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Yaya Sanogo joins Arsenal

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truth_hurts

but Holding’s hair transplant was painless
jones said:
jerome2158 said:
of the 25 players on the French U20 team, I believe only 2 were born outside France. And if my memory is correct, I think those 2 have lived in France since a very young age. Actually most of the players are from the Paris region.

French-born citizens can be black too you know.

Agreed in general, but I suspect at least some of those kids don't feel very French at all. Playing for a national football team is more a career choice than anything these days, especially when your other option is an African crisis-ridden third world country.

Out of the French speaking African nations Congo and Mali fit your description but most of the rest do not. Is being born in a country not enough to make yo A. A citizen and 2. a <insert countries name> national. Or do you believe mainland Europe should only be populated by Caucasians?

Sanogo is French. Glad that he is scoring goals and glad that between him, Gnabry, Miyaichi and Campbell we will probably produce at least 1 forward who is good enough for us.
 

DJ_Markstar

Based and Artetapilled

Player:Martinelli
Godwin1 said:
France have to many foreign nationals in their team, I don't like that I think that a player should represent his country of birth. I bet some of the African nations are a bit frigged off with this as well.

I'm of the opinion that the country that raised you should have first refusal. It's a kick in the balls for France if they have developed his talent and he then turns around and sticks his fingers up at the country he was raised in and by. That said, I don't know the ins and outs with Sanogo specifically.
 

DJ_Markstar

Based and Artetapilled

Player:Martinelli
jones said:
jerome2158 said:
of the 25 players on the French U20 team, I believe only 2 were born outside France. And if my memory is correct, I think those 2 have lived in France since a very young age. Actually most of the players are from the Paris region.

French-born citizens can be black too you know.

Agreed in general, but I suspect at least some of those kids don't feel very French at all. Playing for a national football team is more a career choice than anything these days, especially when your other option is an African crisis-ridden third world country.

As someone raised in England, I completely understand the sentiment of not wanting to be French :lol:

That said, it is ungrateful as ****. Don't like France? Don't live there.
 

jones

Captain Serious
Trusted ⭐
truth_hurts said:
jones said:
jerome2158 said:
of the 25 players on the French U20 team, I believe only 2 were born outside France. And if my memory is correct, I think those 2 have lived in France since a very young age. Actually most of the players are from the Paris region.

French-born citizens can be black too you know.

Agreed in general, but I suspect at least some of those kids don't feel very French at all. Playing for a national football team is more a career choice than anything these days, especially when your other option is an African crisis-ridden third world country.

Out of the French speaking African nations Congo and Mali fit your description but most of the rest do not. Is being born in a country not enough to make yo A. A citizen and 2. a <insert countries name> national. Or do you believe mainland Europe should only be populated by Caucasians?

Sanogo is French. Glad that he is scoring goals and glad that between him, Gnabry, Miyaichi and Campbell we will probably produce at least 1 forward who is good enough for us.

There are a lot more Francophone countries in Africa than just Mali and Congo that are still feeling heavy after effects from war, colonialism, hunger crises and the likes.

Being born in a country is of course enough to make you that country's citizen and national if you feel like it. My point (as an African born in Europe) is that there is a significant number of people who simply don't feel that they are French/German/English/whatever, which is especially often the case in France. Not that they "can't" belong to that nationality, more that they don't want to.
 

Jury

A-M's drunk uncle
I like the fact that he's young, tall, quick, has good feet and loves to score. Plenty of scope there, and the type of player we should always be looking make something of. If it fails, then at least we went down the correct road.
 

Bigbludfire

Established Member
DJ_Markstar said:
Godwin1 said:
France have to many foreign nationals in their team, I don't like that I think that a player should represent his country of birth. I bet some of the African nations are a bit frigged off with this as well.

I'm of the opinion that the country that raised you should have first refusal. It's a kick in the balls for France if they have developed his talent and he then turns around and sticks his fingers up at the country he was raised in and by. That said, I don't know the ins and outs with Sanogo specifically.

I agree, I feel this way with some of our youth players also that choose to represent different countries that qualify them as "foreign". I myself don't consider myself English despite being born in North London, but as far as Britishness is concerned in English football it's a big issue.
 

