What happened to Super Jack?

Discussion in 'Arsenal Talk' started by Rex Banner, Oct 7, 2019.

?

Which answer is the right one?

  1. Potential world class player destroyed by injuries

    89.5%
  2. Overrated from day one and is at his true level

    10.5%
  1. Rex Banner

    Rex Banner Welsh Dialsquare Trusted

    Let’s have some international break chat about a player no longer at Arsenal.

    I watched the West Ham - Palace game the other day and I actually was struck by how sad I was that Jack Wilshere was coming off the bench for West Ham and behind Mark Noble’s corpse in the pecking order.

    I just wonder where everyone think it went wrong, were those early years all hype or was it the injuries that packed him in? There were those other rumours about his year long lay off in 2011/12.

    I thought he was going to be the greatest England player in a generation, when Wenger sold Vieira it was to make room for Fabregas. When he sold Fabregas I thought it was to make room for Wilshere who I thought was going to kick on to superstar level.

    Question is what happened and what are your memories of him as an Arsenal player?



    Mandatory viewing.
     
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  2. MutableEarth

    MutableEarth Bloody awesome NSFW avatars Trusted

    He got hurt really bad and never recovered. He missed well over a year of football after his breakout season. His development after returning also didn't go so good, as his style of play became less focused on his strengths - which were his dribbling in tight spaces and his technical ability - particularly his passing. He had a great final ball when he was coming up in the game. He tried to be Steven Gerrard, like every other British CM around that time, but that wasnt his game. He lost his agility, the injuries kept happening and going to Bournemouth to save his England career backfired.

    Had he never got hurt in 2011 he would still be an Arsenal player and things may have been different. He was definitely Hale Ends biggest talent, definitely around that time too, and it's a shame that for all his ability, his injuries stopped him from fulfilling his vast potential.
     
  3. Toby Andrl

    Toby Andrl Part Time Stuttgart Fan Trusted

    For me: Injuries. Absolutely. Same with Ramsey. The latter recovered a bit better overall, but they were both denied the real heights they could've gone to by injuries. Next in line is Fabregas. Sure, his Barca return and Guardiola not knowing what to do with an attacking mid in a false 9 system did their thing, and he developed into a fine dlp at Chelsea, but the guy was practically done in his late 20s. A good while ago I posted a study on health issues related to injuries suffered at a young age by pros, and that's what happened imo with these guys. Getting your legs broken as teenagers while still growing is cutting your fitness and career short.

    Edit: And the lower the leagues the worse this problem gets. Of all the people who went through youth systems and played profesionally at any level, there's about 2 or 3 who have no long lasting physical problems, and the lower they played the worse the problem as there's no professional medical system in place. 90% of people I know who play Handball, Volleyball, Tennis or Fistball have long lasting shoulder and/or knee issue they can't get rid of. Footballers usually have knee or foot injuries they carry forever. I know you can't handle any low league player like an 80m transfer fee guy, but overall the handling of injuries has to get more professional. It's an absolute no go that someone who started playing at 8, goes through several youth teams and plays lower leagues til 31 suffers from chronic aches cause he wasn't treated right when he was 24 cause he was playing 5th instead of 2nd or 1st league.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
  4. Rex Banner

    Rex Banner Welsh Dialsquare Trusted

    I felt like Cazorla that because he’d naturally play in really tight spaces the opposition would kick lumps out of him.

    The Gerrard comparisons used to infuriate me, it sounds ridiculously hyperbolic in hindsight but he seemed to me a Xavi/Iniesta hybrid. He was great dictating play from deep but he could carry the ball away from the opposition so well and play in the final third.
     
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  5. GunnerBP

    GunnerBP Well-Known Member Trusted

    Jack is an example of some of the greatest contradictions of English football.

    Once the dominance of European soccer shifted to Spain, England needed to develop players with the technical ability and intelligence of the Spanish, and rely less on physicality. Jack was that player and English teams decided to kick lumps out of him and stunt his development.

    Ironically, similar Spanish players whose development was never stunted by serious injuries like David Silva and Mata come to England and change the game. They had just that fraction more of experience to navigate the EPL.

    He should have been one of England's greatest players, but England's football philosophy, which doesn't produce at the highest level, just physically destroyed him.

    It is really sad.
     
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  6. BigPoppaPump

    BigPoppaPump Laca Respect for Alexandre

    Wilshere definitely got done in by injuries. He missed a year of development came back missed another year rinse and repeat, he never had a chance.

    However, even though I think the injuries was the majority of the issue it was strange how he came back from one of those injuries really bulked up. All that muscle never suited him it looked like he was carrying timber whenever he ran, looked really heavy carrying his legs. Also he would run around busting a gut trying to keep up with the likes of Alexis which as said previously was never his game.

    A mixture of injuries, bulking up past what suited his frame and that bulldozer style he tried to adopt where he kept getting sh*t kicked out of him ruined his career. After West Ham I see the Championship looming for poor Jack.
     
  7. Mark Tobias

    Mark Tobias Mr. Agreeable

    Miss Jack. Injuries definitely ruined him. But I also don't understand why some of these footballers are having kids etc so young. You have a short career, dominate it, the women will be there when you're done. Seems silly to be tied down so young and being a father myself I know the strain it can put on your other priorities.
     
