Wenger: the red myths descend

[al-Ustaadh]

From the stats I've looked at, he hasn't done a bad job to be fair.

? I was referring to Wenger having to serve a touchline ban and how Bould always seems like he's sitting on the bench with his mouth shut and is forced to let Wenger run everything.

 

[Makingtrax]

If we performed with the appetite, concentration and discipline of that 0-0 away to Chelsea, even 65% of games under Wenger, nobody could have an issue with him.

Right now, we perform like that so infrequently it is almost like that game was managed by a different person. It's clear the players can do it. Perhaps they are just fed up of doing it under Wenger.

You come up with some stuff bro.

 

[Makingtrax]

? I was referring to Wenger having to serve a touchline ban and how Bould always seems like he's sitting on the bench with his mouth shut and is forced to let Wenger run everything.

Forced? Where does that come from?

 

[Makingtrax]

Not even a stadium ban.

Probably because what he said was true

 

[al-Ustaadh]

Forced? Where does that come from?

Forced by Wenger himself to do it all himself, i.e. there is nothing Bould can do. He is a control freak... you have to admit that much.

 

[Makingtrax]

I think one of my biggest gripes with him is for one specific game, let's use the away Chelsea game for an example....the team will be set up properly, the distances will be right, both wing backs or full backs will be sensible, the work-rate will be there and as a defensive unit we'll look good.

And then, it's like he just forgets. He reverts back to "just go out and play lads" and the players don't look switched on, there are massive gaps and we concede stupid goals. The frustration is if were to transform into a team who were hard to play against and were consistently solid defensively then Wenger can let them do their thing going forward. The balance hasn't been right. G Nev's right, look at that front three, Özil, Alexis and Lacazette, we could have only dreamed of that a while ago when we are playing Arshavin up front as a lone forward or Chamakh....it's what's going on behind them that's the issue.

I agree with that. Wenger's spent his big money on mainly forwards. That means you have to score more than you concede.

When Liverpool had Suarez in 2013/14 they let in a whopping 50 goals, a lot more than Arsenal. But they scored 101 goals that season and got over 80 points. Let that sink in.

I've proved that Wenger's balance has been good over the years, on the stats shown. This forward line are not scoring like they should for their cost.

 

[redanddread]

So that's just a result of your own viewpoint . . in the title race, bomb out, in the title race, bomb out etc.

A strange way of viewing our progress. What you're doing is calling 3/4th place inconsistency by another name, 'hope', 'no hope'. The rich 3 teams have carved up the league for 12 of the last 13 years, Wenger never had much chance. Not sure where your hope comes from.

How you mean he never had much chance - that's the biggest load of bollocks you've ever posted on here bro. We've led the league on several occasions only to implode at the wrong moment - just like I highlighted in the scenario you replied to.

 

[Makingtrax]

Forced by Wenger himself to do it all himself, i.e. there is nothing Bould can do. He is a control freak... you have to admit that much.

I don't know. Ray Palour on Sky a few days ago said he's quite relaxed and happy to laugh at himself in the club house. Doesn't sound like a control freak . . . like Mourinho.

 

[bingobob]

Interesting. But not buying it.

You don't cover how we concede, shipping ten goals to Bayern in two games. There is much more to us being considered a poor team at defending than looking at stats.

 

[Makingtrax]

How you mean he never had much chance - that's the biggest load of bollocks you've ever posted on here bro. We've led the league on several occasions only to implode at the wrong moment - just like I highlighted in the scenario you replied to.

That's not b*llocks, it's a fact. We don't implode, we're just not consistent enough to get well over 80 points.

United and the oil teams do it regularly, they've had a grip of the league for some time. Sp**s and Leicester have done it once in their entire history. We've done it 3 times in 21 years. Isn't that about what you'd expect?

 

[al-Ustaadh]

I don't know. Ray Palour on Sky a few days ago said he's quite relaxed and happy to laugh at himself in the club house. Doesn't sound like a control freak . . . like Mourinho.

Wenger does have his down-to-earth mannerisms but he's still a control freak. There's enough evidence to show that if you search it out with a level perspective. Don't get me wrong, I love Wenger. I think it's amazing what he's achieved and I've never been Wenger Out (though if certain things don't change that position could change for myself).

 

[Makingtrax]

Interesting. But not buying it.

