Who among Ramsey/Özil/Cazorla should be dropped?

[Coolin]

It's not that he's gung ho all game though. Sometimes when you're chasing a game you need someone that's gonna take control. There's nothing more annoying than seeing us pass it around the box when we're losing. I wanna see shots and I wanna see attempted through balls.

I also think people are underestimating Ramsey's defensive contributions. He doesn't leave any more "holes" than a lot of other players who get off scot-free. If Özil loses the ball, he throws his hands up and then jogs back. If Ramsey loses the ball he tracks his man and slides in to win it back.

 

[GabeGooner]

It's not that he's gung ho all game though. Sometimes when you're chasing a game you need someone that's gonna take control. There's nothing more annoying than seeing us pass it around the box when we're losing. I wanna see shots and I wanna see attempted through balls.

I also think people are underestimating Ramsey's defensive contributions. He doesn't leave any more "holes" than a lot of other players who get off scot-free. If Özil loses the ball, he throws his hands up and then jogs back. If Ramsey loses the ball he tracks his man and slides in to win it back.

Ramsey is always out of position. When he plays on the right he's closing down the oppositions right-back on our left wing. He has no discipline. He'll go forward from CM time and time again, irrespective of whether it's the right time to do so or not. That's the problem.

Once Ramsey understands the tactical side of the game, he'll bring a lot to the team. However, right now, he's more of a liability than an asset – especially when Cazorla and Coquelin can control games so well together. All we need is someone to finish the chances Cazorla and Özil create, which hopefully we'll get sorted sooner rather than later. Once that happens, there's no need to sacrifice anything for a dynamic midfielder to 'make the difference'.

It's best exampled by looking at Barcelona. They play the same brand of football, but they don't operate with a Ramsey-type player. They have an intelligent ball-winner/intercepter in Busquets, then a deep-lying playmaker in Raktic (the Xavi role) and an attacking midfielder in Iniesta. We can mirror that with Coquelin, Cazorla and Wilshere (although Özil is by far the better #10). The only thing we can't mirror is the finishing. We have the wing-play (just about) with Sánchez and Walcott, but we have the wrong ST connecting it all together (much like Ibrahimović when he was at Barça). Get the ST, change the game, IMO.

 

[Coolin]

What we need is more goals from midfield, because Coquelin's not scoring. Cazorla's not scoring. And Özil's not scoring. The players most likely to score are Sanchez, Giroud, Walcott and Ramsey. So it makes sense to field all 4 if we're looking to score goals and win games.

 

[pikey2000]

I'm with @GabeGooner - I think people take dropping Ramsey to the bench personally like we are saying we don't like him or he isnt a good player which isn't the case. It's harsh to think of him being benched and to be honest it won't happen under Wenger but I really agree that his 2014 form and all the praise he got during that time with people talking about him as a potential world class CM is stuck in his head and he is now constantly striving to get those goals that brought him that acclaim.

Fact is, it wasn't just the goals, his all round play was very good, ball winning, distribution and the goals. I'd take -5 goals per season from him if he could employ some game sense, work on his positioning and time his runs forward a bit better leaving us less exposed.

People on here saying they just don't feel that Santi carries the same goal threat are nuts, the major difference is Santi will not leave the team exposed repeatedly in an attempt to find a goal, he is very selective in his forward play because right now he is the better team player!

I gaurentee a two footed player with the technique that Santi has would get as many goals as Ramsey does if he went forward with the same reckless abandon that Ramsey does at times!

 

[Maxim]

I see Ramsey has become the scapegoat once again.

Think everyone in this thread needs to watch the match back, apart from not playing in debuchy he did very little wrong and was our most dangerous player except for Ox. All the defensive work he does is also being completely ignored, you'd think he stood next to Adrian all game the way some of you are talking.

 

[Penn_]

I'm with @GabeGooner

People on here saying they just don't feel that Santi carries the same goal threat are nuts, the major difference is Santi will not leave the team exposed repeatedly in an attempt to find a goal, he is very selective in his forward play because right now he is the better team player!

I gaurentee a two footed player with the technique that Santi has would get as many goals as Ramsey does if he went forward with the same reckless abandon that Ramsey does at times!

No he wouldn't Cazorla's shooting outside of penalties has been awful for some while.

 

[clockwork orange]

I'm not scapegoating Ramsey. Would be insane too scapegoat a single player, with so many underperforming. IF there's one who deserves to be scapegoated it's Wenger.

I do have a question to those who watched a lot of his Wales peformances. How do you compare his performances/duties for Wales with those for Arsenal.? The reason I'm asking this is that it would make sense for Wales to give him more freedom to express himself (and make mistakes). At Wales he's one of the two players, who should make a difference. At Arsenal this is more of a shared responsibility , which also means more discipline.

 

[vP3rcy]

I think our best line-up would not include either Ramsey or Wilshere but we all know Wenger will fit them in when fit.

