Thierry Henry: The King Stay The King

[avalonhse]

Hate that it had to be Thierry. Jardim should have never been sacked in the first place, and in some ways Monaco deserve this, but ffs why did it have to be Henry. Still hope he can turn this around somehow.

Isnt that because he wanted to be a savior? No one force him to do so.

 

[ptrcopp]

Pep also took over one of the best teams in the world (like ever), and he knew exactly what tactic to play, given that he played (almost) his whole career for Barca.

Of course being at one of the best clubs with the best teams helps a lot, but many managers have filed in the same situation. Look at Madrid this year. That defence and midfield is unreal.
And yes he played in some of the best teams, but so did Henry. The important thing is he didnot just do it blindly. He forced out many first team players, including former stars like Deco and Ronaldinho, and tried to force our more like Eto’o. He would drop the stars, Henry as an example, if they were not following his instructions by the letter.

I think others have it right. A players position definitely helps. Guardiola was the first of the DLP mould where the would have to be positionally astute but also be able to crontibute in an attacking sense, and do both at the same time. There is of course more to his story, but this is one way he is a student of the modern game

 

[Toby]

I think most people would argue Pep was a different beast. I think he was a student of the game for his whole career

Lol. Guardiola is a great coach, but he had the backing of the Barca hierarchy for an expected rebuild and he happened into Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Puyol, Pique, Dani Alves, Eto'o, Abidal and Valdes. He got Villa and Henry on top of that. Sure he gave them a great style to play and has great ideas, but look at that player quality.

If you put him into this Monaco side, he's struggling, too. Maybe not as bad as Henry, but he is struggling.

That defence and midfield is unreal.

Ahem, it's not. Ramos seems more focused on club interior power plays and bullying. Varane is injured. Carvajal was never that great to begin with. Have you seen Kroos at the WC?

Up front they've lost their output man in Ronaldo and are now stuck with a bunch of circle jerks. Lopetegui maybe was the wrong guy for man management reasons, but Real not reacting to obvious squad holes is the bigger problem here than the manager.

He forced out many first team players, including former stars like Deco and Ronaldinho

Deco was 31 and on his decline, Ronaldinho 28, on his decline and seemingly always fighting his own demons - quite telling he ended up at the old gentlemens' club AC Milan for a measly 22m € while guys like Robinho and Berbatov transferred for more than 30m the same summer. Liverpool paid almost the same amount for Robbie Keane as Milan for Ronaldinho.

Guys acting like it was a brave step to get rid of 2008 Ronaldinho and Deco when you have Messi and Iniesta at hand is a bit like rewriting history. It's not like he got rid of two superstars in their absolute prime to promote two youngsters. Messi came off a 40 games, 16 goals, 13 assists season and was an established starter, Ronnie had only played 26 games that same season. If anything, Guardiola got rid of an overpaid bench player no matter how big his name.

Same goes for Iniesta and Deco. Andres was a nailed on starter pre Guardiola in 07/08 with 49 games, Deco had only played 29.

If anything, Guardiola was clear about them not being starters and it being worth a shot to promote some youngster he got to know at Barca B, than keeping on two wage devouring relics. And the Barca hierarchy probably had a big hand in that, too.

F*cking hate it when people twist this to be some sort of genius master stroke when it actually was what anyone would have done. Some of you lot are either too young to know the facts or too lazy to use google and find out. Get your facts straight.

 

[avalonhse]

Henry is one of the best players ever in football history. He is also a complete blank and nobody as a manager. "The clock ticks differently for everyone"? No it does not, give Henry time and maybe he'll get Monaco relegated. You need more than the ability to self reflect to be a good manager, first thing you need is the ability to judge the situation you are in. If Henry didn't realize he took up a difficult job, a club that is imbalanced and suffering from years of decay, then he simply never had the talent to be a good manager. His ego blinded him and prevented him from figuring his limitations, how can he be trusted to figure out the limitations of his team?

Everyone make mistakes, there is no exception. Saying Henry NEVER has a talent to be a good manager is too much bias.

Giving enough time then even Rainieri can win PL. Before that people said he was a loser for years. So we shouldn't talk too soon about a people's ability.

