VAR. Is it the answer? Thoughts?

Discussion in 'Football Talk' started by razörist, Sep 16, 2016.

?

Are you for VAR or not?

  1. Yes

    80.0%
  2. No

    20.0%
  1. YeahBee

    YeahBee Sign all the Swedes

    It is a bit shallow that they introduce this now anyway

    there is a problem with refeering but instead of the VAR issue I see the climate of so much else as more troubeling

    frekkin asshole players crowding the ref, diving and overplaying contact and stupid reckless tackles to.

    there are good refs in England, problem is that they are refing rugby


    Just frekkin gather all managers and captains before the season starts, LAY DOWN THE LAW, Dredd STYLE!

    clean up the sport, shouldn't cost a dime

    if brutes who run headfirst into each other can manage why can't football players?
     
    albakos and Toby Andrl like this.
  2. YeahBee

    YeahBee Sign all the Swedes

    I played football and handball
    I am not innocent:
    broken rules deliberatly, chewed refs out etc etc


    I still see some guys from other surrounding teams as rivals, would never let a kid of mine play in one of those teams.
    and yet I have also been involved in martial arts, the atmosphere is so totally different, even when we choke each other, kick n punch each other in the head there is respect and friendly atmosphere amongst rivals, no *****ing about refeering or appelled ref calls or even points.

    it is common to just go to other clubs and train, unheard of in team sports from my experience.
     
  3. Jury

    Jury Mission Accomplished

    In England, it is. It's solely down to the ref. If he's happy that either nothing happened or he made the correct decision, it goes no further.
     
  4. Jury

    Jury Mission Accomplished

    It's not perfect yet, but we have to feel our way along; see what works best in certain scenarios and what doesn't.

    It's already better and it can only improve. It's a step in the right direction.
     
    redanddread likes this.
  5. Toby Andrl

    Toby Andrl Part Time Stuttgart Fan

    That's a lot better than in Germany. The video ref can come in whenever he wants, or not, or be called upon, or not. Final decision is with the on field ref, but it's been pretty clear that when the video ref comes in, a lot of refs feel pressured into changing their decision - for better or worse.
     
  6. Jury

    Jury Mission Accomplished

    Tbh, I'd prefer a panel reviewing all potentially crunch decisions with the ability to alert the ref asap if he made a fault. They'd have to move quickly to make that work, but it's something to work towards. The whole point of this, that we're seeking to get the potentially game changing decisions correct as often as possible, must not be lost under all the these teething issues and quibbles.
     
    Mrs Bergkamp and Makingtrax like this.
  7. Toby Andrl

    Toby Andrl Part Time Stuttgart Fan

    That's definitely the way to go. A panel reviewing basically any situation and quickly alerting the ref when he called something wrong under the guidance of an overhauled, clear set of rules.
     
    Jury likes this.
  8. Jury

    Jury Mission Accomplished

    Problem is this pathetic need to hang on the word of the ref, like he IS the game. The more power you take away from them, the less you need them, and then the powers that be start losing their sh!t as if the game is going down the toilet. The fear of change for the better. Tossers.
     
  9. Toby Andrl

    Toby Andrl Part Time Stuttgart Fan

    These things would be so easy to address. How to stop crowding the ref? When the ref interrupts play, only the captains and the directly involved players are allowed to approach and talk to him. That's usually 4. Any other players has to be summoned by the ref, or he gets a yellow. Easy.

    VAR could help with diving; in game and after games. You just have to really implement sanctioning it. The same goes for overplaying contact. Write a clear and strict set of rules and then implement it coherently. If ref don't do it, sanction them.
     
    YeahBee likes this.
  10. Jury

    Jury Mission Accomplished

    We still need to look at captains getting 'challenges' like they do in tennis, for decisions that the ref might overlook. The potential problem with that, though, are devious challenges to break up counter attacks or other ways to use them to an advantage. But come on, there are people getting paid a lot of money to make sure these new rules are not abused. I feel the only thing stopping them implementing more stuff to support VAR, is doing too much too soon and making a huge mess of it. Baby steps is probably the only way to go.
     
  11. albakos

    albakos Arséne Wenger: "I will miss you" Administrator

    They should do it with some elements as in American football (I know)
    The manager ha a right to make a call for VAR, the match is halted, main ref goes by the corner watches the replays and gets done with it in less than a minute.

    That thing may be used in football too, where the manager can max 2 calls per match (1 call each half) and only for "game-changing decisions": penalty decision (appealing for it and asking for a penalty), offside goal, a disallowed goal (from an offside) and a red card.
     
  12. Mark Tobias

    Mark Tobias Mmhmm yes, I agree

    Risk of managers using it to kill momentum, time waste or distract... but it's an idea I've thought of as well
     
  13. albakos

    albakos Arséne Wenger: "I will miss you" Administrator

    No because you can easily control against bastard managers like Mourinho or Simeone.

