Unai Emery: Adios

[L3T5 PL4Y]

I don't get why Emery would be considered a joke because he finished in 5th twice, 7 points and 1 point off 4th in each season while prioritising the EL come March/April. He deserves criticism for not winning an away game in his final season but again, not sure how that invalidates all of his other work. That's just at Sevilla, not even mentioning how he finished top 3 with Valencia while under financial restrictions and selling some of his better players. Fans of the bigger clubs in Spain might mock him but fans of PL clubs call the likes of Guardiola and Klopp frauds every time they draw a match,

Well they're not irrelevant because 2 BS penalty decisions made a huge difference. It doesn't excuse the performance, but it did contribute to PSG getting knocked out.

Fair enough. If you had just said that you're not a fan of his approach from the beginning, I wouldn't have disagreed with your earlier post. I don't think anyone wants to see a 3 DM set up long-term.

During that time Sevilla couldn't even get someone to put a sponsorship logo on their kit. When at Valencia he delivered every season with close to no financial backing. Not only were they selling the likes of Silva and David Villa they couldn't even dream of an adequate replacement while the people running the club were total clowns.

Milan when still under Berlusconi spent years trying to convince Emery to join and their CEO said Emery was the best manager in the world. I'm not saying I agree btw but saying who said what in the media in the circumstances has very little value.

@kraphtous PSG is not a normal club. I don't remember who but Mbappe or someone said the players don't even have a relationship or talk to each other apart from professional interaction. While he lost a 4-0 lead to Barca, he also got them that lead in the first place.

Emery is not the best manager in the world- I think Klopp will be if he gets Liverpool winning- but he IS one of the best around and there's good reason to believe if things come together for us he has the ability to lead us to being competitive again.

I don't think you're looking at Emery objectively. Its something else you "dislike" that's set you off.

 

[Makingtrax]

Emery is not the best manager in the world- I think Klopp will be if he gets Liverpool winning- but he IS one of the best around and there's good reason to believe if things come together for us he has the ability to lead us to being competitive again.

There’s nothing new in the world though. Klopp got his gegenpressing ideas from Wolfgang Frank his former Mainz coach, who in turn got the coaching technique from Arrigo Sacchi, the father of the high press.

When you have an adaptive manager like Emery it’s easy to think he hasn’t got a style and start saying he doesn’t seem to know what he wants. As people have done in this thread. But as you’ve pointed out he’s had to work without financial backing in the past and it means you have to be more pragmatic.

 

[L3T5 PL4Y]

There’s nothing new in the world though. Klopp got his gegenpressing ideas from Wolfgang Frank his former Mainz coach, who in turn got the coaching technique from Arrigo Sacchi, the father of the high press.

When you have an adaptive manager like Emery it’s easy to think he hasn’t got a style and start saying he doesn’t seem to know what he wants. As people have done in this thread. But as you’ve pointed out he’s had to work without financial backing in the past and it means you have to be more pragmatic.

There's very little room for much left to discover in terms of playing style and tactics. In that case Pep is the ultimate though he is the only one with you know the luxury to do as he pleases with his players and win. And Bielsa if you're looking at a non winning but top of the top creative tactical coach capable of playing a different kind of football. But its ultimately like Pep said himself- the players themselves are what how you play depends on mostly. And football is cyclical as in the players that develop each generation are different from the previous with different characteristics which is a long ****ing process.

The thing with Klopp though he has succeeded in breaking away from the mould and on going trend then imposed ideas, improvized or not, and get results without the best of resources given to him. I mean I knew earlier than most that he'd enjoy the players at Liverpool when he arrived because a big portion of them were right about perfect for his style but those players are still not the best of the best. If he manages to win against Pep with a team of Milner, Henderson et all as mainstays in modern football it would be amazing. And something that needs to happen as well. He did do it against Bayern once and then if he does it against City with Guardiola its huge.

As with Emery, his pragmatism and willingness to adapt goes for as well as against him but its what Arsenal needs for now as far as I am concerned. I mean I want him to show more in terms of a more progressive approach to how we play obviously but there's a time for it and unless we can say he's got a balanced squad with his own kind of players its harsh to judge him on what is out of his hands. Lets at first give him that platform first. He's done better than expected as far I can see.

 

[Makingtrax]

There's very little room for much left to discover in terms of playing style and tactics. In that case Pep is the ultimate though he is the only one with you know the luxury to do as he pleases with his players and win. And Bielsa if you're looking at a non winning but top of the top creative tactical coach capable of playing a different kind of football. But its ultimately like Pep said himself- the players themselves are what how you play depends on mostly. And football is cyclical as in the players that develop each generation are different from the previous with different characteristics which is a long ****ing process.