SomGooner

Prolific Liker
The greatest french footballer ever described himself as 'a Kabyle (His parents' hometown in Algeria) from La Castellane, then an Algerian from Marseille, and then a Frenchman.'

'Zidane Generation' as they're called in France have the same mentality as most kids growing up in council estates up and down the country who identify themselves with their estates first rather than the country and it has nothing to do with colour or creed...just following the unwritten rule/code of the streets.

Back to the topic...the player that Sanogo most reminds me of is Ibrahimovic rather than Adebayor because Ade at 19 was a donkey (literally) but Ibra had the same raw talent when he first came to the scene even though you could argue that at 19 Ibra lacked the killer instinct and the sense of position that Sanogo seems to have and that's the greatest compliment I can pay to him because of the greatness of the current 31 year-old Zlatan.

Good luck Yaya...work hard, stay humble and Arsène will help you fulfill your immense promise.
 

Hunta

Established Member
Trusted ⭐

Country: England
SomGooner said:
The greatest french footballer ever described himself as 'a Kabyle (His parents' hometown in Algeria) from La Castellane, then an Algerian from Marseille, and then a Frenchman.'

'Zidane Generation' as they're called in France have the same mentality as most kids growing up in council estates up and down the country who identify themselves with their estates first rather than the country and it has nothing to do with colour or creed...just following the unwritten rule/code of the streets.

Back to the topic...the player that Sanogo most reminds me of is Ibrahimovic rather than Adebayor because Ade at 19 was a donkey (literally) but Ibra had the same raw talent when he first came to the scene even though you could argue that at 19 Ibra lacked the killer instinct and the sense of position that Sanogo seems to have and that's the greatest compliment I can pay to him because of the greatness of the current 31 year-old Zlatan.

Good luck Yaya...work hard, stay humble and Arsène will help you fulfill your immense promise.
Nope.
 

jones

Captain Serious
Trusted ⭐
DJ_Markstar said:
That said, it is ungrateful as ****. Don't like France? Don't live there.

You seriously think it's that easy? Go ahead and tell some kid raised in a banlieue living off of the **** that's thrown their way to be grateful to a nation that colonialised the countries of their origin, bombed them back into the middle ages and afterwards never gave a **** about any of them.
 

yuvken

Established Member
But they still live there? So we're supposed to endorse eternal rage and an uncompromising sense of revenge? the truth is we all have a history, no one can control it. Some happier, some less fortunate. But we all live in the present, and in a certain environment. It's (to a large extent, and in most cases) up to us if we choose to be positive about it, or not.
I see your point, but I don't see why Mark's point angers you: you live in France? Take it from there. Roots and heritage are nice, but no need to make yourself a social cancer.
 

SomGooner

Prolific Liker
THunter said:
SomGooner said:
The greatest french footballer ever described himself as 'a Kabyle (His parents' hometown in Algeria) from La Castellane, then an Algerian from Marseille, and then a Frenchman.'

'Zidane Generation' as they're called in France have the same mentality as most kids growing up in council estates up and down the country who identify themselves with their estates first rather than the country and it has nothing to do with colour or creed...just following the unwritten rule/code of the streets.

Back to the topic...the player that Sanogo most reminds me of is Ibrahimovic rather than Adebayor because Ade at 19 was a donkey (literally) but Ibra had the same raw talent when he first came to the scene even though you could argue that at 19 Ibra lacked the killer instinct and the sense of position that Sanogo seems to have and that's the greatest compliment I can pay to him because of the greatness of the current 31 year-old Zlatan.

Good luck Yaya...work hard, stay humble and Arsène will help you fulfill your immense promise.
Nope.

There are no horses found in Togo but plenty of donkeys. :mrgreen:

FJPCS.gif
 

jones

Captain Serious
Trusted ⭐
yuvken said:
But they still live there? So we're supposed to endorse eternal rage and an uncompromising sense of revenge? the truth is we all have a history, no one can control it. Some happier, some less fortunate. But we all live in the present, and in a certain environment. It's (to a large extent, and in most cases) up to us if we choose to be positive about it, or not.
I see your point, but I don't see why Mark's point angers you: you live in France? Take it from there. Roots and heritage are nice, but no need to make yourself a social cancer.

