William Saliba: When Willy Return?

[Riou]

Not putting a new big money defender in your Europa squad, over consistently awful Mustafi and an injured Mari, was terrible management....regardless if you think Saliba needs more time or not.

If we had prime Campbell-Toure in the defence now, you could understand the loan, but we don't...he should have played way more games for us at this point.

 

[A_G]

 

[Alexs]

Drinking prowess was legendary as well, man could sink pints faster than Henry could score goals. Not good with hindsight obviously, but must have been fun for a while

It was the driving part that was the problem.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

Guy killed it for Nice, now he's killing it for Marseille who are sitting in 2nd in Ligue 1, but there's somehow a notion he's not ready to start for this Arsenal until he's turned 25 or 26 because Merte said some CBs/players need time to develop? Bollocks. Guy's ready to play for Arsenal, Arteta just hates him for some reason.

Btw Mertesacker himself got his first Bundesliga game for Hannover aged 19 in the 2003/04 season, by the 2004/05 season - aged 20/21 - he was a starter and boss of their defence.

For Hannover. Similar level to Marseille (a bit lower considering Marseille is a better club in Ligue 1). Per was talking on that very podcast what an adaptation it was for him to the PL (at 27, wasn't it?), something we all saw, too. That was at 27 in an inferior PL and he should not have been more than a back-up option for us that first season, imagine Saliba at 20 without half the maturity or intelligence or resilience that Per has to learn from his mistakes and adapt. Your point actually goes precisely to what I'm saying. "Arteta just hates him for some reason" is pure speculation and frankly kind of silly reasoning--what's more likely, what I say (we all watched Saliba's early games for the U23s, those who did, it's impossible to come to any other conclusion than what Arteta did, that he wasn't ready for Arsenal)--or that a grown man just decided to hate Saliba for some reason. Anyways I've said all I need to say on this in my post below:

He already has 50+ games and by the end of the season that's gonna be 80+, so no way he joins us to be a backup for BW, and no way Arteta admits his mistake by benching BW which was so far his biggest transfer business. The only working solution for everyone would be to use BW as a DMC, but there is very little data on how BW would perform there at this level

Why not? Again, he's a 20 year old CB, I am not sure if you all are just desperate to cling on with all your might to this stick to beat Arteta with or if you are just living with totally unrealistic expectations wrt to the evolution of a CB. A competitive battle for starting spots between Gabriel, White, and Saliba next season makes perfect sense (or even a 1 year loan for Saliba with a PL club, if we could get him to extend). As I say below, I don't doubt that the template of City and their 3 top CBs is what he is looking at with Saliba. Anyways, as I also say below, going into the season without signing White and giving all the responsibility that comes with being our primary ball-playing CB who we need to make good decisions on the ball and improve our play from the back--which was the point of the White signing--to a 20 year old without any experience at the top level would've been a massive, and frankly irresponsible decision. We made the only responsible decision we could've on that front with the White signing, addressing an important need and allowing Saliba's progression and maturation to continue.

Too much hand-wringing and histrionics going on with Saliba atm, IMO, the reality is that he's still a 20 year old CB, he's still playing in a lesser league, and he's still got loads of evolution ahead of him, especially at the very top level. Look at de Ligt who everyone was talking about 2 years ago, when he had Saliba's age, as the generational talent. He's spent 2 years in Serie A evolving, and now surprise surprise, I see rumours about two of the truly well run football clubs (Chelsea and Madrid), prioritising him for next summer, when he'll be 23. Wrt to CB's evolution I can go down the list, this is just how it is is without exception, from van Dijk to Koulibaly, none of them were hitting their peak at a high level of football before age 23.

I completely believe Saliba will be reincorporated into the squad next summer as our 3rd CB behind Gabriel and White. That will give him a more stable platform to develop in the PL, with two CBs of some level to combine with, and hopefully in 2 or 3 years after we are talking about him like City are talking about Stones now (which, no doubt, Arteta, who is always looking at Guardiola as a template, is seeing City's situation with 3 top CBs and envisioning that--Stones another example of this rule of CBs developing later, btw).

