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Would you exchange money for Cesc?

Shredder

Well-Known Member
Biggus said:
So no one feels the whole building a team around Cesc thing may be a mistake? especially when Wenger refuses to buy a decent DM to cover him.
The thing is, we don't seem to be building at all right now, are we?
 

Biggus

Established Member
What I'm getting at is that Fabregas was a real find for Wenger, one of these rare players who you can just see the class oozing out of.
So Wenger decided to build the "next team" around him after Vieira left. Now obviously Vieira and Fabregas are two different type players, Vieira, huge strong box to box marauder- perfect for the PL, and Fabregas the midfield Generalissimo, need different styles of play and players around them.

Now as has been shown over the last 2-3 years this European possession style is woefully inadequate to deal with the physical demands and the pace of the premiership, and added to this Fabregas himself seems to have had a gut full of Wenger's selling of our experienced players and and dim prospect on the trophy front. He's had a taste of glory with Spain and he likes it!

Perhaps it's all immaterial as he will probably go himself when Wenger does, which hopefully won't be too much longer.
 

giuliob

Well-Known Member
Although AW is ultimately responsible for the midfield situation, Cesc can show some spirit....I'm so tired of listening to the Cesc's apologists and all the excuses...He still has to go out and play for 90 minutes...So show some heart, some moxie for chrissakes.....
 

TomasCR

Established Member
Shredder said:
Biggus said:
So no one feels the whole building a team around Cesc thing may be a mistake? especially when Wenger refuses to buy a decent DM to cover him.
The thing is, we don't seem to be building at all right now, are we?
Exactly, we are not builing anything at the moment. If we were, Cesc would have already got players he needs but that´s a different story. We are building anything around Cesc, end of story.
 

True Gooner

Established Member
Biggus said:
What I'm getting at is that Fabregas was a real find for Wenger, one of these rare players who you can just see the class oozing out of.
So Wenger decided to build the "next team" around him after Vieira left. Now obviously Vieira and Fabregas are two different type players, Vieira, huge strong box to box marauder- perfect for the PL, and Fabregas the midfield Generalissimo, need different styles of play and players around them.

True, but I dont really think building a team around Fabregas was a mistake. I do, however, think that what we have built around Fabregas is woefully inadequate and not providing him with the right foil he needs. If your building a team around one player you need to give him what he needs, especially if hes the fulcrum of your team. [NB - I'm not defending his current form]

Simply put, our team looks like a badly done paint job, done in a hurry. What it really needs is another layer of paint to bring about some consistency and uniformity.

Now as has been shown over the last 2-3 years this European possession style is woefully inadequate to deal with the physical demands and the pace of the premiership, and added to this Fabregas himself seems to have had a gut full of Wenger's selling of our experienced players and and dim prospect on the trophy front. He's had a taste of glory with Spain and he likes it!

I dont think that the style of play we adopted last season was flawed. I think any style of football can be a success, provided that its reasonably balanced and you have the best players executing your orders.

I think the Liverpool example is a good one - under Rafa, Liverpool were the footballing opposite of Arsenal. Dull, long ball football with a lot of focus on defence. They didnt win many trophies either. However, over the last two years they've added a lot of quality into their side, they can now play some pretty slick football (look at Kyuts goal today) but at the same time keep it tight at the back. The likes of Torres, Gerrard and Alonso provide the craft while Keane, Kyut and Mascherano provide the presence.

I dont think the foootball we played was different to what Liverpool are doing. Fair enough, Liverpool have a better defence - but we made up for it in other areas.
 

oasis_gooner

Active Member
True Gooner said:
Biggus said:
What I'm getting at is that Fabregas was a real find for Wenger, one of these rare players who you can just see the class oozing out of.
So Wenger decided to build the "next team" around him after Vieira left. Now obviously Vieira and Fabregas are two different type players, Vieira, huge strong box to box marauder- perfect for the PL, and Fabregas the midfield Generalissimo, need different styles of play and players around them.

