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With £30mil in the bank, who could replace Vieira?
- Thread starter Alexone234
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It's a flaw in Arsenal's style that when the wingers and forwards get marked out of the game, we have no-one in central midfield who could step up and win a match for us. Paddy won't, Silva definitely won't, and Edu's too inconsistent, however talented.
It's why i'm so excited about Cesc, and why if Paddy did leave i'd be more than delighted if Maniche or Ballack replaced him. They're players who can do that.
It's why i'm so excited about Cesc, and why if Paddy did leave i'd be more than delighted if Maniche or Ballack replaced him. They're players who can do that.
Adam
Established Member
Patrick doesn't have great goal scoring characteristic, and neither does Keane - but this doesn't take away their ability to win the match deeper in midfield. Vieira is less box to box it may seem - i think as you get older, you get more efficient in your movement, and more selective. What Arsène likes is Reyes - unpredictable, chases every avenue. Young players show this more.
Vieira, though, has become the mature CM. Reflected in his mentality and style on the pitch. It is up to the individual to assess whether his calmness has taken something away from his game, or added to it. All i know is that in 00/01 - i had never seen a CM dominate so much with athleticism and commitment.
We have to assess what we mean by a cm being a 'match winner' - is it by goalscoring from midfield, or is it by solidarity in defence - or is one the result of the other?
Look at the big games against Chelsea - Vieira was immense in my eyes. He was a match winner.
The games in which he dissapointed were against United, and in some away matches - like Everton away and Bolton away when Campo gave him a mare.
It's difficult to judge with such a limiting word like 'matchwinner'. It's subjective.
I believe Vieira will be winning matches with Arsenal this season. So, for me, they are all match winners. :wink:
Vieira, though, has become the mature CM. Reflected in his mentality and style on the pitch. It is up to the individual to assess whether his calmness has taken something away from his game, or added to it. All i know is that in 00/01 - i had never seen a CM dominate so much with athleticism and commitment.
We have to assess what we mean by a cm being a 'match winner' - is it by goalscoring from midfield, or is it by solidarity in defence - or is one the result of the other?
Look at the big games against Chelsea - Vieira was immense in my eyes. He was a match winner.
The games in which he dissapointed were against United, and in some away matches - like Everton away and Bolton away when Campo gave him a mare.
It's difficult to judge with such a limiting word like 'matchwinner'. It's subjective.
I believe Vieira will be winning matches with Arsenal this season. So, for me, they are all match winners. :wink:
kutz
Member
I agree Adam.
I think (in my opinion, no personal attack intended) that those who claim a person can save matches but not win them is completely shortsighted. Did Arsenal win the games Paddy saved? Yes. Did his performance win the match then? Yes. Ludicrous to say he saved the match, but didn't win it.
The problem with bringing in a Ballack is that in Bayern and Germany the entire play centers around him. He's been worshipped for the last few years even by his teammates, how do you think he'd fit in with the Arsenal selfless style of mentality? Possibly ok, but the team's attack is based around the wingers and strikers floating into the positions that Ballack likes so much. May not work, methinks.
I think (in my opinion, no personal attack intended) that those who claim a person can save matches but not win them is completely shortsighted. Did Arsenal win the games Paddy saved? Yes. Did his performance win the match then? Yes. Ludicrous to say he saved the match, but didn't win it.
The problem with bringing in a Ballack is that in Bayern and Germany the entire play centers around him. He's been worshipped for the last few years even by his teammates, how do you think he'd fit in with the Arsenal selfless style of mentality? Possibly ok, but the team's attack is based around the wingers and strikers floating into the positions that Ballack likes so much. May not work, methinks.
A
Anonymous
Guest
lewdikris said:
Probably one of the stupidest things I have ever read. What on earth gives you that impression?