For now, he's a 20 year old CB with massive projection, who is not the best CB in the world nor close to it no matter people's hyperbolic reactions to some Ligue 1 matches, and he's doing what he needs to be doing: playing every game at a decent level of football in a decent league. You could even argue that next season the best thing for his development would be a PL loan, though of course, I, like the rest of us, am anxious to see him in an Arsenal shirt.

There's literally no exception this rule. Varane is the closest but his first season as a starter was after 3 getting games for Madrid at the age of 21, and he came into a very different team in terms of stability and in terms of his role (playing next to one of the best and most experienced ball-playing CBs of this generation, with one of the best midfields of this generation in front of him, and in general with much, much less responsibility on the ball than we would've needed from Saliba next to Gabriel had we brought him in without signing White). Fofana is playing in a 3 for a team that plays on the counter and doesn't propose at all possession football as we do, and even then had some growing pains in the second half of last season; totally incomparable circumstances and different things being asked of him tactically and in terms of level of decision making needed.

 

[carlito'sway]

Sampa is definitely very appreciate of Saliba. He is playing well indeed and they have improved as a defensive unit.

 

[akhil]

For Hannover. Similar level to Marseille (a bit lower considering Marseille is a better club in Ligue 1). Per was talking on that very podcast what an adaptation it was for him to the PL (at 27, wasn't it?), something we all saw, too. That was at 27 in an inferior PL and he should not have been more than a back-up option for us that first season, imagine Saliba at 20 without half the maturity or intelligence or resilience that Per has to learn from his mistakes and adapt. Your point actually goes precisely to what I'm saying. "Arteta just hates him for some reason" is pure speculation and frankly kind of silly reasoning--what's more likely, what I say (we all watched Saliba's early games for the U23s, those who did, it's impossible to come to any other conclusion than what Arteta did, that he wasn't ready for Arsenal)--or that a grown man just decided to hate Saliba for some reason. Anyways I've said all I need to say on this in my post below:


Why not? Again, he's a 20 year old CB, I am not sure if you all are just desperate to cling on with all your might to this stick to beat Arteta with or if you are just living with totally unrealistic expectations wrt to the evolution of a CB. A competitive battle for starting spots between Gabriel, White, and Saliba next season makes perfect sense (or even a 1 year loan for Saliba with a PL club, if we could get him to extend). As I say below, I don't doubt that the template of City and their 3 top CBs is what he is looking at with Saliba. Anyways, as I also say below, going into the season without signing White and giving all the responsibility that comes with being our primary ball-playing CB who we need to make good decisions on the ball and improve our play from the back--which was the point of the White signing--to a 20 year old without any experience at the top level would've been a massive, and frankly irresponsible decision. We made the only responsible decision we could've on that front with the White signing, addressing an important need and allowing Saliba's progression and maturation to continue.



There's literally no exception this rule. Varane is the closest but his first season as a starter was after 3 getting games for Madrid at the age of 21, and he came into a very different team in terms of stability and in terms of his role (playing next to one of the best and most experienced ball-playing CBs of this generation, with one of the best midfields of this generation in front of him, and in general with much, much less responsibility on the ball than we would've needed from Saliba next to Gabriel had we brought him in without signing White). Fofana is playing in a 3 for a team that plays on the counter and doesn't propose at all possession football as we do, and even then had some growing pains in the second half of last season; totally incomparable circumstances and different things being asked of him tactically and in terms of level of decision making needed.

What a load of rubbish. Saying the same stuff over and over again doesn't make it any more true.

 

[Batman]

cant use the experience or league excuse.... huge money on White with one season in the top flight & big money on Gabriel based on performances in Ligue 1

Precisely. Gabriel was rated lower than Saliba when both were in France and White is a walking punchline to this point.

 

[Dutch D]

Sampa is definitely very appreciate of Saliba. He is playing well indeed and they have improved as a defensive unit.

Interesting coach to come here with his golden boy?

 

[Goonger]

He should defo come into contention next year regardless of the White signing if we want to continue to improve & get back near the best. Look at Liverpool, Van Dijk, Matip & Gomez already there, fair enough coming back from injuries, but they still go out & get 1 of the top young centre backs in the world in Konaté who so far has had limited game time.