True, but I dont really think building a team around Fabregas was a mistake. I do, however, think that what we have built around Fabregas is woefully inadequate and not providing him with the right foil he needs. If your building a team around one player you need to give him what he needs, especially if hes the fulcrum of your team. [NB - I'm not defending his current form]

Simply put, our team looks like a badly done paint job, done in a hurry. What it really needs is another layer of paint to bring about some consistency and uniformity.

Now as has been shown over the last 2-3 years this European possession style is woefully inadequate to deal with the physical demands and the pace of the premiership, and added to this Fabregas himself seems to have had a gut full of Wenger's selling of our experienced players and and dim prospect on the trophy front. He's had a taste of glory with Spain and he likes it!

I dont think that the style of play we adopted last season was flawed. I think any style of football can be a success, provided that its reasonably balanced and you have the best players executing your orders.

I think the Liverpool example is a good one - under Rafa, Liverpool were the footballing opposite of Arsenal. Dull, long ball football with a lot of focus on defence. They didnt win many trophies either. However, over the last two years they've added a lot of quality into their side, they can now play some pretty slick football (look at Kyuts goal today) but at the same time keep it tight at the back. The likes of Torres, Gerrard and Alonso provide the craft while Keane, Kyut and Mascherano provide the presence.

I dont think the foootball we played was different to what Liverpool are doing. Fair enough, Liverpool have a better defence - but we made up for it in other areas.

While the Liverpool example you give is a good one, you're overlooking the fact that their main/core players have been playing together for 3-4 years now each of which is an established international. They have hardly changed from last year and just about added/removed fringe players whom they thought would improve/regress them. In our case, we lose two established first teamers in Hleb and Flamini, replace them with a 21 year old who is completely new to England and a 20 year old whose experience in England was limited to a handful of Carling Cup matches.
 

TomasCR

Established Member
Oasis_gooner is right, it has more to do with changing one or more than one player. While Rafa has never let more than 2 key players go and has his squad together already a while, we have changed almost all our middle, two of the most important players from last season are gone and the last one is, well - you know. It will take some time to get settled in. Time, the only thing we don´t have.
 

thegame24

Established Member
How ironic that the player we almost got from liverpool is the player that is one of the main reasons they are top. Yet we linger in ****eness.....again.
 

Shredder

Well-Known Member
Biggus said:
Now as has been shown over the last 2-3 years this European possession style is woefully inadequate to deal with the physical demands and the pace of the premiership, and added to this Fabregas himself seems to have had a gut full of Wenger's selling of our experienced players and and dim prospect on the trophy front. He's had a taste of glory with Spain and he likes it!
In my opinion, the system proved last season that it could work, even in the Premier League. Unfortunately -- and as usual -- the squad was too thin and we paid for it down the stretch yet again. Had we kept Flamini and Hleb while adding Nasri and a defender on top of what was already here, we'd have been in with a shout this season.

Now, not so much.
 

Biggus

Established Member
True Gooner said:
I dont think that the style of play we adopted last season was flawed. I think any style of football can be a success, provided that its reasonably balanced and you have the best players executing your orders.

Yes, it can be a success as every style has a place in the wide range of climates that football is played. But as we know the pace and the pressing physicality of the English game simply won't allow the time for passing moves to develop, and the type of players best employed- light supple highly technical are too easily out muscled off the ball, Sure there is room for 1 or 2 very technical players but not to base your whole style on.

Only in warmer climates does passing based possession football come into its own.....Heh heh now all Wenger has to do is hang on 5 years or so till the players grow up and global warming really starts to kick in and we'll be right. :wink:

Oh and BTW Liverpool won plenty under Houllier.
 

Biggus

Established Member
Shredder said:
Unfortunately

Unfortunately Shredder the lead till 75 minutes didn't win us the CL in 2006, and our points tally wasn't enough in the premiership last season. These are facts, its not 2006 nor soon won't be 2008, time keeps moving teams keep changing but the present system keeps failing.
 

