Wenger: the red myths descend

[Makingtrax]

You’re having a laugh saying that. Wengers main rivals have been Everton and Villa for 4th place during the difficult Emirates years how difficult was it to finished ahead of them? Wenger has also had the advantage of stability and the full backing of the board with no expectations of challenging for anything. He scraped 4th quite a few times before finally dropping out.

Wenger could always have done better with transfers. Selling club is down to him using inaccurate valuations on players resulting in us missing out on top class players for what are now bargain prices.

I don’t think he’s done badly he’s been stable and consistent but if you think one of the richest teams in the world finishing 3rd/4th every year without even a hint of a title challenge is outperforming then you need to get your standards out of the toilet.

Not that old chestnut. We may have a lot of assets and even some money in the bank, but you can only go on what Wenger has spent. And on that front my research shows that only once have we reached 4th for the cost of the squad in 2016/17, we're 5th again this year. And for years we were a selling club during the stadium build. 20 years of top 4 is excellent. You pretending it's not doesn't change anything.

Anyway, this isn't the squad cost thread it's about Wenger as a defensive/attacking manager and stats to prove it.

 

[Rex Stone]

I think my problem with squad cost lies in the use of money we have available. I'm aware that we're never gonna compete pound for pound with the super rich 3. However we don't make the use out of our still considerable resources.

This summer for example I felt we did well with the Lacazette and Kolasinac transfers and was glad to see us go after M'Bappe.

The negative side was the Lemar situation, we seemed to lump all eggs into that basket and once Ox demanded to leave a panic set in. Wacking down 90M as an offer for him shows even accounting for the Ox sale we still had a good 50M available plus whatever other resources we could dedicate to a financial package for him.

This is with the club believing they had the ability financially to take the hit of losing Özil and Alexis on free transfers and a season without CL money.

Maybe instead of trying to play chicken with Monaco we should've identified other areas of investment namely our defence.

Mustafi was apparently wanting out well before the Pool fiasco, per was staying for one more year and Kos has a serious tendinitis problem which makes you wonder how much longer he can play for.

Each summer we leave ourselves too much to do, we're potentially losing 5 starting caliber players next year then pretty much everyone else the year after, succession planning should have been put in place for this happening last summer.

 

[A_G]

@RoadrunnerReloaded I don't disagree with much of what you say, I've even argued similar. Wenger has missed opportunities in the market and we've suffered for it, but the disparity in talent with the top clubs would still exist imo.

I think it's time for a new manager too, I just don't expect things to change dramatically until we get rid of Kroenke. You mention Liverpool and Sp**s but I feel the main difference is at the board/owner level. FSG and Lewis/Levy are clearly more committed to winning than Stan/Chips/LHP, these people set the tone for the entire club and unless they're replaced I'm not sure of the extent to which a new manager can turns things around. Of course there might be a difference on match days but the same problems will still exist at the top of the club, plus there's every chance they'll just hire a yes man as opposed to a manager who demands funds like Conte, Mourinho etc.

 

[Makingtrax]

The negative side was the Lemar situation, we seemed to lump all eggs into that basket and once Ox demanded to leave a panic set in. Wacking down 90M as an offer for him shows even accounting for the Ox sale we still had a good 50M available plus whatever other resources we could dedicate to a financial package for him.

Thought the Lemar offer was only on condition that we sell Sanchez for £65m.

 

[IslingtonBornandbred]

I'm not sure though, amongst other things, if you can solely use stats as a measure to assess whether Wenger is a good attacking coach or a good or bad defensive coach. Some things are just seen on the pitch and from the stands by the naked eye. The large majority of football experts and whoever else will tell you that Wenger hasn't got the balance right for nearly 10 years now in terms of the defensive set-up. It stems back from pushing both Clichy and Sagna up the pitch and getting caught on the break against the top teams in Europe and in the League.

I'm not sure exactly what stats can show in this regard. It's all linked to tactics, game management and how he sets the team up in certain games. In terms of averages we need to remember pretty much everyone believes there is a "top 6" so you aren't going to concede a lot of goals against the other mid-lower teams.

I just think it's an impossible argument to argue that Wenger is as good as a defensive coach/manager as he is as an attacking coach/manager. I think a couple of the main reasons we haven't done better or even better over the years even with our "squad cost" is an in-balance with no respect shown to the opponents out of possession and a disregard for the defensive part of the game in all areas including transfers, profile of player and tactics.