There will be plenty room & games for White, Saliba & Gabriel, some tough games we might choose to play all 3. It should be Mari, Soares, Chambers & to a lesser extent Holding who are most worried about their positions in the squad.

 

[berric]

For Hannover. Similar level to Marseille (a bit lower considering Marseille is a better club in Ligue 1). Per was talking on that very podcast what an adaptation it was for him to the PL (at 27, wasn't it?), something we all saw, too. That was at 27 in an inferior PL and he should not have been more than a back-up option for us that first season, imagine Saliba at 20 without half the maturity or intelligence or resilience that Per has to learn from his mistakes and adapt. Your point actually goes precisely to what I'm saying. "Arteta just hates him for some reason" is pure speculation and frankly kind of silly reasoning--what's more likely, what I say (we all watched Saliba's early games for the U23s, those who did, it's impossible to come to any other conclusion than what Arteta did, that he wasn't ready for Arsenal)--or that a grown man just decided to hate Saliba for some reason. Anyways I've said all I need to say on this in my post below:


Why not? Again, he's a 20 year old CB, I am not sure if you all are just desperate to cling on with all your might to this stick to beat Arteta with or if you are just living with totally unrealistic expectations wrt to the evolution of a CB. A competitive battle for starting spots between Gabriel, White, and Saliba next season makes perfect sense (or even a 1 year loan for Saliba with a PL club, if we could get him to extend). As I say below, I don't doubt that the template of City and their 3 top CBs is what he is looking at with Saliba. Anyways, as I also say below, going into the season without signing White and giving all the responsibility that comes with being our primary ball-playing CB who we need to make good decisions on the ball and improve our play from the back--which was the point of the White signing--to a 20 year old without any experience at the top level would've been a massive, and frankly irresponsible decision. We made the only responsible decision we could've on that front with the White signing, addressing an important need and allowing Saliba's progression and maturation to continue.



There's literally no exception this rule. Varane is the closest but his first season as a starter was after 3 getting games for Madrid at the age of 21, and he came into a very different team in terms of stability and in terms of his role (playing next to one of the best and most experienced ball-playing CBs of this generation, with one of the best midfields of this generation in front of him, and in general with much, much less responsibility on the ball than we would've needed from Saliba next to Gabriel had we brought him in without signing White). Fofana is playing in a 3 for a team that plays on the counter and doesn't propose at all possession football as we do, and even then had some growing pains in the second half of last season; totally incomparable circumstances and different things being asked of him tactically and in terms of level of decision making needed.

Fofana agrees!

 

[Oxeki]

For Hannover. Similar level to Marseille (a bit lower considering Marseille is a better club in Ligue 1). Per was talking on that very podcast what an adaptation it was for him to the PL (at 27, wasn't it?), something we all saw, too. That was at 27 in an inferior PL and he should not have been more than a back-up option for us that first season, imagine Saliba at 20 without half the maturity or intelligence or resilience that Per has to learn from his mistakes and adapt. Your point actually goes precisely to what I'm saying. "Arteta just hates him for some reason" is pure speculation and frankly kind of silly reasoning--what's more likely, what I say (we all watched Saliba's early games for the U23s, those who did, it's impossible to come to any other conclusion than what Arteta did, that he wasn't ready for Arsenal)--or that a grown man just decided to hate Saliba for some reason. Anyways I've said all I need to say on this in my post below:


Why not? Again, he's a 20 year old CB, I am not sure if you all are just desperate to cling on with all your might to this stick to beat Arteta with or if you are just living with totally unrealistic expectations wrt to the evolution of a CB. A competitive battle for starting spots between Gabriel, White, and Saliba next season makes perfect sense (or even a 1 year loan for Saliba with a PL club, if we could get him to extend). As I say below, I don't doubt that the template of City and their 3 top CBs is what he is looking at with Saliba. Anyways, as I also say below, going into the season without signing White and giving all the responsibility that comes with being our primary ball-playing CB who we need to make good decisions on the ball and improve our play from the back--which was the point of the White signing--to a 20 year old without any experience at the top level would've been a massive, and frankly irresponsible decision. We made the only responsible decision we could've on that front with the White signing, addressing an important need and allowing Saliba's progression and maturation to continue.



