached teams make far less individual mistakes, that's valid for Barcelona just as for Bournemouth, and independently of player quality, which points to individual mistakes actually not being that individual.



All these don't so much point to a lack of individual quality or an individual mistake like stumbling over your own feet or the ball or slipping, but clearly to too much individualization of defensive pressure. The players are not kept together as a unit. They don't feel comfortable and confident, they loose their heads and off goes the fuse - whether it be tackling, positioning, tracking, clearing balls, etc.

I completely understand what your saying here mate, but for me this is a bit of a "chicken or the egg" argument.

Do you get personnel in to suit the way you want to play (like most managers at top clubs do) or do you change the system to make the best of what you have and cover the deficiencies of your players?

I'd personally go with the former (of course this is going to require investment, which we may or may not get), but it's horses for courses, no right or wrong answer in my opinion.

 

[say yes]

Think that's just common sense mate rather than an unpopular opinion.

You been into the Emery thread recently?

Turns out common sense is not so common.

 

[hydrofluoric acid]

Turns out common sense is not so common.

When I'm one of the more common sense poster in a thread you know there is something wrong going on there. :rofl:

 

[Toby]

I completely understand what your saying here mate, but for me this is a bit of a "chicken or the egg" argument.

Do you get personnel in to suit the way you want to play (like most managers at top clubs do) or do you change the system to make the best of what you have and cover the deficiencies of your players?

I'd personally go with the former (of course this is going to require investment, which we may or may not get), but it's horses for courses, no right or wrong answer in my opinion.

I also get what you're saying and actually agree - to a certain degree.

Of course there are certain play styles/tactics or just different styles/tactics that are more or less dependent on players of a certain profile.

The thing is though, a truly good manager will be able to at least implement his tactics/style to a certain degree, regardless of player quality or profile - or vice versa will be able to be pragmatic in his approach to a certain degree and adjust to the player material he has at his disposal at the time until he can add to it.

So it's not quite as black and white as either change your personnel big time or adjust your tactics completely, it's rather something in between for most. And this inbetween is what loads of managers accomplish at a lot of clubs. The trick is to not become too generic in your tactics and that's where alright/solid managers are split from the top of the crop and where most of them actually tend to be able to work with lesser or to an extent "unfitting" players, still, which is why you can usually identify them even at smaller clubs or selling clubs that get their best players poached often.

 

[YeahBee]

I just hope you get saved trusting in our Saviour and great God Mark.

Take care.

Lanegan? That is the only great god Mark I know

 

[Toby]

So you don't believe unforced errors exist?

I do believe it exists, it would be stupid to say it doesn't. But I think it's far less prevalent at this club and generally in football/sports than most would think.

In the end almost any mistake is provoked by some kind of pressure, mental and/or physical which leads to a lack of focus or blip in attention which leads to a lacking execution. Decreasing the chance of that happening is to build defensive units and distribute the pressure across it. If your players make too many "individual" mistakes, something is off with your defensive organization and they are pressured too much individually.

Edit: I think you can also identify if you have individual quality problems or systemic problems in looking at your defense. Say you got 4 at the back and they make many mistakes; now is it always the same player making those mistakes or is anyone in your backline prone to making such errors? The former would definitely point to a quality problem of that one player who needs to be upgraded, the latter (which is happening at Arsenal) clearly points to systemic issues.

Now of course better players/athletes are less prone to being pressured easily and loose focus easily, that's one aspect of why they are better, but they are not excempt from it and it's not the root problem of individual mistakes and the big solution to this problem is not just getting better players.

I think today the solution is to build a defensive system that, dependent on the quality of players, minimizes the chance of players making individual decisions and that leads to defenders/players being pressured as a unit rather than as inidivuals.
You can do that on almost any level. If you got **** players you gotta make the system less complex and they're almost drone like - like some of those ~ 2010 to 2014 BL transition/counter attack workhorse teams. If you got great players you can have a more complex system with a more individual approach forming/guiding your players into "making" the right decision, although it could be argued it's also not decision making anymore as they have been drilled/taught to react to a specific situation with a specific set of tools. That second way is more akin to Guardiola or Total Football. But anyway, I think you can drill any players on any level into coherent defensive units with minimized individual decision making and the distribution of pressure on the whole defensive structure, which then results in a perceivable decrease of the "individual" mistake.

 

[YeahBee]

Leicester won the title with less money than us

By actually caring about stuff People here scoof at...

Many here seem young and naive

You are like a 18 Dude with his first flat
Buy the big TV before a washer/dryer

Or a single blonde girl that buys a new house and installs a chandellier before seeing if the heater works...

 

[Dennis_Bergkamp_10]

Leicester won the title with less money than us

By actually caring about stuff People here scoof at...

Many here seem young and naive

You are like a 18 Dude with his first flat
Buy the big TV before a washer/dryer

Or a single blonde girl that buys a new house and installs a chandellier before seeing if the heater works...

So do Leicester not care about that anymore now? Since they've dropped off quite a bit.