 

[scytheavatar]

Everyone make mistakes, there is no exception. Saying Henry NEVER has a talent to be a good manager is too much bias.

Giving enough time then even Rainieri can win PL. Before that people said he was a loser for years. So we shouldn't talk too soon about a people's ability.

See, Ranieri can get sacked and what does he do? He immediately takes another job. This is something I believe Henry would never do, he gets sacked by Monaco he's going to go back to Sky and be a pundit again. Just like Neville. The chances of a top class player ending up as a top class manager is always slim in the first place, cause how many players who have achieved as much as Henry had would want to go through the nonsense that Ranieri has to go through?

 

[Toby]

I'm actually mindblown people hire pundits and part time assistants as managers for top flight teams only for their name and player reputation. Cause if we're honest that's exactly what happened with Neville and Henry. Getting some ex player whose main gig is working for a TV station is ridiculous and should be a big no to anyone. If they had the desire and the chops to truly manage, they'd be out there doing the job anywhere, instead of talking clever on TV.

 

[ptrcopp]

Lol. Guardiola is a great coach, but he had the backing of the Barca hierarchy for an expected rebuild and he happened into Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Puyol, Pique, Dani Alves, Eto'o, Abidal and Valdes. He got Villa and Henry on top of that. Sure he gave them a great style to play and has great ideas, but look at that player quality.

If you put him into this Monaco side, he's struggling, too. Maybe not as bad as Henry, but he is struggling.



Ahem, it's not. Ramos seems more focused on club interior power plays and bullying. Varane is injured. Carvajal was never that great to begin with. Have you seen Kroos at the WC?

Up front they've lost their output man in Ronaldo and are now stuck with a bunch of circle jerks. Lopetegui maybe was the wrong guy for man management reasons, but Real not reacting to obvious squad holes is the bigger problem here than the manager.



Deco was 31 and on his decline, Ronaldinho 28, on his decline and seemingly always fighting his own demons - quite telling he ended up at the old gentlemens' club AC Milan for a measly 22m € while guys like Robinho and Berbatov transferred for more than 30m the same summer. Liverpool paid almost the same amount for Robbie Keane as Milan for Ronaldinho.

Guys acting like it was a brave step to get rid of 2008 Ronaldinho and Deco when you have Messi and Iniesta at hand is a bit like rewriting history. It's not like he got rid of two superstars in their absolute prime to promote two youngsters. Messi came off a 40 games, 16 goals, 13 assists season and was an established starter, Ronnie had only played 26 games that same season. If anything, Guardiola got rid of an overpaid bench player no matter how big his name.

Same goes for Iniesta and Deco. Andres was a nailed on starter pre Guardiola in 07/08 with 49 games, Deco had only played 29.

If anything, Guardiola was clear about them not being starters and it being worth a shot to promote some youngster he got to know at Barca B, than keeping on two wage devouring relics. And the Barca hierarchy probably had a big hand in that, too.

F*cking hate it when people twist this to be some sort of genius master stroke when it actually was what anyone would have done. Some of you lot are either too young to know the facts or too lazy to use google and find out. Get your facts straight.

I don’t think we disagree as much as you think we do.
It was the backing that allowed him to take bold moves. And forcing out fan favourites is a bold move, and you include players in the list of players he had that were brought in under him, like Dani Alves, and players that he tried to force out, like Etoo, who he eventually did. And my point is exactly that Guardiola was clear about them not being starters.

I agreed that things should be easier at a better team.
But a back four of Marcelo-Ramos-Varane-Carvajal is a great defence and Kroos-Casemiro-Modric is a dream team midfield. Especially when they have Isco and Asensio who play their occasionally. That isn’t to say there isn’t holes in the team, but to see how porous those 7 were was absurd. And Kroos is an exceptional player, and showed it in parts at the World Cup. No one would say Messi isn’t still a world class striker despite only scoring one goal (the same as Kroos). Even if you disagree with my specifics, you can surely see it’s not always easy for managers to walk into a top job and do well?