There's literally no exception this rule. Varane is the closest but his first season as a starter was after 3 getting games for Madrid at the age of 21, and he came into a very different team in terms of stability and in terms of his role (playing next to one of the best and most experienced ball-playing CBs of this generation, with one of the best midfields of this generation in front of him, and in general with much, much less responsibility on the ball than we would've needed from Saliba next to Gabriel had we brought him in without signing White). Fofana is playing in a 3 for a team that plays on the counter and doesn't propose at all possession football as we do, and even then had some growing pains in the second half of last season; totally incomparable circumstances and different things being asked of him tactically and in terms of level of decision making needed.

You keep bleating that Leicester is better than us, yet the same Fofana who Saliba was more highly rated than came from the same team as Saliba and did well for them.

 

[pascal_stepanovs]

Not putting a new big money defender in your Europa squad, over consistently awful Mustafi and an injured Mari, was terrible management....regardless if you think Saliba needs more time or not.

If we had prime Campbell-Toure in the defence now, you could understand the loan, but we don't...he should have played way more games for us at this point.

It was worse than that. He played The Bozzer as a cb for a good chunk of those games.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

You keep bleating that Leicester is better than us, yet the same Fofana who Saliba was more highly rated than came from the same team as Saliba and did well for them.

When did I say Leicester is better than us? Again, it's a bit weird how you invent things that haven't been said to argue against...

Anyways, as I pointed out, what Fofana is doing and being asked to done tactically and the situation he is in at Leicester has nothing to do with what Saliba would've been asked to do tactically and the situation he would be in at Arsenal if we didn't sign White and we thrust all the responsibility of being the primary ball-playing CB at age 20 in a team that desperately needs to improve the quality of its play from the back and in possession and finish in the top 6 in the Premier League (in a 2 in a possession style, which has nothing to do with how Fofana is playing for Leicester in a 3 in a counter attacking style)...

 

[Oxeki]

When did I say Leicester is better than us? Again, it's a bit weird how you invent things that haven't been said to argue against...

Anyways, as I pointed out, what Fofana is doing and being asked to done tactically and the situation he is in at Leicester has nothing to do with what Saliba would've been asked to do tactically and the situation he would be in at Arsenal

You and @Blankety Blank actually said Arsenal has the 7th best squad behind Leicester and Sp**s. I didn't invent anything.

if we didn't sign White and we thrust all the responsibility of being the primary ball-playing CB at age 20 in a team that desperately needs to improve the quality of its play from the back and in possession and finish in the top 6 in the Premier League (in a 2 in a possession style, which has nothing to do with how Fofana is playing for Leicester in a 3 in a counter attacking style)...

From all indication, it seems White will use this season to find his feet and bed in. Wouldn't it have been better if we'd instead spent the 50m on a top cm and instead given that playing time to Saliba who arguably has more upside and has the better CB profile? Saliba is just as good on the ball and far more athletic than White. Hasn't Arteta intimated that he's going to play a high line this season? Wouldn't it haven't been better if he'd use Saliba since Saliba is the most suitable of all our CB for a highline?

 

[AbouCuéllar]

You and @Blankety Blank actually said Arsenal has the 7th best squad behind Leicester and Sp**s. I didn't invent anything.

No, you've mistaken me for another poster.

I've never said anything other than Arteta must get top 6 with this squad, and that personally my expectation is 5th.

From all indication, it seems White will use this season to find his feet and bed in.

I don't see all those indications at all. I don't agree at all, naturally, I think White is already making a difference for us and will continue to.

Wouldn't it have been better if we'd instead spent the 50m on a top cm and instead given that playing time to Saliba who arguably has more upside and has the better CB profile? Saliba is just as good on the ball and far more athletic than White. Hasn't Arteta intimated that he's going to play a high line this season? Wouldn't it haven't been better if he'd use Saliba since Saliba is the most suitable of all our CB for a highline?