Cech
Hector Kos Per Nacho
Santi Coq
Ox Özil Alexis
Theo

Ospina
Debuchy Chambers Gabriel Gibbo
Ramsey Arteta
Wilshere Rosicky Welbeck
Giroud

Honestly I'd rather even see Campbell or Silva on the right over Ramsey/Cazorla.

 

[redwhiteAustrian]

I've always been one of Ramsey's biggest fans and backers, but as of yet, he has to stay out of the side.

He doesn't do his job properly, nor does he seem to have an discipline in his game at the moment. I think it's time for him to get a break to refocus on his game again and on what made him the player he was two seasons ago.

It's not about "Ramsey - goals = ****", at the moment it's "Ramsey + all action = ****" and that's not what it should be.

 

[4R5Emaniac]

Goals from midfield, trying to recover the ball is secondary to being able to actually build the game up in an organized way to score and not have frequent breakdowns.

No sense of positioning, regard for the team, woeful passing with poor weight/timing and running towards our own goal under minimal pressure doesn't go with the rest of the current team. Its as simple as that.

Don't know how he is for Wales but I saw this game against Belgium. Was playing behind the striker. Ran around a lot and usually, selfish and made the wrong decisions when in possession. Its irrelevant since Wales are a reactive team and other players actually, play at the heart of midfield.

He is a good player and has potential to do very well but he doesn't fit at the moment and his head his up his own ass.

For me, this season is his last chance and if doesn't work out, a move would be beneficial for both Arsenal and himself. He needs a disciplined manager who can maximize his potential- that's what he wants, to prove what he can do. I understand where he comes from since he is been through a lot of **** but his personal issues shouldn't come ahead of Arsenal.

 

[law90026]

I see Ramsey has become the scapegoat once again.

Think everyone in this thread needs to watch the match back, apart from not playing in debuchy he did very little wrong and was our most dangerous player except for Ox. All the defensive work he does is also being completely ignored, you'd think he stood next to Adrian all game the way some of you are talking.

The issue really is that if Ramsey doesn't carry out his role, it becomes detrimental to the team. Sure, he may not look as if he's doing anything wrong but not being disciplined means that others either have to cover for him not being where he should be or leaving gaps. That's at least part of the reason why our midfield wasn't able to cope.

If Ramsey wants to play like he is a Steven Gerrard (whom I personally think is overrated), he needs to have the team built around him so that he can be all-action, all the time but without as much responsibility. That's not how the team is set up though.

 

[Maxim]

Honestly I'd rather even see Campbell or Silva on the right over Ramsey/Cazorla.

I..I...just....what?

No sense of positioning, regard for the team, woeful passing with poor weight/timing and running towards our own goal under minimal pressure doesn't go with the rest of the current team.....

Wow, pitchforks are well and truly out for Ramsey. It's so simple and easy when you can just blame everything on a single player.

Remind me who slid Özil in for our best chance of the first half? who hit the bar? who played Ox in for him to hit the side netting?

Personally, I'm absolutely baffled as to how anyone can think swapping Ramsey out for anyone would have changed the outcome of that game.

There were bad performances all over the pitch, but as a team we weren't even that bad in the grand scheme of things, we score the first goal in that game and we walk it comfortably. Unfortunately, we conceded from a couple of silly errors and west ham can sit determinedly in their low block and see it out without actually having to do much going forward to win.

And now everyone can come out with their binary view that the problem was Ramsey in midfield, he's not disciplined enough, he's too attacking etc. This is an absolutely laughable criticism to pull out after this game, where we're desperate for a goal and concede from two errors. As @Coolin mentioned above, he tried (as he always does) to take responsibility and drive the team forward when we were desperate for a goal.

No mention of Coq's nightmare, Debuchy passing it to west ham at every opportunity, Giroud's comedy finishing, Özil's disappearance, Santi turning it over, Ox's mistakes despite his attacking verve.

Some perspective please, it was not a good performance, but it was not any one players fault or even a fault with the set-up.

 

[Maxim]

The issue really is that if Ramsey doesn't carry out his role, it becomes detrimental to the team. Sure, he may not look as if he's doing anything wrong but not being disciplined means that others either have to cover for him not being where he should be or leaving gaps. That's at least part of the reason why our midfield wasn't able to cope.

If Ramsey wants to play like he is a Steven Gerrard (whom I personally think is overrated), he needs to have the team built around him so that he can be all-action, all the time but without as much responsibility. That's not how the team is set up though.

Eh? What was our midfield unable to cope with?

 

[GabeGooner]

It's not about blaming everything on a single player. It's about assessing what each player brings to the team and discussing how that impacts upon the group as a unit. There's nothing wrong in saying something negative about a player, if it's constructive criticism; and no-one can be blamed if there are multiple negatives to highlight.