The thing with Klopp though he has succeeded in breaking away from the mould and on going trend then imposed ideas, improvized or not, and get results without the best of resources given to him. I mean I knew earlier than most that he'd enjoy the players at Liverpool when he arrived because a big portion of them were right about perfect for his style but those players are still not the best of the best. If he manages to win against Pep with a team of Milner, Henderson et all as mainstays in modern football it would be amazing. And something that needs to happen as well. He did do it against Bayern once and then if he does it against City with Guardiola its huge.

As with Emery, his pragmatism and willingness to adapt goes for as well as against him but its what Arsenal needs for now as far as I am concerned. I mean I want him to show more in terms of a more progressive approach to how we play obviously but there's a time for it and unless we can say he's got a balanced squad with his own kind of players its harsh to judge him on what is out of his hands. Lets at first give him that platform first. He's done better than expected as far I can see.

Agreed. But Milner, Henderson and Lallana are really not that bad. They may not be the icing on the Klopp’s cake but they are very strong and consistent squad players. Very similar in level to Welbeck. England internationals that can perform to a high level without being elite.

Trouble is Welbeck’s been injured on and off for years whilst Milner puts in a reliable and strong shift whenever he’s needed.

 

[bingobob]

@Makingtrax you should know I have a lot of pent up frustration. Not surprising that it comes out.

We've had an average league finish higher than Liverpool based on your figures, if you started a year later we'd have identical league average finishes. So even the facts are highly subjective.

You'd need to ask a Liverpool fan if they'd be happy strongly challenging and reaching major finals but not winning. All I can say is that it is an improvement on our own barren years when we failed to compete at the top domestically or in Europe.

Anyway. Viva Emry long live the revolution!

 

[Makingtrax]

@Makingtrax you should know I have a lot of pent up frustration. Not surprising that it comes out.

We've had an average league finish higher than Liverpool based on your figures, if you started a year later we'd have identical league average finishes. So even the facts are highly subjective.

You'd need to ask a Liverpool fan if they'd be happy strongly challenging and reaching major finals but not winning. All I can say is that it is an improvement on our own barren years when we failed to compete at the top domestically or in Europe.

Anyway. Viva Emry long live the revolution!

But we’ve still won an incredible 3 FA Cups in that time and they’ve won nothing. They are not barren years.

The only barren years was when Wenger was getting top 4 continually, spending less than Stoke, between 2004 and 2012. And I would argue that it was quite some achievement.

But I’ve got high hopes for Emery if Sven can get a couple more players of Guendouzi type quality next summer.

 

[dka1]

But we’ve still won an incredible 3 FA Cups in that time and they’ve won nothing. They are not barren years.

The only barren years was when Wenger was getting top 4 continually, spending less than Stoke, between 2004 and 2012. And I would argue that it was quite some achievement.

But I’ve got high hopes for Emery if Sven can get a couple more players of Guendouzi type quality next summer.

Was that a typo? Sven won't be here next summer, but we need to find a good replacement for him as Guendouzi type players will have to be our lifeline for quite a while.

I agree and disagree overall. Yes Wenger winning 3 FA Cups is brilliant and certainly winning trophies is ultimately what football is about.

But our slip in progress especially last season is/was worrying.

At the same time if we take Tottenham for example; all of their progress means nothing if Poch leaves and perhaps Kane and Erikson go as well, they'd have won nothing, and be in a bad situation.

Overall I guess the main aim is for both, but at the very least I'd take not winning trophies if the progress we can make guarantees a big trophy at the end of it.

But that's something you can never guarantee...sigh....

 

[L3T5 PL4Y]

Agreed. But Milner, Henderson and Lallana are really not that bad. They may not be the icing on the Klopp’s cake but they are very strong and consistent squad players. Very similar in level to Welbeck. England internationals that can perform to a high level without being elite.

Trouble is Welbeck’s been injured on and off for years whilst Milner puts in a reliable and strong shift whenever he’s needed.

Lallana I like a lot. If it weren't for injuries he'd be really good. Henderson and Milner are just serviceable professionals. But the thing is while they have the attributes for Klopp's football he has made them better and gotten results out of them. Not just them but Lovren, Wijnaldum etc and some of the one's that aren't there any more like their previous GKs. And while that much feared front 3 despite their output were not exactly elite level talents to begin with have become outstanding playing breathtaking football.

Gomes and Arnold are talented youngsters btw while Wijnaldum was once considered a top prospect. Robertson is someone I wanted us to sign and was surprised nobody went for him before Liverpool but Klopp manages to get an extraordinary level of performance out of them.

