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Wenger has to step up

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Klaus Daimler

Established Member
DC Gunner said:
Klaus Daimler said:
DC Gunner said:
I don't think our players are allowed to express themselves on the field
Right, but here's the thing: it doesn't matter what you think because it isn't so.
Thanks, but I don't take your opinion as the bible.
And with one sentence you once again try to disregard all the previous statements, the main thing that supports your view being you "don't think". I don't know why I even bother.
 

Rohit

Established Member
Anzac said:
There's a frequently used riposte used here that goes along the lines of real life not being like FM etc. However, as any FM LLM (Lower League Manager) will tell you - you either buy the players to suit your style / system of play OR you play a system to best suit your available players / finances. My contention is that AW having refused the former option, is now faced with having to follow the latter option if he wishes to address any of the issues facing the team performances.

Refused the former option? Are you serious?

Wenger decided to adopt a different style after selling Vieira and letting Cesc take over the mantle. Adebayor, Hleb, Rosicky, Nasri etc are all bought to suit that system.

If you are talking about only filling gaps after all of the aforementioned had been bought i.e. this summer window then i misunderstood and apologise.
 

DC Gunner

Established Member
Klaus Daimler said:
And with one sentence you once again try to disregard all the previous statements, the main thing that supports your view being you "don't think". I don't know why I even bother.
Why do you !?

You have been doing this all over, just accept people having different views than yours, and move on.
 

Biggus

Established Member
Indeed, we're all here to give our opinions it's not a matter of trying to impose yours on anyone- because people don't like that.
Occasionally someone will take some of your points on board or someone will say something that you didn't know or makes you think again. That doesn't mean there's a winner or loser if you want- everyone's a winner because you've learned something you didn't know.

When talking about the future not one of us know what's going to happen, you give your prediction and others give theirs and we have to wait and see who was closest to the truth. But always keep it in good humour.
 

Klaus Daimler

Established Member
Yes, well, I was merely making the poing that the opinion "I don't think our players are allowed to express themselves on the field" isn't true. And that isn't really an opinion, it's a simple fact. I've got no problem with people that offers different views, as long as they share something that's thought-through and grounded in reality.
 

General

Established Member
It is obvious Wenger’s model of management is becoming increasingly flawed in the modern era and this is largely down to his reactive outlook to things in general. It is the biggest chink in his armour- whether it is the timing of his substitutions, reacting to a tactical switch by the opposition or recognising the imperativeness of seeking external resources to bridge the gap in quality in the squad. Primorac is either not been honest with him out of courtesy or they are both simply suffering from good old delusions of grandeur.

Going through this thread, it’s amazing how people have easily subscribed to this ‘localised production of talent’ process (others call it “a self supporting model”) without the need to spend big as the sustainable way forward. I hate to break it to you that it’s a flawed view that fails to recognise the competition at hand. The ‘T’ in SWOT analysis (for you business minded folks) is there for a reason and makes it succinctly clear why you simply cannot ignore the threat posed by the opposition when evaluating a model. It’s a rule to which football is no different! Buying to bridge the gap and raising your own are in no way mutually exclusive and the modern game demands these two be applied in tandem. The view that bringing in much needed reinforcement impinges on a youthful squad is blatant lie.

You don’t achieve synergy through inadequate components and in this case, we criminally went into a new season with uncertainty hanging over one of the most vital areas of the pitch. Where in the world do you lose three relatively experienced players in Flamini, Hleb and Gilberto over the summer and replace them with a solitary key signing and then expect to better the challenge posed by rivals who happen to be better equipped in this regard. I think the four points we finished behind United need to be put some perspective here - you can either bemoan the tough luck that largely contributed to our downfall OR appreciate that United/Chelsea could’ve finished further away from us; particularly the former, who had one of their worst starts to a PL season.

I’ll sit back and enjoy the ride this season with a considerably curtailed expectation to boot. If Mr Wenger suddenly discovers the beauty of proactiveness, I say we give him another bronze bust and a contract for life.

quincy42 said:
We sit here complaining about players determination and ability, and the constitution all day long, but these are all factors that Wenger is responsible for.

Indeed. Largely!
 

Klaus Daimler

Established Member
... like that, for example. That gotta be the best post I've read in quite a while. My hat goes off to you, General.