    That's why you limit it to only one call per half, only for game-changing events, not for some silly things like a shirt pull, a push, a disputed corner kick etc...
     
  14. Toby Andrl

    Toby Andrl Part Time Stuttgart Fan

    Straining a bit from the manager challenge, on which I'm not too sure, but also haven't given it too much thought yet, but...

    It's not only penalties that decide matches, it's also exactly the little things you mention like shirt pulling, that can decide matches and which, at least to me, have in much higher quantity than penalties, given or not given, revealed the subpar refereeing. Especially with the arbitrariness and inconsistency - in one game alone - with which these kind of fouls are sanctioned or not. That's why VAR should optimally be used in any decision to be made.
    A little example to make my thoughts clear:
    Team A gets awarded cautions and yellow cards much easier and faster for "silly" things like pushes and shirt pulling and small tactical fouls than Team B. That leads to Team A having 3 to 5 players on a yellow in the 60th minute, and Team B maybe 1 or 2. As of that Team A will reasonably, but influenced by the refereeing, hold back in challenges, to avoid having a player sent off, which will in turn allow Team B to play their own game much more fluently and untroubled by Team A, and all of that riggs a game's outcome towards Team B winning.

    Especially as an Arsenal fan one should be aware of this. There's always talk on how much more prone Xhaka is to get a yellow or even red for fouls someone else wouldn't even be booked for (yes, he is rash and does do harsh fouls, but still). Seen it too many times in the Bundesliga when the DFB, country and ref darling FC Bayern lose, you just award their opponent a host of yellow cards, so they hold back when going into tackles, which allows Bayern to play more freely, which increases their chances of scoring a goal.

    Penalties and straight red cards are the most prevalent and noticeable sanctions to influence a game, and there's enough inconsistency with these, but it's the massive bulk of plain wrong decisions on small, silly offenses that happen every game day that unnecessarily influence games and reveal the bad standard of refereeing.

    Like Jury wrote, taking away power from referees is the only way to stop them from obviously influencing games and raising the standard of refereeing. VAR can, and, hopefully, will be one of the ways this happens. They should be as accountable as managers and players are for their actions during a game.
     
  15. albakos

    albakos Arséne Wenger: "I will miss you" Administrator

    That is a good observation.

    I am all for that, my reply was only limited to how they would control against managers seeking to exploit the VAR system.

    And also how many times we've been dinged by poor decisions this season. A VAR would give Hazard and Richarlison a yellow for diving instead of penalty.
    Laca's goal vs.Stoke would stand, while Silva's goal at City would be disallowed. The peno on Chambers etc...
    I'm sure there are many more though, can't recall each now.
     
    Mark Tobias likes this.
  16. IslingtonBornandbred

    IslingtonBornandbred Well-Known Member

    Just to play devil's advocate and based on how VAR has been used around the world and it's interpretation in this country, VAR would be as likely to insist that the Hazard incident was a penalty, that Richarlison didn't dive and there was some contact. Lacazette goal could also possibly still be ruled as offside and the penalty could also still be given against Chambers.

    The only one I'm confident would definitely be disallowed is the Silva offside and potentially Chambers. That's if the referee makes the same decisions and then refers to VAR or VAR reviews it. You have to remember, one of the main points they use and questions they ask when using VAR is "Did I make a clear and obvious error?" In refereeing terms, things like Hazard, Richarlison, Laca's marginal offside are very much NOT clear and obvious errors.

    You have to remember VAR is still a person and an interpretation, and it's not clear cut i.e was it a penalty or not, it's " did I make an obvious and clear error" and they are both two very different things.
     
  17. Toby Andrl

    Toby Andrl Part Time Stuttgart Fan

    Very true and on point. VAR is of no use if ALL the rules aren't made clearer.

    - make refs accountable for mistakes by means of sanctions
    - VAR as an independent panel with as much power as the ref to correct wrong decisons even gainst ref's will
    - a new, overhauled set of rules that exactly states what a foul is, e.g. clarifying handballs, contacts, etc.
    - professionalizing the refs, making it a proper job
    - split ref organisations/associations from the FAs
     
  18. YeahBee

    YeahBee Sign all the Swedes

    Clearly offsides and if the ball was in or not can be handled automatically by camera/computer

    so why do we need the sideline refs?

    didn't they try a 2-ref system in Italy some years back?
     
  19. IslingtonBornandbred

    IslingtonBornandbred Well-Known Member

    What did you guys think of VAR during the Chelsea/Norwich game? I stick to my views and know it's still a trial but I'm still interested because it's one of the first VAR games to receive any attention in terms of how it's used?
     
  20. sexpanther

    sexpanther Active Member

    The FA purposely haven't given us a VAR trial match, this is how you know they're truly against us :lol:
     

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