You don't cover how we concede, shipping ten goals to Bayern in two games. There is much more to us being considered a poor team at defending than looking at stats.

You don't have to buy it, the facts aren't lying just because you don't like them.

If you disagree, show me what's wrong with them.

 

[Makingtrax]

Wenger does have his down-to-earth mannerisms but he's still a control freak. There's enough evidence to show that if you search it out with a level perspective. Don't get me wrong, I love Wenger. I think it's amazing what he's achieved and I've never been Wenger Out (though if certain things don't change that position could change for myself).

It's definitely time for a change bro. Just don't like all the nonsense that people post.

I've looked for the evidence that Wenger can't defend to save his life. But can't find it.

 

[Masterdon]

I think Wenger punching above his weight is the biggest myth of all. Between 97-04 he was up against Fergie and managed to finish 1st 3 times in a 2 horse race which to be fair he did an amazing job against a much richer club. Once Abramovich and Chelsea turned up we were no longer challenging for the title. Top 4 was easy until City turned up but you could always rely on Sp**s/Pool and the occasional Chelsea/Utd meltdown to keep us in the top 4.

I think giving Wenger credit for finishing top 4 in the early Emirates era when our competition for 4th place were Everton and Villa shows a serious lack of critical thinking. Not to mention all the times we barely scraped 4th because of lasagna or our direct opponents screwing it up.

Now there are 6 strong clubs going for those 4 places Wenger has dropped to 5th spot. Let’s see how he does this season up against the 6. Doubtless the transfer profit he made and the 80m in squad cost that is walking away to rival clubs will provide an excuse for his defenders but it will be a weak one to anyone who actually has a clue.

 

[RoadrunnerReloaded]

I came here 3 seasons ago and have argued that Wenger has always outperformed his squad cost, which climbed to 4th in 2016/17 for the first time in years. His average finishing position is 2.8. No doubt it puts his achievements into context.

Except this is not really true.

From 98-2003 we were in top 2 of economic measures and objectively had one of the two best squads in the league in that time.
So by the reasoning you continually use(luck is more important than manager influence), 98-2004 Wenger did not outperform any metric. I personally think Wenger did a phenomenal job but then I think the manager makes a bigger difference than luck.

Also you never provided a valid definition of what "outperforming squad cost" even means to you. Is there no standard deviation, so finishing one place higher or lower is "outperforming or underperforming"?

If so, the last three seasons the League Champions outperformed their squad cost so its really not that unique. It happens every year. Chelsea were a distant 3rd to both Manchesters and Leicester obviously were far down the list. But you have denied in the past Chelsea's last two League wins were outperforming their squad cost. So there has never really been a consistent theory here.

 

[A_G]

Makingtrax is right tbh, it's just not reasonable to expect to compete with these clubs anymore. It dawned on me after Chelsea scored their 2nd and looked like they were going to win; the players put in a great effort, but that's just not enough against clubs who've been spending £100m+ for years now. Wenger has spent more in the last few years but this club is really behind the eight ball in that respect, you look at the front 3 cost £125m which is great but Chelsea's bench was £138m.

I'm going to readjust my expectations going foward to avoid disappointment after bad results.

 

[Makingtrax]

I think Wenger punching above his weight is the biggest myth of all. Between 97-04 he was up against Fergie and managed to finish 1st 3 Times in a 2 horse race which to be fair he did an amazing job against a much rich club. Once Abramovich and Chelsea turned up we were no longer challenging for the title. Top 4 was easy until City turned up but you could always rely on Sp**s/Pool and the occasional Chelsea/Utd meltdown to keep us in the top 4.

I think giving Wenger credit for finishing top 4 in the early Emirates era when our competition for 4th place were Everton and Villa shows a serious lack of critical thinking. Not to mention all the times we barely scraped 4th because of lasagna or out other opponents screwing it up.

Now there are 6 clubs going for those 4 places Wenger has dropped to 5th spot. Let’s see how he does this season up against 6. Doubtless the transfer profit he made and the 80m in squad cost that is walking away to rival clubs will provide an excuse for his defenders but it will be a weak one to anyone who actually has a clue.

You make it sound like finishing in the top 4 is really easy

If you think that, then what you say is about right. But here's the rub, it's not.

Since Fergie left in 2012/13 Man U with all their spending have managed top 4 only once.