 

[YeahBee]

So do Leicester not care about that anymore now? Since they've dropped off quite a bit.

Lost some players and could t adapt tactically like any tactic has to

But they did win the league something we haven't during our focus on small and technical

 

[Mark Tobias]

Lost some players and could t adapt tactically like any tactic has to

But they did win the league something we haven't during our focus on small and technical

Feeble excuses for what was a bold statement.
Leicester winning the league was an absolute fluke. Nobody spending that amount of money is going to win the league again anytime soon. That is blatantly clear. It isn't just that they lost players and couldn't adapt. They lost players and couldn't spend to replace. They haven't even managed top 4 since and will likely be around midtable by end of Feb. If you can't see their league win as a complete anomaly then there is truly no help for you.

Edit: With like 30% possession on average this fact was a bit ridiculous. I supported LCFC in their year but hindsight shows a different story. Luck had a major influence..

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/leicester-citys-premier-league-penalty-7669153

 

[YeahBee]

Feeble excuses for what was a bold statement.
Leicester winning the league was an absolute fluke. Nobody spending that amount of money is going to win the league again anytime soon. That is blatantly clear. It isn't just that they lost players and couldn't adapt. They lost players and couldn't spend to replace. They haven't even managed top 4 since and will likely be around midtable by end of Feb. If you can't see their league win as a complete anomaly then there is truly no help for you.

Chelsea has won the title albeit spent a ****ton doing so
Mourinho has tons of league wins in what 3 countries with an approach People scoof at... Could not spend as he has done in his later years at porto either, they won the CL! And he DID it with Inter vs the holy graal barca nonetheless!

Greece won the euros

The anomaly keeps popping up...

Offense wins games
Defense wins championships...

 

[Mark Tobias]

Chelsea has won the title albeit spent a ****ton doing so
Mourinho has tons of league wins in what 3 countries with an approach People scoof at... Could not spend as he has done in his later years at porto either, they won the CL! And he DID it with Inter vs the holy graal barca nonetheless!

Greece won the euros

The anomaly keeps popping up...

Offense wins games
Defense wins championships...

Are you seriously using Mourinho as an example. That same manager just got sacked from the second biggest spender in the league.. Please don't tell me United have a rubbish squad because that is bollocks.
Also Greece winning the Euros is a completely different story. CL example as well. A league and a knock out competition are massively different in structure. Simply put, not playing each team home and away makes it a luck of the draw thing..

 

[YeahBee]

Buying defensiv players that can be moulded into a defensive unit is probably cheaper than finding offensiv players and have them free form attack

10 Kuyts Beats 10 Cazorlas

 

[Ricardinho]

Buying defensiv players that can be moulded into a defensive unit is probably cheaper than finding offensiv players and have them free form attack

10 Kuyts Beats 10 Cazorlas

Team Cazorla would be pinging it around Team Kuyt for fun. Team Kuyt would barely see the ball.

 

[Furious]

10 Kuyts Beats 10 Cazorlas

Kuyt wouldn't get near the ball.

Have you actually ever yourself tried to play against Spaniards?

 

[Mark Tobias]

Buying defensiv players that can be moulded into a defensive unit is probably cheaper than finding offensiv players and have them free form attack

10 Kuyts Beats 10 Cazorlas

You mean as in Dirk Kuyt? Who wasn't really a defender in his prime?

 

[Dokaka]

Don't know if this is unpopular, but if I was given the option to pick any footballer in his prime and put on the team I support, I'd take Ronaldinho. Football is entertainment and for me Ronaldinho is second to none in the regard. Helps that he's also an all time great as well of course.

Same reason I'd take 2 titles playing immensely entertaining football over 4 titles playing the Moyes/Mourinho/BFS brand of football. I've never understood the "all that matters is winning" mentality, at least as a spectator.

Winning beautifully is a lot more difficult than winning ugly, which is why it makes it so much better.

 

[hope1]

Don't know if this is unpopular, but if I was given the option to pick any footballer in his prime and put on the team I support, I'd take Ronaldinho. Football is entertainment and for me Ronaldinho is second to none in the regard. Helps that he's also an all time great as well of course.

Same reason I'd take 2 titles playing immensely entertaining football over 4 titles playing the Moyes/Mourinho/BFS brand of football. I've never understood the "all that matters is winning" mentality, at least as a spectator.

Winning beautifully is a lot more difficult than winning ugly, which is why it makes it so much better.

This. This So much.

Football is a beautiful game and let it stay that way.

We have seen Wenger teams play the beautiful football that we all love and admire and we want that only. We won titles playing that way.

Would you drop Ronaldinhio if he didn't press? Has Ronnie ever had a defensive side to his game???

Just let the guys do what they are good at. Look at Auba. Without service he is a ghost in game but that doesn't mean you drop him. You play him and he scores.

 

[YeahBee]

You mean as in Dirk Kuyt? Who wasn't really a defender in his prime?

Neither was Cazorla...