But despite my agreements with you, my main point was the difference between Guardiola and Henry. I know the latter is obsessed with football, but I just wonder if he is ready. It was clear from Barca in their first season, how tactically they were set up, how ready Guardiola was. And I’m not saying he won’t ever be a good manager.

 

[Toby]

I don’t think we disagree as much as you think we do.
It was the backing that allowed him to take bold moves. And forcing out fan favourites is a bold move, and you include players in the list of players he had that were brought in under him, like Dani Alves, and players that he tried to force out, like Etoo, who he eventually did. And my point is exactly that Guardiola was clear about them not being starters.

I agreed that things should be easier at a better team.
But a back four of Marcelo-Ramos-Varane-Carvajal is a great defence and Kroos-Casemiro-Modric is a dream team midfield. Especially when they have Isco and Asensio who play their occasionally. That isn’t to say there isn’t holes in the team, but to see how porous those 7 were was absurd. And Kroos is an exceptional player, and showed it in parts at the World Cup. No one would say Messi isn’t still a world class striker despite only scoring one goal (the same as Kroos). Even if you disagree with my specifics, you can surely see it’s not always easy for managers to walk into a top job and do well?

But despite my agreements with you, my main point was the difference between Guardiola and Henry. I know the latter is obsessed with football, but I just wonder if he is ready. It was clear from Barca in their first season, how tactically they were set up, how ready Guardiola was. And I’m not saying he won’t ever be a good manager.

yeah, we do disagree here massively in every aspect and you kind of dodge some of my points, only touch peripherally on some and also kind of talk about different things.

I mean, look at your second paragraph, you only look at the names, not the actual performance. If you thought Kroos showed "some" of his abilites at the World Cup...then you're the only one out there, I think.

And again, getting rid of Deco and Ronaldinho is not a bold move. Most any sane manager would have done that. They were clearly past their peak, especially in comparison to the starters but still held star names and star ambitions along star wages. Keeping them is kind of lookin for trouble and burning cash. With 29 and 26 games respectively I actually have no doubt these guys thought about leaving themselves. You could maybe talk about keeping Deco, but with Xavi, Iniesta, Touré and I think he brought in Keita and pulled Busquets from B, so that's already stacked there. Some people make this out to be some genius, leftfield move, but any management would have looked to offload two ageing, expensive stars who already only were bench players.

Selling Deco and Ronaldinho is not in any way testament to Guardiolas's boldness or genius. It's literally what most managers would have done, especially when tasked with a rebuild. And if you actually lok at their 07/08 squad, these two guys, maybe along Zambrotta, are the only sellable assets in that team you'd actually also want to sell, if you needed to offload and make money: Henry, Abidal and Touré were set starters and had only arrived a year prior to Pep taking over. You don't sell Puyol, Milito and Marquez, and neither do you sell Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Eto'o - at least not in your first season.

 

[scytheavatar]

yeah, we do disagree here massively in every aspect and you kind of dodge some of my points, only touch peripherally on some and also kind of talk about different things.

I mean, look at your second paragraph, you only look at the names, not the actual performance. If you thought Kroos showed "some" of his abilites at the World Cup...then you're the only one out there, I think.

And again, getting rid of Deco and Ronaldinho is not a bold move. Most any sane manager would have done that. They were clearly past their peak, especially in comparison to the starters but still held star names and star ambitions along star wages. Keeping them is kind of lookin for trouble and burning cash. With 29 and 26 games respectively I actually have no doubt these guys thought about leaving themselves. You could maybe talk about keeping Deco, but with Xavi, Iniesta, Touré and I think he brought in Keita and pulled Busquets from B, so that's already stacked there. Some people make this out to be some genius, leftfield move, but any management would have looked to offload two ageing, expensive stars who already only were bench players.

Selling Deco and Ronaldinho is not in any way testament to Guardiolas's boldness or genius. It's literally what most managers would have done, especially when tasked with a rebuild. And if you actually lok at their 07/08 squad, these two guys, maybe along Zambrotta, are the only sellable assets in that team you'd actually also want to sell, if you needed to offload and make money: Henry, Abidal and Touré were set starters and had only arrived a year prior to Pep taking over. You don't sell Puyol, Milito and Marquez, and neither do you sell Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Eto'o - at least not in your first season.