Liverpool have spent more than us since 2004 and they've dropped out 7 times since then.

Even Chelsea droppedout in 2015/16 with all their oil money.

Wenger's managed 20 years straight regardless of spend. Even when we were a selling club during the stadium years. You're having a laugh.

 

[Masterdon]

You make it sound like finishing in the top 4 is really easy

If you think that, then what you say is about right. But here's the rub, it's not.

Since Fergie left in 2012/13 Man U with all their spending have managed top 4 only once.

Liverpool have spent more than us since 2004 and they've dropped out 7 times since then.

Even Chelsea droppedout in 2015/16 with all their oil money.

Wenger's managed 20 years straight regardless of spend. Even when we were a selling club during the stadium years. You're having a laugh.

You’re having a laugh saying that. Wengers main rivals have been Everton and Villa for 4th place during the difficult Emirates years how difficult was it to finished ahead of them? Wenger has also had the advantage of stability and the full backing of the board with no expectations of challenging for anything. He scraped 4th quite a few times before finally dropping out.

Wenger could always have done better with transfers. Selling club is down to him using inaccurate valuations on players resulting in us missing out on top class players for what are now bargain prices.

I don’t think he’s done badly he’s been stable and consistent but if you think one of the richest teams in the world finishing 3rd/4th every year without even a hint of a title challenge is outperforming then you need to get your standards out of the toilet.

 

[RoadrunnerReloaded]

Makingtrax is right tbh, it's just not reasonable to expect to compete with these clubs anymore. It dawned on me after Chelsea scored their 2nd and looked like they were going to win; the players put in a great effort, but that's just not enough against clubs who've been spending £100m+ for years now. Wenger has spent more in the last few years but this club is really behind the eight ball in that respect, you look at the front 3 cost £125m which is great but Chelsea's bench was £138m.

I'm going to readjust my expectations going foward to avoid disappointment after bad results.

No one, I repeat no one has ever said they expect to win as regularly or as much as the oil clubs. That is just a nonsense strawmen that gets trolled out to obfuscate valid criticisms that have been made.
Once we have optimized our club within our means and its still not enough we can say oh well we did our best. But we haven't been doing our best as an organization in almost a decade- basically since Dein left and the old board was more interested in cashing out after the Emirates.


Have we maximized our resources?
As a club we were far closer to Manchester United in economic metrics in 2006 than we are today. The club itself deserves a lot of blame for failing to keep up with modern times. Our commercial deals were a far higher percentage of United's 12-15 years ago than they are today. We still aren't getting money from a sleeve sponsor as other clubs, etc. This one is not on Wenger but can't be ignored.

Penny wise, Pound stupid
Our strategy has been far too penny wise and pound stupid.
Kante and Higuain are two perfect examples that illustrate our poor choices as a club the last few years (those two decisions plus the 40+1 are on everyone at the club- they all share blame for those screw ups). We hoarded cash in the bank like a greedy miser (perhaps this was actually Kroenke's selfish strategy we don't really know) when using that cash for footballing assets would have been far more intelligent.

Its not our performance relative to the Manchester Clubs but our performance relative to Liverpool and Tottenham that are troubling.
Again, no one expects us to compete with the oil clubs. What they expect is for us not to fall behind Liverpool and Tottenham which we look perilously close to doing.

This is where our organization as a whole (and Wenger deserves some of the blame here) has grown complacent and stagnant. It is encouraging to see the new signings behind the scenes. The club is finally started to react, but as an organization we are far too slow and not agile enough. That criticism was echoed in that interview with Wenger's friends this summer when they said Wenger lacked the support structures other managers at other clubs have and Wenger himself even said it wasn't the lack of money but our club not being quick enough.

 

[Makingtrax]

Makingtrax is right tbh, it's just not reasonable to expect to compete with these clubs anymore. It dawned on me after Chelsea scored their 2nd and looked like they were going to win; the players put in a great effort, but that's just not enough against clubs who've been spending £100m+ for years now. Wenger has spent more in the last few years but this club is really behind the eight ball in that respect, you look at the front 3 cost £125m which is great but Chelsea's bench was £138m.

I'm going to readjust my expectations going foward to avoid disappointment after bad results.

Well said bro.

Personally I was surprised at these stats. Thought Wenger would be higher for 'goals for' than 'goals against'. Just goes to show how easily we're deceived.