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Mesut Özil: Time to Move Ön?

Do you want Özil sold this summer?


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BobP

Memri Fan
FC9DbYs.jpg
 

Mark Tobias

Mr. Agreeable
Why the uproar? Our players have taken pictures with war criminals like Tony Blair long before Özil did. No one has bat an eyelid, I wonder why?
This opinion, which I share, is why I don;t get the uproar either. Not that I knew who this Erdogan dude was anyway until I googled him.
 

Stannis

Well-Known Member
May not have had much of a choice seeing his wife's family live in Turkey . Very hard to turn down Presidential requests .


He has been hanging with Erdogan since his Madrid days, it’s nothing new. Just back then Turkey and the UK/EU policy positions were more aligned, hence why he didn’t hear about it even though abuses against journalists were occurring at the time
 

celestis

Arsenal-Mania Veteran
Moderator

Country: Australia
He has been hanging with Erdogan since his Madrid days, it’s nothing new. Just back then Turkey and the UK/EU policy positions were more aligned, hence why he didn’t hear about it even though abuses against journalists were occurring at the time

Even harder to turn him down then :lol:.
 

Rain Dance

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
Why the uproar? Our players have taken pictures with war criminals like Tony Blair long before Özil did. No one has bat an eyelid, I wonder why?
Well, this is probably equal to having a cup of tea with Trump

I pretty much see how Germans' view on this matter as Erdogan regardless of his political view Erdogan is not their president, Gundogan is obviously more guilty in this, and this event makes them can be seen as less of a good citizen.
 

Flying Okapis

Most Well-Known Member
Not sure I care, players have their own mind, if they want to pose with unsavoury character's thats up to them, if they identify as Turkish over German than so what, plenty of players represent countries they dont really identify with.

Everyone has a different political view, Özil and Gundogan's may be different to the norm, maybe they dont care at all, but it is only a meeting, they might think the guy is an absolute tosser behind closed doors, it must be somewhat difficult to refuse to do stuff at times when in the public eye as you will always upset someone.

The thing what bothers me is if they dont deal with the situation and try make out it was something else, if they chose to meet with him then go with that, own the situation and dont be worried about it, dont make out it was a chance passing whilst walking through London etc
 

Toby

No longer a Stuttgart Fan
Moderator
I didn't make the sisi comparison to say two wrong make a right. I did it for perspective. Is Erodgan an abuser of rights but western standards, you bet he is. The focus on him though is because of that, but it's because of his geopolitical policy decisions that Western powers and Saudi Arabia dont agree with, and so there has been this push to portray him alongside the likes of Sadaam, Asad and so on, which is just lazy and disingenuous .

I get the German component of this, its a more complex issue, because a lot of the Turkish German Diaspora were those of a more religious streak that was forced out due to persecution after Ataturk's reforms. Even stuff like wearing a Fez was once upon a time banned in Turkey let alone religious garments. Those people don't forget and to them, Erdogan is a hero. Özil belongs to one of those families. Equally, Erdogan is reviled by another segment of Turkish society, one that we here in the West can relate to more. Whether Özil himself cares about the issues we don't know, but I don't think he is an idiot plus has been around Erodgan in years gone past.

It isn't like he met Kim Jong Un or Bashir Al Asad though, perspective is needed and this reaction has already gone over the top.

Not going into a political debate in the Özil thread.
 

Toby

No longer a Stuttgart Fan
Moderator
I pretty much see how Germans' view on this matter as Erdogan regardless of his political view Erdogan is not their president, Gundogan is obviously more guilty in this, and this event makes them can be seen as less of a good citizen.

This is it. This has blown up massively. It's all over news, politics, radio, TV. On the frontpages of newspapers.

I get your stances, but if you go at it from the angle "famous people have their right to support whoever they want and people have supported somewhat dodgy/bad people forever, and it's not like Erdogan is Hitler" - you approach it from the wrong angle/context to be able to understand why this is such a big thing for the german public right now.

Might be a little off but acceptable to non-german Arsenal fans, but over here it's a full blown scandal.

Edit: Löw will nominate his pre squad for the WC at 11.30. He's guaranteed to be confronted with the situation.
 

Toby

No longer a Stuttgart Fan
Moderator
Will be all over the papers tomorrow. This thing is big in Germany.
with all the nationalists out of the woodwork it's especially things like these that get twisted/described as "germans of foreign descent reaping the benefits of the german passport but honoring/loving their family's home country more"

BILD has the story on its frontpage with the following headline in big, red, capital letters: Playing for Germany but fighting for Erdogan.
Knew it right away **** like this would happen. BILD is a **** outlet, but heavy hitters in influencing public opinion.
 

Toby

No longer a Stuttgart Fan
Moderator
It looks bad but Özil probably would take a picture with Gulen too if he asked, doubt it's a political endorsement.

I kinda agree here.