In short, no. A massive part of being good on the ball is decision making, it's simply rather delusional to think that Saliba at age 20 is going to have the level of decision making on the ball that White at age 23 has, with no experience in the PL. Probably a realistic best case is seeing Gabriel's level of ability on the ball from Saliba in his first season at age 20, and we know that next to Gabriel we need a better CB on the ball to improve the quality of our play from the back. I've already responded to all of this in full, really. I think it would've been frankly irresponsible to go into this season (not just for the team, but probably for Saliba himself) with Saliba at age 20 given the responsibility of improving our play from the back as our main ball-playing CB, without a game of PL experience. The team and the manager has a responsibility to improve the quality of play and performances, and as I've discussed at length in the White thread and Arteta thread, what White offers us resisting pressure and bringing calm and continuity to our play from the back, is really a rather important part of that.

 

[Blankety Blank]

You and @Blankety Blank actually said Arsenal has the 7th best squad behind Leicester and Sp**s. I didn't invent anything.

Thanks for the mention
According to transfermarkt both the Sp**s & Leicester squads were more valuable than ours last season. I think if you ask their fans they most reckon their squads are better than ours.
Is it not fair to say that both Leicester & Sp**s have caught & overtaken us in the last 6 years?
We have not finished above Sp**s 5 years under 3 managers & Leicester have won the league and finished above us regularly.
Thats just the simple reality.


I think if you ask their fans most reckon their squads are better than ours & they should finish above us again.

I personally dont think there is a lot between us now.

Obviously Sp**s have Kane & Son which may give them the edge?

However perhaps their advantage is they both have proven premiership managers & more experienced settled teams.

That is just a fact.

I would be really shocked if people like you who seem to think our manager is a total clown would be able finish above them?

 

[Oxeki]

Thanks for the mention
According to transfermarkt both the Sp**s & Leicester squads were more valuable than ours last season. I think if you ask their fans they most reckon their squads are better than ours.
Is it not fair to say that both Leicester & Sp**s have caught & overtaken us in the last 6 years?
We have not finished above Sp**s 5 years under 3 managers & Leicester have won the league and finished above us regularly.
Thats just the simple reality.


I think if you ask their fans most reckon their squads are better than ours & they should finish above us again.

I personally dont think there is a lot between us now.

Obviously Sp**s have Kane & Son which may give them the edge?

However perhaps their advantage is they both have proven premiership managers & more experienced settled teams.

That is just a fact.

I would be really shocked if people like you who seem to think our manager is a total clown would be able finish above them?

At least you owned up to your ****.

So if by logic Leicester has a better team than Arsenal, so why is it that Saliba can't start for us but Wesley Fofana who Saliba was more highly rated than is a starter for Leicester? I'm not even crying to be a starter. Just make him part of the squad. If Mustafi, Mari and Cedric can start games for, surely Saliba can?

 

[Multipass]

With his performances time for a thread name change

William Saliba: Marseilling the backline

 

[drippin]

At least you owned up to your ****.

So if by logic Leicester has a better team than Arsenal, so why is it that Saliba can't start for us but Wesley Fofana who Saliba was more highly rated than is a starter for Leicester? I'm not even crying to be a starter. Just make him part of the squad. If Mustafi, Mari and Cedric can start games for, surely Saliba can?

I have said this before, but Saliba's most minutes in a top league is 1800 minutes from last season. That's 20x 90 minute league games + 152 minutes in the cup. EPL has 38 games, is much tougher than Ligue 1, and has two cups. Saliba also has been injury-prone.

Depending to start Saliba for a full season would invite Holding having to start many games when Saliba gets tired later in the season (like happens to many youngsters or even just newcomers to EPL) or injured or just can't adjust fast enough.

White has huge amount of experience and minutes from England for his age already, and isn't injury-prone. And any person with logic can see that we could expect better performance from White currently, although he hasn't been good yet.

So I'm very happy to see Saliba getting minutes and performing well in France. I just really hope he wants to continue here, but in any case, his value will be more after this season, when he gets to start much more than earlier.

The situation is a bit similar to Elneny, with Holding. I don't want them to have many minutes at all. So White was needed anyway, and then Saliba would have risked not starting enough as the 3rd CB.

I really like the look of White, Gabriel, Saliba + Tomiyasu as our CB's for years to come, basically only needing a starting RB next summer to complete the backline & depth.

It lacks age, but many of the defenders are quite mature for their age imo.

 

[UpTheGunnerz]

Hearing Artetas reaction when asked about Salibas success in france

"I dont speak french"