If Emery sells Özil would you consider it to be something "most sane manager would have done"?

 

[Toby]

If Emery sells Özil would you consider it to be something "most sane manager would have done"?

Right now? No. Why?

You ask in the context of me talking about the 2008 Deco and Ronaldinho sales, right?

There's different opinions on if the team is better with Özil or not, ranging from discussion about his body language, his mentality and work rate to if a pretty classic No. 10 like him is suited to our play or even modern football. So there's room to debate about Özil's worth to the team in terms of his style of play, but I don't think anyone can question his overall quality.

That's why I don't really get your question. It's obvious the compariosn Özil 2018 at Arsenal - Deco/Ronnie 2008 at Barca is kinda off. Özil is physically fit, he's a nailed on starter and when on fire the best player in the team, and going by Emery's use of him a core piece of the coach's plans for Arsenal, sometimes even captaining the side.

The two Barca guys were already dropping off in terms of overall performance, the season before they were sold they were bench players having only played 29 respectively 26 games, Barca had their immediate replacements in Messi and Iniesta already at the club and Barca knew well these two could/would perform. And for bench players they were on big wages.

So I think it's obvious there's a difference and why it makes sense to sell the latter two for "any sane manager", and why I consider Özil to be in a wholly different category to them in terms of squad role.

If Özil was riding the bench all the time, starting to drop off in performances and there was another guy at the club playing as a 10 and better than him, or Emery would change to a 433 and decide Özil should be a role player, with his high wages, then we'd be in a comparable situation. But right now, no.

I hope you get that these are two totally different situations.

 

[scytheavatar]

That's why I don't really get your question. It's obvious the compariosn Özil 2018 at Arsenal - Deco/Ronnie 2008 at Barca is kinda off. Özil is physically fit, he's a nailed on starter and when on fire the best player in the team, and going by Emery's use of him a core piece of the coach's plans for Arsenal, sometimes even captaining the side.

Deco/Ronnie 2008 at Barca are as "off" as current Özil is for us. You are vastly exaggerating how much they have declined, Ronnie had a lot of injuries in 2007/2008 but still managed 8 goals in 13 starts. Deco managed 6 assists in 14 starts. It's not like they were super old, Deco was 31 years old while Ronaldinho was 28 years old. Had things gone wrong for Guardiola in his first 2 months for Barca after selling Deco and Ronaldinho you can bet that the fans would have lynched him and asked the board why he was hired.

 

[ptrcopp]

yeah, we do disagree here massively in every aspect and you kind of dodge some of my points, only touch peripherally on some and also kind of talk about different things.

I mean, look at your second paragraph, you only look at the names, not the actual performance. If you thought Kroos showed "some" of his abilites at the World Cup...then you're the only one out there, I think.

And again, getting rid of Deco and Ronaldinho is not a bold move. Most any sane manager would have done that. They were clearly past their peak, especially in comparison to the starters but still held star names and star ambitions along star wages. Keeping them is kind of lookin for trouble and burning cash. With 29 and 26 games respectively I actually have no doubt these guys thought about leaving themselves. You could maybe talk about keeping Deco, but with Xavi, Iniesta, Touré and I think he brought in Keita and pulled Busquets from B, so that's already stacked there. Some people make this out to be some genius, leftfield move, but any management would have looked to offload two ageing, expensive stars who already only were bench players.

Selling Deco and Ronaldinho is not in any way testament to Guardiolas's boldness or genius. It's literally what most managers would have done, especially when tasked with a rebuild. And if you actually lok at their 07/08 squad, these two guys, maybe along Zambrotta, are the only sellable assets in that team you'd actually also want to sell, if you needed to offload and make money: Henry, Abidal and Touré were set starters and had only arrived a year prior to Pep taking over. You don't sell Puyol, Milito and Marquez, and neither do you sell Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Eto'o - at least not in your first season.