While it may have looked like I'm massively enraged about the event, I actually just think it's somewhat stupid and indecent.

I mostly tried to show the non-german forum members how big of an issue this is over here, for various reasons and on various levels, stretching across from DFB and german football and their integrative work, to international relations, to socio-political tensions regarding migration and religion, to current nationalist tendencies, to the current state of media. I mean, one of Arsenal's best players and top earner is involved in something that's turning into a public scandal of political and social scope, that could (but probabaly won't) affect his chances of playing at the World Cup in Russia. Thought that might be interesting.

Right now, there's a big presser on live TV with DFB boss Grindel - and the incident is the big theme. They basically scrapped/delayed the squad announcement by Low and made it a panel debate about football, integration and public responsibility.

On an endnote: Who can really blame these guys (or athletes in general) for consequently lacking any political instincts, when officials and organisations try to de-politize the sport, albeit it's massive social dimension and impact, at any given instance. If not for this, we'd not only have to ask why two german players are posing with the turkish president for a campaign picture, but also what kind of political funtion sporting events like the WC fulfill for the respective host and any participants. Football does its best to distance itself from politics, while clearly being abused as a political means. If head organisations don't show instincts here, again, how can we expect that of two footballers?
 
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el57

Well-Known Member
Apparently Can turned down the photo op. Sigh, Özil should have been as wise; touching any situation with Erdoğan, whether pro or against or neutral, is just dangerous waters for a Turkish-German to go into without getting into controversy.
 

A_G

Rice Rice Baby 🎼🎵
A-M CL Draft Campeón 🏆
While it may have looked like I'm massively enraged about the event, I actually just think it's somewhat stupid and indecent.

I mostly tried to show the non-german forum members how big of an issue this is over here, for various reasons and on various levels, stretching across from DFB and german football and their integrative work, to international relations, to socio-political tensions regarding migration and religion, to current nationalist tendencies, to the current state of media. I mean, one of Arsenal's best players and top earner is involved in something that's turning into a public scandal of political and social scope, that could (but probabaly won't) affect his chances of playing at the World Cup in Russia. Thought that might be interesting.
I completely understand, I know Özil has some social responsibility due to his background and instances like this are red meat for the likes of the AfD.
 

c00lguy

Active Member
I couldn't care less who he's taking pictures with.
It's the supposed 'feigning injury' part that bugs me. He has an obligation to Arsenal FC.
 

krengon

One Arsène Wenger
Trusted ⭐
. And with all the nationalists out of the woodwork it's especially things like these that get twisted/described as "germans of foreign descent reaping the benefits of the german passport but honoring/loving their family's home country more" - and used by nationalists to stir the pot. It's big. Wouldn't surprise me if the AFD, the nationalist party, comments on it for some publicity.

Especially Gundogan has come under fire, as he actually signed his shirt and wrote onto it: "With great respect to my president". The scandal for germans: He's not his president, as Gundogan is a german citizen, not a turkish one.

I get it though, I probably feel just as connected if not more to my parents home country than the one I was born and raised in.

If I'm talking about my parents home country I'd use "my, our, we" etc too, just as I would about the country I was born in.
 

Toby

No longer a Stuttgart Fan
Moderator
I get it though, I probably feel just as connected if not more to my parents home country than the one I was born and raised in.

If I'm talking about my parents home country I'd use "my, our, we" etc too, just as I would about the country I was born in.

I get that, too. I'm not of 100% german ancestry either, got grandparents from other countries/of foreign descent and feel somewhat connected to this heritage. And that's absolutely alright and not the problem here.

It's that Özil and Gundogan as rolemodels and public representatives of german football have chosen to partake in the re-election campaign of a foreign country's president, regardless of if it's where their families originate from, who's applying borderline autocratic political means and has a somewhat strained relationship with Germany. Top that of with the public tension regarding migration, national identification and religion unfortunately at hand, and you end up with a very delicate situation.

@Stannis made a good and valid point why especially those families who have migrated to Germany (or elsewhere) from Turkey revere Erdogan.
But generally speaking and devoid of ideological implications, I don't think just because your family hails from a certain place, you're automatically bound to support that country, it's representatives or politics. The same applies for me to the country whose passport you carry. Such stances I find a bit idiosyncratic.

EDIT: To add something...This is also not about Turkey bashing or going off against the next autocratic guy blind eyeing other autocrats or Europe. E.g. there's a lot to be critical about regarding german politics and our system, and I found it just as offputting as the Özil-Erdogan incident when various female german celebrities came out to support Angela Merkel during her last re-run on the grounds of her being a woman (dislcaimer: this is not about being against female equality). Doing that is just the same as supporting Erdogan 'cause your parents are from Turkey. I mean both is understandable, but at the same time it's such a singular viewpoint in both instances and just highlights a lack of political understanding and finesse.
 
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