KingReyes
Established Member
lewdikris said:
I don't agree with this at all, the mentality is to go out there and win games not salvage them. Of course Vieira is going to look better on the defensive side, he's a defensive midfielder, not an attacking one like Ballack. And what do you mean Paddy has failed to step up in winning us tough games? Regardless of the results Paddy has consistently stepped up for the big games. Chelsea in the Champions league BOTH legs, I was at the Stamford Bridge game and was in awe of his performance. Also against Chelsea in the F.A Cup. 1-0 down at Half time, Vieira dominated the midfield second half and provided the winning goal. Also in the league against Chelsea, gave them the first goal but stepped up got us the equaliser and once again dominated Makelele and Lampard in the midfield So I don't think you're right when saying Vieira doesn't step up in the big games just because he doesn't score as many goals as Ballack or just because he doesn't provide final balls.
I wonder why Real Madrid want him then?? If he can't provide final balls or he can't win games. They want him because he does his job as a Defensive midfielder and he's the world's best at it. Thats why.
er lewdikris Keane saved united's bacon on many occasions. Yes he did inspire them to victories too but not at the same rate that Cantona (my all time favourite united player) did.
United used to swamp the oppositons goal when they were desperate to score so it was always a lottery who scored, whereas under wenger we play a collective offensive game that relies on pace and measured passes so the forward players tended to score more than the defensive midfielders.
IMO Vieira protected the defence to a far greater degree than keane ever did, whereas keane was able to fire up his teammates to raise their game.
United used to swamp the oppositons goal when they were desperate to score so it was always a lottery who scored, whereas under wenger we play a collective offensive game that relies on pace and measured passes so the forward players tended to score more than the defensive midfielders.
IMO Vieira protected the defence to a far greater degree than keane ever did, whereas keane was able to fire up his teammates to raise their game.
lee1001
Established Member
IMO the best partnership in the world would be both Vieira and Ballack in central midfield. I just think Gilberto offers little going forward, i know he is a defensive midfielder but he really is poor going forward. Ballack although lacking all of Gilberto defensive abilities, he can tackle, is very strong and very intelligent he is a winner and is influential too. His technique is world class. I think he has everything a modern footballer should have.
Ballack rarely gives the ball away, unlike Gilberto, he has a very natural ability, you can see it in every pass and shot.
Ballack rarely gives the ball away, unlike Gilberto, he has a very natural ability, you can see it in every pass and shot.
It's a pretty simple distinction. If I wanted a midfielder to make a tackle that will stop you from being in a goal-conceding situation, you'd choose Paddy. If you wanted a midfielder who'd get you a vital goal and help you win a match, I'd choose Ballack.
If we had both, there'd be no argument.
But if it's on an either/or basis - which financially it probably is - I'd go for the guy who'd score a goal, rather than one who'd stop one to be my star man in the middle.
And for that simple reason, I prefer Ballack to Paddy as a player.
But they're both brilliant.
If we had both, there'd be no argument.
But if it's on an either/or basis - which financially it probably is - I'd go for the guy who'd score a goal, rather than one who'd stop one to be my star man in the middle.
And for that simple reason, I prefer Ballack to Paddy as a player.
But they're both brilliant.
Adam
Established Member
Arsenal rely on the winger/strikers to get the goals from midfield, so Patrick is the better option for Arsenal.
On the international stage however, and perhaps in Europe - Ballack has more of an effect because of his obvious goalscoring abilities. International football is less organised and disciplined than club football, so players score more from CM, and Ballack is more of a threat.
Although, Vieira did do very well goalscoring wise in the Confederations Cup in 02 with an ACM in Pires next to him.
Ballack did only get 7 goals last season, while even Patrick got 3 in less appearances in the league.
On the international stage however, and perhaps in Europe - Ballack has more of an effect because of his obvious goalscoring abilities. International football is less organised and disciplined than club football, so players score more from CM, and Ballack is more of a threat.
Although, Vieira did do very well goalscoring wise in the Confederations Cup in 02 with an ACM in Pires next to him.