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  8. razörist

    razörist Soft With The Ladies, Hard With The Mes

    Injuries yes.

    Also he's always going to be a better player in one of the Arsenal teams (before Emery) because he can play to his strenghts. West Ham asks a different type of football from him that he just doesn't fit.
     
  9. Ewarwoowar

    Ewarwoowar Well-Known Member

    Lack of cash>poor squad depth>too reliant on/overplaying the youngsters. Squad depth issue contrived to overplay and bring the player back too early from injury straight into the mix without easing in.

    Also the PL don't like beautiful football, they prefer blood and snot and dirty shenanigans.

    Really sad to see Jack now, still getting knocks that keep him limited playing time, it's not going to happen for him, needs to be drawing mobility allowance.
     
  10. Mark Tobias

    Mark Tobias Mr. Agreeable

    At least Jack still has somewhat of a career. Poor old Abou Diaby looked like the next Viera and his body just would not give him any time to showcase it.
     
  11. Rex Banner

    Rex Banner Welsh Dialsquare Trusted

    Fixed that for you.
     
  12. Mark Tobias

    Mark Tobias Mr. Agreeable

    Thanks. Much more accurate now!
     
    Rex Banner likes this.
  13. samshere

    samshere Why so serieuse?

    He decided to become fat. Can you recognize the twinkle toed player here to the one we see turning out for West Ham. I mourn the demise of half of my username. When I'd selected it I thought I'll see good use of it for more than a decade.
     
  14. bingobob

    bingobob Fan of Technicians Who Show Great Character

    The Jack Wilshere debate.

    I'm somewhere between not good enough and injuries. Young players generally play above their average level. Several reasons for this. They are fearless, they have nothing to lose and the opposition generally do not know them. After a period they are no longer fearless, if theyve performed well then they have something to lose and if theyve been playing well the opposition are much better clued into them. Inevitably a rise is followed by a fall (hence why I'm a big advocate of allowing a young player on form play until they hit that dip).

    After that they then have to show other traits e.g. mental strength and consistency. Injuries are an easy out to assume his career would have been upward but simply we dont know. We can look at other players from a similiar sample I.e. young players who hit with a bang but have not progressed beyond initial peak .Dele Alli, Ross Barkley, Ox. Theyve all been labelled something, the new Lampard, Evertons new Rooney and we all got excited after Ox vs Man Utd. But theyve all hit a brick wall, injuries or just a regression to the norm?

    Anyway, it's an answer we will never know where every opinion is valid because we simply do not know. Some will be overly optimistic to overly pessimistic. I think he would have had a good career but the real player killed by injuries was Diaby. On that I am overly optimistic that Diaby would have been a top central midfielder.
     
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  15. Mo Britain

    Mo Britain Doom Monger

    When fans talk about talented players they often leave out the boring bits of football, like defending or anticipating balls and so forth. We get excited by attacking play, especially when it is fluid or unexpected in some way.

    So yes, going forward I thought Jack could be the new Gazza or the new Le Tissier (more offensive player than Jack). And like Gazza some of his nemeses were of his won making. Indiscipline, on and off the pitch, didn't help in his younger days. Wenger showed rather more patience with him than he did with Chesney.

    However it was his physique and his style of play which were his undoing and our move to smaller, nimbler midfielders did not help. When you don't have midfield enforcers all the little 'uns, especially brave ones like Jack, have a go. And often they come off the worse for it. Santi Cazorla is a comparable player, and we know how many injuries he got, but Santi was far less reckless in how he flew into tackles than Jack and Jack has paid the price. All those injuries, loss of pace, bulking up.... they took their toll.

    Shame. He is a Gooner and that night when he bossed the midfield against one of the best Barcelona teams... that wasn't a fluke. That was his level.
     
  16. UpTheGunnerz

    UpTheGunnerz Phallus Obsessed

    Good thread but i will not be having Mark Noble called a corpse. He hans been really good under Pellegrini. That being said, you'd think Wilshere frome a couple of years ago would get into the West Ham side..
     
  17. Penn_

    Penn_ Established Member

    Didn’t help that we tried to develop him as a 10 when most of his best performances came playing deeper, Song was often more advanced than him.

    Only made him more susceptible to injuries, the one against Utd from Championship defender McNair was what really killed him.
     
  18. Ricardinho

    Ricardinho La Liga Correspondent

    Probably went through some dark times during all those injuries which can lead to unhealthy habits
     
  19. samshere

    samshere Why so serieuse?

    No it was a conscious decision to bulk up. When I call him fat I'm being crude, his bulk is mostly muscle. He made a choice to sacrifice his mobility to become harder to move off the ball. It seems to have affected him adversely injury wise.
     
  20. BenTal

    BenTal Active Member

    Jack was destroyed by injuries; however, I believe that he was not a world-class quality. His decision making was not the best, and to be honest finding the right pass or player is not totally related to the player's injuries. He was never comfortable with ball, and you could see his nervousness when he was asked to be the creative player in the pitch. I still don't know if he is a number 10 player or number 8 or 6.
     

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