True Gooner

Established Member
Biggus said:
Yes, it can be a success as every style has a place in the wide range of climates that football is played. But as we know the pace and the pressing physicality of the English game simply won't allow the time for passing moves to develop, and the type of players best employed- light supple highly technical are too easily out muscled off the ball, Sure there is room for 1 or 2 very technical players but not to base your whole style on.

Only in warmer climates does passing based possession football come into its own.....Heh heh now all Wenger has to do is hang on 5 years or so till the players grow up and global warming really starts to kick in and we'll be right. :wink:

Yeah, well I'm not advocating for passing based possession football taken to the highest level. Not the kind Barcelona play. We should aim for the kind of one-touch build from the middle, release into space as soon as you see the chance moves that United play.

I know that the Premier league is physical and high tempo, but off late a lot of the teams are far more disciplined (except ours; surprised surprise!) So patient build up is unavoidable if you are a top quality side.

Quickness of thought can counter balance the pressure and pace that your opponents play.

But - I admit, its not enough.

We do have off days, at that time we dont have the sooper, dooper quality players to rescue the game, like Henry, Ronaldo, Stevie G. This team is far too dependent on all the cogs of the machine to click together. Even Barcelona can call up individual quality to change games.

Also, our defence should be able to hold its own as much as possible. Enough said.

Players like Fabregas should be allowed to do what their good at. Rather than mix and match him up with Denilson.

But...I'm veering off course here.

I dont think the style is a problem. And by style I'm not defend the kind of **** we've been serving this season. Think about the football we played last season or what our kids play. Faster, more penetrative, imaginative and ultimately (as a result of the previous three) more possession. Not meaningless, sideways passing - trying to walk the ball in or pointless crosses in the box. The kind that makes me want to poke my finger in my eye and push it so far back until...err...yeah, I dont like it much. :x
 

Shredder

Well-Known Member
Biggus said:
Unfortunately Shredder the lead till 75 minutes didn't win us the CL in 2006, and our points tally wasn't enough in the premiership last season. These are facts, its not 2006 nor soon won't be 2008, time keeps moving teams keep changing but the present system keeps failing.
Are you implying that the system lost us the CL final? I'd say that a combination of the system and a healthy bit of cynical, defensive football was what got us to the final at all. The previous system couldn't even get us into the semis.

Do you really think that finishing four points off the top last season with the squad we had didn't indicate that it could be successful with better players? Nevermind that changing the system again could very possibly set off another five-year rebuilding period.
 

Biggus

Established Member
Shredder said:
Are you implying that the system lost us the CL final? I'd say that a combination of the system and a healthy bit of cynical, defensive football was what got us to the final at all. The previous system couldn't even get us into the semis.

No no no Shred, we indeed played with a different system and team and it nearly but didn't bring us glory, so there's no point talking about it now.

Shredder said:
Do you really think that finishing four points off the top last season with the squad we had didn't indicate that it could be successful with better players? Nevermind that changing the system again could very possibly set off another five-year rebuilding period.

But we don't even have the side that failed last season.....we're so far off track now a few tweeks will make little difference. :(
 

Biggus

Established Member
Yes yes keep walking in a Wenger wonderland...it's always someone else's fault. :roll:
 

Shredder

Well-Known Member
Biggus said:
But we don't even have the side that failed last season.....we're so far off track now a few tweeks will make little difference. :(
Sure, but that's not the system failing. That's just Wenger failing with transfers for reasons only he seems to know.

Biggus said:
Yes yes keep walking in a Wenger wonderland...it's always someone else's fault. :roll:
You're not separating the system with the transfer policy. To me, those are two separate things. First you create and decide on a system -- a strategy. Next, you figure out what's needed to implement that strategy. Finally, you go get what you need and execute. Those last two steps would essentially represent the transfer policy (and activity) and that's where Wenger has failed so miserably lately. I believe the strategy could work, but certainly not when the likes of Denilson, Bendtner and Silvestre are getting starts. The fact that they are starting is certainly Wenger's fault, unless Arsenal somehow really doesn't have any money to invest, which I would find absurd.
 

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