And let's say City didn't sign Kompany and Toure, and we signed them. Imagine, we didn't sign let's say Arshavin and Nasri for 30 million and signed Kompany and Toure combined for 30 million (which they cost), it wouldn't probably be as much as a debate because Wenger wouldn't need to be a good defensive coach because he'd have addressed the areas appropriately. He's the one that chose to stockpile a bunch of midgets instead of addressing the defence and central midfield area.

 

[Masterdon]

Is the board really to blame for the transfer situation? I mean can anyone show one situation where Wenger was denied reasonable funds by the board?

If he had told the board back then let’s sign Higuain, Suarez and Özil this window is there any evidence he would be rejected? I just find it hard to believe a legendary long serving manager like Wenger could be denied funds as long as they are available. Which they certainly are.

Problems in attack and defense are down to personnel it’s always been that way with Wenger. He isn’t the type of coach to grind out results he’s going to go for it with an unbalanced team.

 

[bingobob]

You don't have to buy it, the facts aren't lying just because you don't like them.

If you disagree, show me what's wrong with them.

What is at Wenger says about using stats for scouting? You put the metrics in you get some results and then you watch them. You use both but you have to be careful with the stats, how long are they cooked up?

I know the stats are dodgy because I've seen us crumble enough times. I know only a few years ago we've had keepers obtain the golden gloves yet. The eye cannot unsee what it has seen. Mertesacker diving in for tackles in the opposition half with no cover, one long ball killing our defence, a clearance from a corner putting teams one on one.

 

[hydrofluoric acid]

What is at Wenger says about using stats for scouting? You put the metrics in you get some results and then you watch them. You use both but you have to be careful with the stats, how long are they cooked up?

I know the stats are dodgy because I've seen us crumble enough times. I know only a few years ago we've had keepers obtain the golden gloves yet. The eye cannot unsee what it has seen. Mertesacker diving in for tackles in the opposition half with no cover, one long ball killing our defence, a clearance from a corner putting teams one on one.

The problem with the eye and the mind analyzing the game is that you can't remember everything. You count a lot of bad things but no good things there in your comment. Negative people will always only talk about the negative things, and focus on them during the games.

The truth is, and stats back it up, is that we are decent team with good manager. Not great, not a title winning team. But nobody can expect that in current climate and with owners lacking ambition.

 

[Makingtrax]

I'm not sure though, amongst other things, if you can solely use stats as a measure to assess whether Wenger is a good attacking coach or a good or bad defensive coach. Some things are just seen on the pitch and from the stands by the naked eye. The large majority of football experts and whoever else will tell you that Wenger hasn't got the balance right for nearly 10 years now in terms of the defensive set-up. It stems back from pushing both Clichy and Sagna up the pitch and getting caught on the break against the top teams in Europe and in the League.

I'm not sure exactly what stats can show in this regard. It's all linked to tactics, game management and how he sets the team up in certain games. In terms of averages we need to remember pretty much everyone believes there is a "top 6" so you aren't going to concede a lot of goals against the other mid-lower teams.

I just think it's an impossible argument to argue that Wenger is as good as a defensive coach/manager as he is as an attacking coach/manager. I think a couple of the main reasons we haven't done better or even better over the years even with our "squad cost" is an in-balance with no respect shown to the opponents out of possession and a disregard for the defensive part of the game in all areas including transfers, profile of player and tactics.

And let's say City didn't sign Kompany and Toure, and we signed them. Imagine, we didn't sign let's say Arshavin and Nasri for 30 million and signed Kompany and Toure combined for 30 million (which they cost), it wouldn't probably be as much as a debate because Wenger wouldn't need to be a good defensive coach because he'd have addressed the areas appropriately. He's the one that chose to stockpile a bunch of midgets instead of addressing the defence and central midfield area.

If your tactics are poor in this difficult league, would you be averaging 2.8 in the league for 'clean sheets' and 3.4 for 'goals against' is what I'm asking?

 

[Makingtrax]

What is at Wenger says about using stats for scouting? You put the metrics in you get some results and then you watch them. You use both but you have to be careful with the stats, how long are they cooked up?

I know the stats are dodgy because I've seen us crumble enough times. I know only a few years ago we've had keepers obtain the golden gloves yet. The eye cannot unsee what it has seen. Mertesacker diving in for tackles in the opposition half with no cover, one long ball killing our defence, a clearance from a corner putting teams one on one.

The stats are not dodgy. We're averaging 2.8 for clean sheets, over 5 years and 3.4 for goals against. Wouldn't a clueless defensive manager be a lot worse?