One point, though:
General said:
others call it "a self supporting model"
To be fair I called it a self supporting model finally showing some signs of working. I wasn't really expecting someone to lift it out of context like that, because it obviously loses its credability then. I agree with much of your post except for the first pargraph, but I also think that the criticism has to wait until the end of the season. United has had a pretty bad start this year too, and we know how it turned out for them last season when that happened. And yes, we lost two good players and only replaced one of them in the summer, but Denilson isn't doing bad right now. And if you consider the loss of Gilberto as a big deal then you might as well include Lehmann and Hoyte there, I guess. They had about as much impact on last season as he did. We lost experience, but experience only counts for so much in itself. Despite that, however, it IS true that buying is needed to bridge the gap, and I do agree that it's something that was neglected in the summer.
 

hackajack

Established Member
General said:
It is obvious Wenger’s model of management is becoming increasingly flawed in the modern era and this is largely down to his reactive outlook to things in general. It is the biggest chink in his armour- whether it is the timing of his substitutions, reacting to a tactical switch by the opposition or recognising the imperativeness of seeking external resources to bridge the gap in quality in the squad. Primorac is either not been honest with him out of courtesy or they are both simply suffering from good old delusions of grandeur.
That's at best highly contentious and at worst bollox. Wenger's model is clearly to give players their head and encourage responsibility - this has clearly worked for many (though not for say Reyes who couldn't handle the pressure). It has become more important as the balance of power switches from club to player.

His tactical position is one of: 'I trust you guys to win the game and I'm going to give you 70/75 mins to do that' similar to Ferguson who also rarely chops and changes mid game. I think the squad thing is about him really feeling that he couldn't get the right player at teh right price and being unwilling to compromise - for example I (and he) think Barry is not good enough to play for Arsenal. He might have helped us for a few games right now but he isn't the right stuff to win a PL or CL.
 

Anzac

Established Member
kamikaze80 said:
anzac, i generally agree with you but i hate when you say "wengerball". wenger didnt invent a new style of play - we're just a good footballing side.

just using the popular expression used to describe AW's brand of football - formation, tactics, style etc - and yes I'm not of the opinion that it is anything new to world football in any of those areas - just perhaps to the PL at the time.........
 

Anzac

Established Member
Rohit said:
Anzac said:
There's a frequently used riposte used here that goes along the lines of real life not being like FM etc. However, as any FM LLM (Lower League Manager) will tell you - you either buy the players to suit your style / system of play OR you play a system to best suit your available players / finances. My contention is that AW having refused the former option, is now faced with having to follow the latter option if he wishes to address any of the issues facing the team performances.

Refused the former option? Are you serious?

Wenger decided to adopt a different style after selling Vieira and letting Cesc take over the mantle. Adebayor, Hleb, Rosicky, Nasri etc are all bought to suit that system.

If you are talking about only filling gaps after all of the aforementioned had been bought i.e. this summer window then i misunderstood and apologise.

Primarily I was thinking of this current season & the last, but having mentioned those players - only Nasri was brought into the squad after Cesc was he not - all the others were already part of the squad before Cesc made his debut ????? Apologies if I'm mistaken as I was not in a position to follow the team then as I am now.

I agree that he did change the style to better suit Fabs' short passing game & capability to dictate play from MC, as opposed to the previous style where DB was our creative focus from the hole, but that would be about it. IMO the likes of Rosicky, Hleb & Nasri are typical AW wide mid signings based upon the Pires model, with the other flank being a more direct Ljungberg / Reyes / Walcott model. As for Ade - his physical attributes may suit this current style, but his attributes as a striker do not IMO - primarily because he is so wasteful in early chances.
 

Anzac

Established Member
Klaus Daimler said:
Yes, well, I was merely making the poing that the opinion "I don't think our players are allowed to express themselves on the field" isn't true. And that isn't really an opinion, it's a simple fact. I've got no problem with people that offers different views, as long as they share something that's thought-through and grounded in reality.

Perhaps - I'd say the system comes first & any expression by the players is subject to that basic design / intent - otherwise we'd see a lot more individual flair being expressed. IMO we have a very strict criteria as to how we play the game, one that is based upon the sum of it's parts as opposed to any individual contribution.
 

Anzac

Established Member
hackajack said:
General said:
It is obvious Wenger’s model of management is becoming increasingly flawed in the modern era and this is largely down to his reactive outlook to things in general. It is the biggest chink in his armour- whether it is the timing of his substitutions, reacting to a tactical switch by the opposition or recognising the imperativeness of seeking external resources to bridge the gap in quality in the squad. Primorac is either not been honest with him out of courtesy or they are both simply suffering from good old delusions of grandeur.
That's at best highly contentious and at worst bollox. Wenger's model is clearly to give players their head and encourage responsibility - this has clearly worked for many (though not for say Reyes who couldn't handle the pressure). It has become more important as the balance of power switches from club to player.