 

[Makingtrax]

Lallana I like a lot. If it weren't for injuries he'd be really good. Henderson and Milner are just serviceable professionals. But the thing is while they have the attributes for Klopp's football he has made them better and gotten results out of them. Not just them but Lovren, Wijnaldum etc and some of the one's that aren't there any more like their previous GKs. And while that much feared front 3 despite their output were not exactly elite level talents to begin with have become outstanding playing breathtaking football.

Gomes and Arnold are talented youngsters btw while Wijnaldum was once considered a top prospect. Robertson is someone I wanted us to sign and was surprised nobody went for him before Liverpool but Klopp manages to get an extraordinary level of performance out of them.

Getting a team to play better than the sum of their parts is the ultimate achievement of every manager, you’re right. Right now he has £700m+ squad, and if he can beat Pep’s £900+ squad, there’s no doubt he will have achieved that.

 

[Makingtrax]

Was that a typo? Sven won't be here next summer, but we need to find a good replacement for him as Guendouzi type players will have to be our lifeline for quite a while.

I agree and disagree overall. Yes Wenger winning 3 FA Cups is brilliant and certainly winning trophies is ultimately what football is about.

But our slip in progress especially last season is/was worrying.

At the same time if we take Tottenham for example; all of their progress means nothing if Poch leaves and perhaps Kane and Erikson go as well, they'd have won nothing, and be in a bad situation.

Overall I guess the main aim is for both, but at the very least I'd take not winning trophies if the progress we can make guarantees a big trophy at the end of it.

But that's something you can never guarantee...sigh....

Yeah forgot, he’s off on Friday. Not good news really. Sky reckons it’s Overmars or Monchi to come in.

 

[RacingPhoton]

Getting a team to play better than the sum of their parts is the ultimate achievement of every manager, you’re right. Right now he has £700m+ squad, and if he can beat Pep’s £900+ squad, there’s no doubt he will have achieved that.

I have some genuine doubts about the way you calculate the squad-cost.
1) When you say £900+ squad, is it the sum of transfer fee that was paid to buy the player? Or is it the sum of salaries for each players?
2) Say a team buys player X for 10 million. He turns out to be an amazing player and gets valued at 100 million. What is the squad cost now?
3) Continuing on 2, if the player gets sold for the 100 million and the team buys more players for that money. What is the squad cost now? In such cases, credit should still go to the scout and the manager for turning the player to a 100 million player.

 

[Makingtrax]

I have some genuine doubts about the way you calculate the squad-cost.
1) When you say £900+ squad, is it the sum of transfer fee that was paid to buy the player? Or is it the sum of salaries for each players?
2) Say a team buys player X for 10 million. He turns out to be an amazing player and gets valued at 100 million. What is the squad cost now?
3) Continuing on 2, if the player gets sold for the 100 million and the team buys more players for that money. What is the squad cost now? In such cases, credit should still go to the scout and the manager for turning the player to a 100 million player.

1)It’s the sum of what the club paid for each player to assemble the 25 man squad. These days everybody uses the CIES figures. They publish them every year.
http://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/b5wp/2018/233/en/

2) That’s the squad value, Transfermarkt tries to work that out but it’s just guesswork

3) Money comes from various sources . . club profits, donations from owners, profits from selling players that leave etc.

 

[L3T5 PL4Y]

Getting a team to play better than the sum of their parts is the ultimate achievement of every manager, you’re right. Right now he has £700m+ squad, and if he can beat Pep’s £900+ squad, there’s no doubt he will have achieved that.

Those numbers don't tell the real difference between the two squads. Its actually much greater in Pep's favour player for player.

 

[Furious]

Might be the worst football we've ever played over the last couple of months.

We were really fortunate with Wenger.

 

[krackpot]

Still no idea what we are trying to do on the pitch.

 

[say yes]

It's the start of February and we've already won more away games than we did in the entirety of last season.

'We were really fortunate with Wenger'

 

[Notorious Big]

Get to top 4 will be some achievement for Unai.This squad is poor as ****.Judge him after 3 transfer windows.

 

[truth_hurts]

It isn't pretty, but it is getting results.

 

[krackpot]

It's the start of February and we've already won more away games than we did in the entirety of last season.

'We were really fortunate with Wenger'

he main difference has been our performance in the big games.

Apart from that, I'd actually prefer the Wenger style.

 

[TromsoGooner]

Still no idea what we are trying to do on the pitch.

That is my main worry. Result wise we`ve performed pretty much as expected but it`s very hard to see any plan or structure to our play.