 

[IslingtonBornandbred]

If your tactics are poor in this difficult league, would you be averaging 2.8 in the league for 'clean sheets' and 3.4 for 'goals against' is what I'm asking?

Dunno man.

Tactics can be poor in important situations and moments in seasons. Against Monaco at home, we pulled a goal back to make it 1-2. We had already been caught on the counter by Martial, and with one minute left we were flying forward trying to make it 2-2 and they caught us again and killed the tie. Against Chelsea we brought it back to 2-2 but straight after kick off Morata was one on one and they hit the bar. It's this sort of reckless mayhem that has to be addressed.

A clueless defensive manager would get found out a lot quicker at a lesser team because he's not as fortunate to have player's going the other way who are top quality.

Across the board given our resources and quality of player we have, have had and can buy I think most managers in this league would achieve a league finish between 6th and 3rd at Arsenal. You'd have to be pretty * to do at lot worse. And yeah, at one point Chelsea finished mid table but then won the league so who here wouldn't swap finishing 5th for 12th if we won the league the next year?

I think the stats show that Wenger's doing OK. He's not doing great. He's not destroying the club but OK's not good enough for the majority. They want to see something new, someone new, new ideas, fresh ideas. Wenger version 2/3 has had his go now, he hasn't been able to win the league, he hasn't shown any intention. to do anything different so it's time for him to move on and let someone else try and see what happens.

 

[Trilly]

Just ignore all the proof I've shown and say it's wrong with no justification. OK, I'm used to that on here

I don’t think I tried to void anything you said. I just added to it.

For all the stats we can all agree that this team isn’t playing to their potential right?

 

[Makingtrax]

I think the stats show that Wenger's doing OK. He's not doing great.

He's done a lot better than OK and 7 FA Cups is quite something. But we're agreed it's time for a change.

 

[Makingtrax]

I don’t think I tried to void anything you said. I just added to it.

For all the stats we can all agree that this team isn’t playing to their potential right?

The conclusions from trawling of the table stats from a the last 5 years are:
- Wenger/Bould have been no weaker in defence than attack as tacticians over the years
- Our defensive results have dropped off last season and this, likely due to aging CBs/goalie and the replacement youngsters not fulfilling their perceived potential.

Not sure what that's got to do with your post above. Sorry bro, I must be missing something.

 

[krakenzero]

How is Leicester doing in the same stats?

 

[Makingtrax]

How is Leicester doing in the same stats?

Sorry, no idea bro. Why?

 

[Jury]

We do bottle big games against the big teams. FA Cup aside I guess. The FA Cup has saved Arséne's arse and at least put us back on the silverware path however we all realise that the FA Cup is of lesser importance than the League & the CL - fortunately it has saved our season for a while now.

The cups have made it ok to fail. That's all it's done. And prolonged the future of a failing, hopeless dinosaur of a manager. That's all it's done.

No stats will ever change what I know, and that is Wenger is history and I do not respect his recent efforts. The next manager will show exactly why what he's produced these last ten years isn't worthy of much respect.

 

[redanddread]

One thing I've noticed is that Wenger isn't absolutely terrible at anything (setting up a defensive team structure is probably his biggest weakness) he's just bad at a lot of little things which aggregate.

One season we'll be brilliant away, but terrible at home then vice versa. Sometimes we'll be excellent defensively (14/15 I think?) but stale upfront then we'll be excellent offensively (16/17) and woeful defensively.

It means things never look bad with a high level view, but we know, we all know.

That's the thing, you can dress it up all you want, but we all know.

 

[redanddread]

So that's just a result of your own viewpoint . . in the title race, bomb out, in the title race, bomb out etc.

A strange way of viewing our progress. What you're doing is calling 3/4th place inconsistency by another name, 'hope', 'no hope'. The rich 3 teams have carved up the league for 12 of the last 13 years, Wenger never had much chance. Not sure where your hope comes from.

No what I'm saying is that Wenger has been unable to push his team over the finish line despite being in good positions on several occasions & the failure to do has been fairly consistent in it's execution. Bro, if you're blind to the capitulations that we've seen over the past decade when the real stuff is on the line then I can't help you man. Keep the faith

 

[redanddread]

People wanting rid of Kroenke remember that it wasn't he that decided it was quite Ok to be the ONLY team in the top 5 european Leagues NOT to buy an outfield player a few seasons ago. The problems with Kroenke should be that he gives Arsène too much slack & being satisfied with a cash-cow of a football club rather than a winning one. Kroenke has ponied up the money when he's needed to imo.