The reason I said I don’t think we are too far apart is because you didn’t really speak about what had said. And I agreed on some of those things. I never said it wouldn’t be more difficult at a smaller club, I just said that going into a big club with a good squad doesn’t guarentee success. And as I said, if you disagree with my example, that’s fine but you haven’t argued against the principle.
And again you have named players that he tried to get rid of in his first season and players he did let go later on. So even if Deco and Ronaldinho are what any manager would have done, why not talk about Eto’o who he tried to get rid of, but then did the next season? Or how in 2010 let Yaya go despite being fan favourite and playing 37 games the prev season and 43 the one before? He did similar things at Bayern and City too. Hart had become a legend at City! Then in his second season let every fullback in the senior squad leave.

My point at the beginning was that it’s wrong just to say the only difference between Guardiola and Henry is the team.

And it’s not like the only thing I have said, or others, is that he chucked out two big players. He transformed the way they played; not only allowing them to attack but also not be beaten on the counter. And he has done this at Bayern and City as well and in different way. He has sat the CMs deep allowing full backs to bomb on (Mendy Alves, Abidal etc) he has sat full backs inside (Lahm, Alaba, Delph) he has pulled a DLP between the CB (Busquets, Thiago). And he has also subbed large players off for not following instructions clearly, Henryfor example, and dismissed players like Ibra if they weren’t doing it consistently.

To dismiss how good a manager Guardiola is because he has only been at big teams is to dismiss, not only the great football they have played, but also how difficult it has been to beat every single of of his teams down the years.



I agree he has been lucky in some respects, and that is in part the teams he has inherited. The players personalities as well. You mentioned Ramos. Guardiola hasn’t had to deal with a character who is so clearly in it for themselves yet so clearly part of the club.

So yes, it’s silly to compare Henry and Guardiola, and part of that is down to the clubs they managed first. But it’s been obvious since day one that Guardiola is a great manager. Not just because he got rid of certain players, but because he build teams tactically that were great to watch, difficult to beat, and won things. And you need to be a good manager to be able to walk into a top job and do well.

 

[ptrcopp]

See, Ranieri can get sacked and what does he do? He immediately takes another job. This is something I believe Henry would never do, he gets sacked by Monaco he's going to go back to Sky and be a pundit again. Just like Neville. The chances of a top class player ending up as a top class manager is always slim in the first place, cause how many players who have achieved as much as Henry had would want to go through the nonsense that Ranieri has to go through?

Something else I don’t see Henry doing is what other top managers have done: take a step back and be a coach or assistant again.

 

[Toby]

Deco/Ronnie 2008 at Barca are as "off" as current Özil is for us. You are vastly exaggerating how much they have declined, Ronnie had a lot of injuries in 2007/2008 but still managed 8 goals in 13 starts. Deco managed 6 assists in 14 starts. It's not like they were super old, Deco was 31 years old while Ronaldinho was 28 years old. Had things gone wrong for Guardiola in his first 2 months for Barca after selling Deco and Ronaldinho you can bet that the fans would have lynched him and asked the board why he was hired.

Özil now is definitely more important to his team than Ronnie and Deco were for Barca in 2008. Messi came off a good season and you could see he was the same level of talent like Ronnie. They had Henry and Eto'o too. I really don't think it was a risk to sell these two. Furthermore, if you look at the squad, who else was there to lay off to raise some Cash and make space for New signings? It was only Deco, Ronnie and Zambrotta and that's who they sold.

 

[ThlRama]

About time the title of this thread changed ffs. @American_Gooner @celestis @yousif_arsenal

 

[scytheavatar]

Is it possible for us to just move this topic to the Football Forum? Think conversations about Henry's adventure in another club is not really Arsenal related.

 

[Toby]

From that Arsène Wenger interview someone posted somewhere on here:

AW: "They're all intelligent enough to be managers, but do they want to sacrifice their lives?"

IV: "You believe it is total sacrifice to be successful?"

AW:"Yep, yeah. Total sacrifice."

 

[celestis]

From that Arséne Wenger interview someone posted somewhere on here:

AW: "They're all intelligent enough to be managers, but do they want to sacrifice their lives?"

IV: "You believe it is total sacrifice to be successful?"

AW:"Yep, yeah. Total sacrifice."

He included Merson in that .

 

[NieThePiet]

First win for him. 0:1 away win against Caen.

 

[Tir Na Nog]

Well done.