Ballack did only get 7 goals last season, while even Patrick got 3 in less appearances in the league.
eh?? ballack oh come man he's overrated. Ok he's germany's best player but that isn't really saying much.
Since his season with Leverkusen what else has he actually achieved.
Give me Seedoff any day.
If you're using the goals argument to pick a midfielder then i suppose you chose Lampard over vieira, he scores more goals than paddy.
(corrected the exceedly poor grammar
ops: )
Since his season with Leverkusen what else has he actually achieved.
Give me Seedoff any day.
If you're using the goals argument to pick a midfielder then i suppose you chose Lampard over vieira, he scores more goals than paddy.
(corrected the exceedly poor grammar
ops: )Well, it's just a personal preference.
It's nothing to do with ability to score goals - it's all about ability to score goals when it ****ing matters. Lampard's getting there fast, but not yet.
Give me a Matthaus, a Brady, a Bryan Robson, a David Platt anyday.
It ain't a criticism of Paddy. I just think that the lack of top central midfielders who can win the ball, but whose major asset is keeping hold of it, making and scoring goals, is a major, major flaw in the contemporary game.
Ballack, and latterly Maniche, and maybe Rosicky in a year or two, are the only real players in world football who play like the kind of midfielders I like watching most.
It's nothing to do with ability to score goals - it's all about ability to score goals when it ****ing matters. Lampard's getting there fast, but not yet.
Give me a Matthaus, a Brady, a Bryan Robson, a David Platt anyday.
It ain't a criticism of Paddy. I just think that the lack of top central midfielders who can win the ball, but whose major asset is keeping hold of it, making and scoring goals, is a major, major flaw in the contemporary game.
Ballack, and latterly Maniche, and maybe Rosicky in a year or two, are the only real players in world football who play like the kind of midfielders I like watching most.
thegame24
Established Member
Sorry Vieira hands down best CM
GoonerGurjit
Established Member
Vieira and Ballack would be an absolutely awesome combination. Should Vieira go then the only realistic well known targets are Maniche, Xabi Alonso, Costinha and probably van Bommel.
KingReyes
Established Member
Speaking of replacements howabout this guy from Seville I keep hearing about. Baptista?? I've heard he was a hit last season in La Liga and is still very young. Does anybody know more about him? BoobyPires and other members who watch La Liga might like to comment.
Is he a Vieira type player, more of a DM? or a Ballack type player who's more offensive minded. From what I've read he can score a few goals. He's Brazilian so I think a wrok permit would be a problem if he ever had to come.
Is he a Vieira type player, more of a DM? or a Ballack type player who's more offensive minded. From what I've read he can score a few goals. He's Brazilian so I think a wrok permit would be a problem if he ever had to come.
Sammer
Established Member
GoonerGurjit said:
Couldn´t agree with you more. Viera and Ballack...we would be unstoppable.
But you have to consider our squad - and our squad needs a PV4 more than a Ballack, since most of our other midfielders are focussed on attacking.
Still:
Pires - Ballack - Viera - Ljungberg
is something to dream about...
kel varnsen
Established Member
KingReyes said:
baptista used to be a midfielder; now he plays up front and scores a ton of goals! fast, skilled, strong and can score goals. think he scored about 20 goals last seasong; pretty impressive...
calvinngai88
Well-Known Member
Ballack and Vieira in central midfield. Hmm, you might never know. But if no one from the midfield leaves, it's quite hard to imagine Ballack coming to Arsenal, because Edu, Gilberto, Flamini, Cesc would be dropped down in the pecking order.
Kenyonhater
Well-Known Member
kel varnsen said:GoonerGurjit said:
The perfect replacement is Michael Ballack. The best midfielder in the world; he score goals, he's strong, great technique. Ballack and Morientes in, Vieira out. I'm droooooling....
He really put Diaby in the shade on Sunday, didn't he!!
By the way, Kel, don't get so emotional.
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