I don't live in France, I'm not angered by his "point" either. I just happen to completely disagree with his point of view on this topic, as I do with yours. The kind of thinking that allows you to say "'we' are supposed to endorse rage" is the biggest part of the problem; it's either with or against us, there's no in between. You're making a number of assumptions without noticing it, nobody said that you have to "feel" Algerian/Congolese/etc if you don't feel French, you can easily do without either.
And more importantly, why do you have to be a social cancer if you don't feel French while living in France? That's utterly ridiculous; there are dozens of French people with French origin in France who don't give a **** about la grande nation, do you assume that those guys are all jobless sociopaths as well?
The idea that since they're still living there they'd have to feel French is even a bigger joke though. Basically saying "regardless of your inability to affect the decision of your parents, you're trapped now. Either pledge your allegiance or **** off". Right, even if you are in university, are in a job, have a family and what not, burn your bridges and try your luck elsewhere if you don't feel that you owe somebody somewhere something. That's some 19th century **** there.
 

yuvken

Established Member
jones said:
You're making a number of assumptions without noticing it
Or maybe you are?
nobody said that you have to "feel" Algerian/Congolese/etc if you don't feel French, you can easily do without either.
I certainly did not commit to this point.
more importantly, why do you have to be a social cancer if you don't feel French while living in France? That's utterly ridiculous; there are dozens of French people with French origin in France who don't give a **** about la grande nation, do you assume that those guys are all jobless sociopaths as well?
The hell did you come to that? not from what I said: as far as I'm concerned, you can live where you want, affiliate with who/what you want, represent whoever you want. I'm a french national myself, and couldn't give a flying F*** about "mother France", as you call it.
Either pledge your allegiance or **** off". ...That's some 19th century **** there.
That is indeed 19th century thinking, (or worse) but you need much imagination to stick that to what I said (and still say): you can take a positive route in life, even if you haven't chosen every aspect of it (and like you mentioned yourself - we don't choose our circumstances, we pretty much choose nothing). We do have a say in this life, and I don't see why not try to use it positively. All the talk about social cancer refers to those who sanctify the negative route, and are busy blaming all the world while they're at it. Certainly has nothing to do with feeling french or anything at all - I don't easily sympathize with national sentiments anyway.
The fascistic "pledge allegiance" declarations are as far from my views as anything (in all those instances you mentioned, and many more). But the false dichotomy you attribute to my view ("with us or against us") points back to what your stance seemingly is (I'm not sure it really is, just your strong defense of some elements hints in that direction): you do not have to be with us, nor against us. You could (for one) live in France, have many problems with it's past, including parts of it which affected your own history, yet be in peace with it on the whole. You are living there, is a good start: you might think of the place as a continuous rape of your destiny (and in some cases it just is; I'm not arguing with you on those: some cases of rage, injustice, "negative" activity - which actually are positive, as they strive to bring change to unjust states of affair - are justified. And if these are your case in point, I don't argue with you at all - I just think differently about the proportions). but you could, alternatively, look at the positive side, your own part in making the place better. You could be thinking of making a contribution, without pledging allegiance to anyone or anything. It's just a good attitude to have in general.
But enough of that - I had no intention to get into this topic.
 

Therapy Inc

Active Member
Sanogo to me represents a no-risk investment. There is nothing to complain about. If he fails, we've lost nothing. If he succeeds, it's a great deal of business.
 

GunnerBP

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
It's a shame that this Sanogo thread has devolved into an unnecessary debate about French nationalism. We've just signed a striker for free who may win the golden boot at the U-20 World Cup. I'd say this is a great bit of transfer business by Arsenal and Wenger, but instead we're discussing how French he may be, which is a pretty archaic debate for this day and age.

Societies nowadays have an unprecedented level of connectivity -- this message board being one of many examples -- and as more and more people move from nation to nation for either work or leisure it is obvious that national allegiances will evolve and societies will become more diverse. It is far more common for people all over the world to feel at home and identify with more than nation and culture.

When it comes to national sports people have to make a choice and just because some people have more than one option regarding the nation that they represent does not mean that they identify any less with the country they have chosen.

Also, this debate regularly pops when people discuss French players of African descent and this is where it becomes unseemly. There are countless white European players who could opt to play for more than one nation and few people question their commitment to the country they have chosen. Arsenal has two players in Podolski and Koscielny who could have played for Poland and instead selected the more successful country to represent. Podolski was born in Poland, his parents are Polish and his wife is Polish and I don't hear anyone question his commitment to Germany as a country or a national team.