His tactical position is one of: 'I trust you guys to win the game and I'm going to give you 70/75 mins to do that' similar to Ferguson who also rarely chops and changes mid game. I think the squad thing is about him really feeling that he couldn't get the right player at teh right price and being unwilling to compromise - for example I (and he) think Barry is not good enough to play for Arsenal. He might have helped us for a few games right now but he isn't the right stuff to win a PL or CL.

If you are right then IMO the execution is flawed. Why then change formation to the conservative 451 so often & put more responsibility / pressure upon the midfield & attack?

As for giving them 70-75 mins to win the game - all very well when you are dealing with seasoned pros & a team of the finished product, but not so when the team as a whole is still developing (and I don't buy the arguement that we are 'experienced' in anything other than perhaps game time). Likewise in regard to the timing of his deceision making - it is harder to change the course of a match after 3/4 time, when the implications were there after 1/4 - more so if you do not have proven game breakers on the bench. Again IMO it creates a level of pressure that is not needed, both mentally & physically. Add to this the lack of firepower / options off the bench then you head towards player burn out as you deprive the squad of rotation opportunities via early substitutions, and development time for the bench players. I find it incredible that AW should have so much faith in the likes of Denilson / Song to 'step up'in argueably the most important area of our game, considering how little time either played with the seniors last season. Either that or he is prepared to expect Cesc to carry an increased expectation to overcome the shortfall.

To date I have yet to see any indication that AW has been prepared to change his basic template on the pitch re player roles / formations, or in regard to his timing of his substitutions or their type. For me his expectation is still upon the players to perform to his design, not him as manager to step up in regard to adapting his design in regard to the team deficiencies / strengths. IMO he failed to adjust last season, particularly in the run home & after the domestic Cup disasters, and he's following the same path todate. He made the decision not to address the flanks or defence last season, and likewise in the defence and midfield in the summer. As a consequence I see no reason to expect any change in performance or outcomes as to what we've seen presented last season or thus far in this one.
 

hackajack

Established Member
Anzac said:
If you are right then IMO the execution is flawed.
I'll leave the formation one for another day but I think the execution has been flawed in terms of deepening the squad (which may be a longer term strategic error) and in terms of addressing here and now issues like not having any DMs. The former I don't understand - it may be that he believes a tight core is still enough to compete on two fronts or that he thinks our fringe players are going to develop enough to bridge the gap. The latter may be not being able to get the right quality of player - I've hired people and the biggest mistakes I've made were always when I thought 'this isn't really the right person but we need someone badly'. It's actually the easy but wrong option just to go out and get someone who'll do. That said I don't think we couldn't find a DM in any league Sessengnon, Makoun etc etc
 

Anzac

Established Member
Agreed - the expedient / easy option can often be the 'wrong' option in many ways. For AW it's a question of which was viewed as the 'easy' option - it may have been to continue to put faith in the fringe players to step up, as it fits his precedents, rather than to activly pursue any viable options in the market.

I too disagree that there were no viable options in the market, but IMO AW doesn't want a DM type & would actually prefer a more fluid / creative / ball playing MC pairing - it's the only reason I can think of to justify the sale of 3 DM types along with his comments re Song as CB = no DM types in the senior / fringe players. This then leads me to the conclusion that the defensive cover needs to come from elsewhere, I.E. the FBs, as to change to the 451 / 4141 is at best a compromise/d solution (re no genuine DM type players), to a defensive issue based upon providing cover to the CBs.

Similarly IMO the focus of the cover being provided from the middle of the park is wrong, despite it being where the perceived weakness is = 2 wrongs don't make a right. If the FBs were tasked to be the 1st line of cover, then the CBs themselves can then attack the ball (they are meant to be the more profficient defenders at doing so), as opposed to having a non-DM midfielder attempting to do this (the CBs are still looking to 'cover' the midfield providing the defensive cover).

Lastly as I mentioned earlier, this FB option does not mean we are sacrificing a striker in attack, and similarly it does not mean that we are taking a vital element out of the attack, or that the FBs will be sitting deep.
 

hackajack

Established Member
Anzac said:
but IMO AW doesn't want a DM type & would actually prefer a more fluid / creative / ball playing MC pairing - it's the only reason I can think of to justify the sale of 3 DM types along with his comments re Song as CB = no DM types in the senior / fringe players. This then leads me to the conclusion that the defensive cover needs to come from elsewhere, I.E. the FBs, as to change to the 451 / 4141 is at best a compromise/d solution (re no genuine DM type players), to a defensive issue based upon providing cover to the CBs.
I think he wants a DM alright but he doesn't want to play a holding player like a Makelele nor does he want an average quality player like say Barry. If he could have bought the new Vieira in the summer I have no doubt he would have done that. I don't agree with the other solutions - basically to win games you need to win the CM and you need a balance of players to do that.
 