As it stands, it's more than fair to say Ramsey's lack of positional discipline and poor tactical understanding creates more work for the players around him (Bellerín/Debuchy when he's on the right flank, and Coquelin when he's at CM).

The reality is, Ramsey could be the most accurate passer on the pitch, but that's a useless quality if he can't make the right decision when choosing who to pass the ball to. Right now he has the best engine in the league, possibly, but he has no idea when to go forward and when to stay back. He can't read the game, so he overloads at the wrong time and is then too far up the pitch to offer an outlet to Coquelin when he needs to move the ball up field or away from danger.

Sometimes just being 6ft out of position is the difference between being in the right place or the wrong place to stop or create chances. So whilst he may be one player, and it may seem like he can't have that big of an impact, he can; Coquelin is one player, and look at the impact he's had.

 

[GabeGooner]

Eh? What was our midfield unable to cope with?

Ramsey going beyond Özil and not being around to support Coquelin. As a result – admittedly exacerbated with Cazorla on the left – we had 3 ACMs, no CM, no LW and no penetration or width. Coquelin was over-exposed on too many occasions and we got ripped apart on the counter.

 

[Enfield]

I don't see why it has to be one of these three. We were playing West Ham ffs and still needed a dedicated DM.

Whats wrong with two honest hardworking players like Ramsey and Cazorla in front of the back 4 and Özil in the middle up front with Ox and Sanchez either side of him.

If we get those guys in position we will hold possession a lot more and therefore have less need for a dedicated blocker like Coq

 

[Maxim]

It's not about blaming everything on a single player...

Read this thread back and tell me that isn't what people are doing.

It's about assessing what each player brings to the team and discussing how that impacts upon the group as a unit. There's nothing wrong in saying something negative about a player, if it's constructive criticism; and no-one can be blamed if there are multiple negatives to highlight.

Absolutely agree and I don't think this is constructive criticism at all, it's people parroting what they've heard because it's an easy thing to do after a difficult loss.

Let's look at what he brings to the team then, he brings runs from midfield both with and without the ball, when Giroud plays this is an absolute MUST. he needs midfield runners around him, have a look at what the Ramsey, Giroud, Özil triumvirate did to west ham at the tail end of last season, didn't hear anyone questioning Ramseys game then.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's infallible either. There is definitely a discussion to be had on his partnership with Coq, but I think there's as much onus on Coq as there is Ramsey in that instance.

The reality is, Ramsey could be the most accurate passer on the pitch, but that's a useless quality if he can't make the right decision when choosing who to pass the ball to.

I take this as a reference to him not playing Debuchy in which was a mistake, but this is the issue I have with peoples criticisms.

He's getting slaughtered for that and rightly so, but there is no mention of him creating two other chances by releasing the ball accurately and exactly at the right time with the 1-2 for Özil 1st half and Ox side netting 2nd half.

 

[Maxim]

Ramsey going beyond Özil and not being around to support Coquelin. As a result – admittedly exacerbated with Cazorla on the left – we had 3 ACMs, no CM, no LW and no penetration or width. Coquelin was over-exposed on too many occasions and we got ripped apart on the counter.

Sorry what?! Which game were you watching?

 

[4R5Emaniac]

@Maxim- I didn't say its all his fault and clearly, if anyone is to be blamed for that game, its Wenger. Its clear to see Ramsey in central midfield screws up the team. I outlined why that is the case. He is only going to work in a central role if he plays ahead of Özil. Do you want Ramsey to shine? Then we need to change the dynamic of the team and players if its not to be at the detriment of the team.

Oscar against Swansea played a good game with lots of freedom and flash. He wasn't his usual disciplined self and Cesc suffered which meant Chelsea had less control over the proceedings. Moronho hooks Oscar instead of Cesc for Zouma and shut out the game to grab a point. See my point?
Control over a game rather than flashy moments is likely to give a team the upper hand over the outcome, usually.

It was a game to win where we needed control, first and Ramsey being the central midfielder was very much significant.

 

[Rex Stone]

I do have a question to those who watched a lot of his Wales peformances. How do you compare his performances/duties for Wales with those for Arsenal.? The reason I'm asking this is that it would make sense for Wales to give him more freedom to express himself (and make mistakes). At Wales he's one of the two players, who should make a difference. At Arsenal this is more of a shared responsibility , which also means more discipline.

Without him in the side, Bale wouldn't be doing half the heroics he has been. He covers the entirety of the midfield for us, from deep and going forward. His engine is insane. He had the two Belgian players in his pockets for the entire game.

People saying he has no discipline, I'm pretty sure Wenger isn't afraid to tell him to reign it in. Maybe he expects him to cover all the ground he does.

He was winning a lot of headers and challenges on Sunday and while we still had our shape in the first half, he started attacks from deep and drifted forward. People hate him for it but he has world class stamina levels and unlike other box to box midfielders, *cough Yaya cough* he actually has the discipline to get back.