Why aren't people annoyed that Koscielny plays for France instead of Poland? Why aren't people questioning how French he is because because his family is Polish regardless of the fact that he was born in France? Sanogo was born in France, and obviously each example has it's differences, but the parallels should be pretty clear.

If Arsenal fans feel that it makes sense to care about how French Sanogo is then we should hijack the Gnabry and Zelalem threads too. Zelalem could represent Ethiopa, the United States and Germany, how much of any of those countries could he really be?

All and all these discussions aren't needed and should be the last thing we care about.

Sanogo appears level headed, well liked, talented, and I haven't heard anybody speak negatively about him. I think that matters a lot more than some perceived notion of his nationalism.
 

jones

Captain Serious
Trusted ⭐
I actually don't disagree with either of you, I just think both of you guys have completely missed the point I was making. Not for one moment have I doubted Yaya's "moral" eligibility for France, or said that he's not French enough for me. My only argument was that a lot of players in this day and age don't choose to represent a national team for any patriotic feelings but rather as a career choice, there are even players that have admitted to doing that (there's an interview with Adil Rami explicitly stating that). It could very well be that Yaya considers himself an Ivorian, but chose to represent France because of the higher chance for trophies, the higher sponsor contracts etc.

This, plus the fact that a lot of talented French players come from housing projects that are not exactly renowned for churning out patriots, led to my statement that a lot of these kids probably don't feel French. I didn't mention it because of their African/Caribbean heritage but more because it's anyone's guess whether these guys actually feel any sort of connection to France. It also has nothing to do with being positive about life, making a contribution and trying to leave the past behind you, you can do all that and still don't feel any connection to the country you're living in.

Whatever, we definitely have a good prospect on our hands, whatever country he represents on the in- and outside. Would be easier to not stray off topic if there was an actual off topic section in the forum by the way.
 

GunnerBP

Established Member
Trusted ⭐
The issue regarding about why someone chooses to represent a country only exists if they have more than one choice.

Until someone has the choice to play for another country we can all assume that he loves his country with all of his heart but that is a false assumption.

All societies have ghettos and environments that may result in someone not appreciating where they live compared to more fortunate individuals, but no one can focus on whether someone loves their home or home country until they have the option of escaping.

French players of African descent are an obvious target because they are clearly not historically French and many grow up in environments within France that probably don't instill the highest level of patriotism. So people ask why do they play for France if they don't appear France and may not like France, and an obvious example reason would be the stability and opportunity for success that playing for the France national team offers instead of their home country or the country of their parents.

We can say that this makes them less French or that they are choosing to play for France for the wrong reasons, but honestly the reason most people immigrate to a country are for the opportunities that said country can offer. Leaving your home to live in a strange land with the hopes that your family will be better off should be a clear indication of how much someone appreciates where they live. The appreciation will be different and in many ways foreign, but it is still there.

People should be able to understand that players can have more than one reason for why they play for a certain national team or even club team. Reason and choice occur when people have options. Prior to choice there is nothing to think about because you can only do one thing anyways, and then it becomes incredibly easy to assume that one explanation for a certain action is the best one ever.

Many national teams are incredibly diverse now and tons of players can pick a couple teams they would like to play for. Just because a player doesn't give a certain answer does not mean that he does not appreciate the country he plays for or that he'll try less on the field.

At the end of the day most people have different reasons for why they do anything, but we should care more about their performance instead of being concerned that their motivations may differ from ours, especially when you consider that our lives are probably completely different.
 

and1rew

Active Member
If I was a black French player not sure I'd feel French at all. When the heads of football are actively trying to bring in legislation to limit the number of players who look like you "to prioritize intelligence", I think you can be excused for feeling a bit disillusioned. It is not these young people who are rejecting France, France is rejecting them.
 

jones

Captain Serious
Trusted ⭐
Agree with most of what you said in that post, but

GunnerBP said:
We can say that this makes them less French or that they are choosing to play for France for the wrong reasons

Just because a player doesn't give a certain answer does not mean that he does not appreciate the country he plays for or that he'll try less on the field.

I never said any of this. Not going to retype it for the fourth time now, not necessary anyways since I think most points have been made on both sides.
 
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