General

Established Member
hackajack said:
General said:
It is obvious Wenger’s model of management is becoming increasingly flawed in the modern era and this is largely down to his reactive outlook to things in general. It is the biggest chink in his armour- whether it is the timing of his substitutions, reacting to a tactical switch by the opposition or recognising the imperativeness of seeking external resources to bridge the gap in quality in the squad. Primorac is either not been honest with him out of courtesy or they are both simply suffering from good old delusions of grandeur.
That's at best highly contentious and at worst bollox. Wenger's model is clearly to give players their head and encourage responsibility - this has clearly worked for many (though not for say Reyes who couldn't handle the pressure). It has become more important as the balance of power switches from club to player.

His tactical position is one of: 'I trust you guys to win the game and I'm going to give you 70/75 mins to do that' similar to Ferguson who also rarely chops and changes mid game. I think the squad thing is about him really feeling that he couldn't get the right player at teh right price and being unwilling to compromise - for example I (and he) think Barry is not good enough to play for Arsenal. He might have helped us for a few games right now but he isn't the right stuff to win a PL or CL.


I said Wenger model of management is becoming increasingly flawed largely due to his reactive outlook to things in general (Read – “Reactive”). The statement had nothing to do with encouraging responsibility or “giving players their head”. Wenger is very reactive and this would’ve been obvious to even his staunchest advocates. I do not remember questioning the other elements to his managerial style but yes I think we could’ve heeded to the warning signs much earlier and sent mummy’s boy back to where he came from.

The timing of his decision making, like Anzac has picked upon, leaves a lot to be desired. This applies to his general outlook to management, whether it’s his approach to the transfer window, altering formation during a game or making much needed substitutions.

It still beggars belief how it took us until the Jan transfer window of 05/06 to realise that the squad was fundamentally inadequate to the task ahead, in the process imperilling our place in the top 4. Could Diaby and Ade not have been purchased six months earlier and saved ourselves six months in settling period? It is also obvious that neither Denilson nor Song (albeit both very talented) is fully capable of providing the needed consistency to prop a title challenge. Do we now react and buy in Jan to bridge the gap in quality or persevere? Unless another danger of falling out of the top 4 magically appears, I wouldn’t bet on it.

So think what we could achieve if Wenger injected a bit more proactiveness into his modus operandi - Approach the issues head on rather than sidestep to manoeuvre.
 

Anzac

Established Member
hackajack said:
Anzac said:
but IMO AW doesn't want a DM type & would actually prefer a more fluid / creative / ball playing MC pairing - it's the only reason I can think of to justify the sale of 3 DM types along with his comments re Song as CB = no DM types in the senior / fringe players. This then leads me to the conclusion that the defensive cover needs to come from elsewhere, I.E. the FBs, as to change to the 451 / 4141 is at best a compromise/d solution (re no genuine DM type players), to a defensive issue based upon providing cover to the CBs.
I think he wants a DM alright but he doesn't want to play a holding player like a Makelele nor does he want an average quality player like say Barry. If he could have bought the new Vieira in the summer I have no doubt he would have done that. I don't agree with the other solutions - basically to win games you need to win the CM and you need a balance of players to do that.

If so then why with a 3 man midfield v Sunderland did he play an AMC & 2 MCs??? If the aim is to win the CM then surely 2 MCs & a DM would have addressed the CM defensive cover and provided the positioning, depth & 'control'??? IMO the 3 man midfield v Sunderland had no intention / hope of providing the defensive cover down the middle, and required either Song or Denilson to drop into our defensive hole to do so - neither being given the specific role in what was a very inexperienced engine room.


In that 433 / 4321 with those players I'd have played Song as DM, Cesc & Denilson as MCs, Ade as the central striker, and told RVP & Theo that their role was to drop deeper to the AMR/L to recieve the ball & attack the defence, and the non ball carrier to act as the 2nd striker in the area off Ade - as opposed to them both trying to stay wide. Alternatively I'd have Ade & Theo as the striker pairing & have RVP work from the AM position but with a free role across the attack.
 
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