Mikel Arteta: Fighting Until The End

[Iceman10]

Even if AMN was not going to turn out to be an acceptable CM (tbd) can anyone justify the constant playing of Bellerin without giving AMN a sniff of a chance, only a one-off chance at LB where he was understandably rusty? I’m not talking about pecking order, instead at least sensible rotation where you build up two players at the same time to ably and confidently cover the position. It isn’t really as if Bellerin has been anything special this season.

Some here in my view still need a lightbulb moment in questioning whether Arteta is short with his squad in part due to his own decisions and squad management. As a result we are stuck with Bellerin, Cedric, and Tierney for the two full back positions when we are playing matches every three days and Tierney is struggling with his fitness. There are similar cases for CM and other positions on the pitch. We probably do need a better squad for Top 4, but not to expect us to remain at EL (Top 6 or FA Cup win) level. We’re thin on options and backup primarily due to Arteta himself.

 

[krackpot]

I have a feeling that Mikel is following Pep's man-management too closely. Think he just ghosts some of the younger/low-confidence players.

The comments from other players about Pep ring too close to home:

Zlatan on Pep:
"Guardiola was staring at me and I lost it. I thought, 'there is my enemy, scratching his bald head!' I yelled: 'You haven't got any b***s!' and worse than that I added: 'You can go to hell!' I completely lost it, and you might have expected Guardiola to say a few words in response, but he's a spineless coward."

"As a coach, he was fantastic. As a person, I've no comments about that, that's something else. He's not a man, there's nothing more to say."

Eto'o on Pep:
"I love him as a coach, but not as a person."

 

[Rasmi]

Dont care about Arteta as much as the quality we are putting on the pitch. I’ll trade him for a right back, a CF, a CM and a backup LB.

Way too much stock in managers. There are not that many who are world class and will have any more of an impact than Arteta today. All of these manager have there own issues, its just a matter of what flavor you can tolerate.

And there it is. If you repeat a lie over and over enough people will believe it. There are no world class managers out there who can do better than Arteta keeping this squad at 10th after 25 games

Hell this was one of the thing they were saying when we were linked with him. There no world class managers there, so we might take a risk on a man who has never managed. The way to defend Arteta now is completely downplay the level of the squad and create two tier manager system. World class who has like 6-7 managers and rest are average. So since no world class manager is gonna come and take us to league title. Might as well stick with Arteta.

I also don’t get moving the goalpost midway through the season. Hand on heart before the first match of the season if you were told Arsenal will finish 9-10th. Should the manager get another season. I really doubt many would say yes. Now we have people not only on with it, but already putting the work that next season he may not get Europa league either and that’s ok too

 

[The_Playmaker]

I get what you are saying regarding the message sent by falling out even from EL football and still keeping the manager. It will be rationalised though with excuses while saying being out of EL football is unacceptable but Arteta is still the person to dig the club out of the mess. I just look at AMN, Chambers, Torreira, Guendouzi, and more recently Martinelli as cases of inefficient use of resources he could have had at his disposal. For a long time Pepe was sidelined also. I excuse the Özil case as I would have done the same, and also Saliba, although messing up the loan last summer was inexcusable. Willian also is a case of wastage of resources and keeping on trying to get things to work with Willian has affected tine and development for other players.

All this track record of inefficient use of assets and resources suggests Arteta would just be the wrong manager to take us forward if we fall out of EL and have small transfer budgets as a result. He’s trying to be a Pep or chequebook Mourinho without seeing he doesn’t have the same chequebook to draw on. We would need someone more similar to Brendan Rodgers.

I think Potter is a prime example of getting the most you can out of the squad you have. Arteta is underachieving with his squad. The purpose of a coach is to get the most out of the players so that they play above their level. The amount of players we had out of form at the exact same time was insane.

The point that you make about Arteta being his worst enemy is basically true.

He could have had options at cm. Guendouzi, Torreira, Partey, Ceballos, Xhaka. Is that top 4? No. Is it too 7? Probably. Instead he is happy with Elneny? Why? Because he is a yes man and a nice guy.

AMN could have competed at right back. The fact that he inverted him and he played brilliantly, shows that he was so much better for that type of role than Bellerin. He could have sat him down and said look, where do you want to play? RM? Saks is there? CM? We have 5 specialists and Partey is one of them. However at RB you only have one player in your way who isn't pulling up trees and we invert so when we don't have the ball you are a cm anyway. Nope, out of the squad,out on loan.

Willian over Nelson. Saliba, no chance given. Martinelli now, outasted after one bad half. It's a joke. If we stick with him, we are going nowhere. Why are we his practice club. He can make all the errors he wants, have all the power, while he learns on the job and underachieves.

 

[kash2]

kroenke, dirty money, the FA, referees, media, rabid brexity fans and atmosphere....

wenger didnt fit in with any of this so he left and never looked back.

nothing much has changed since. Its only the academy he left behind which is keeping us afloat. The ownership and board is totally dogshit which can be seen in the amount of chaos they have caused from the point they got full ownership.

Mikel is a cheap option they picked and he will do his best, but he will do whatever he does inspite of this crap owners

 

[AberGooner]

Dont care about Arteta as much as the quality we are putting on the pitch. I’ll trade him for a right back, a CF, a CM and a backup LB.

Way too much stock in managers. There are not that many who are world class and will have any more of an impact than Arteta today. All of these manager have there own issues, its just a matter of what flavor you can tolerate.

That's blatantly untrue though. How many managers do we see getting much more out of squads who have far less quality than ours? I'm not even talking about title challenging squads either as we're a million miles off that but certainly far higher than 10th in the league.

It doesn't even have to be a Pep or a Klopp either by this point, we're at a stage whereby a lot of people have questions whether someone like Potter would have us further up the table. I'm not saying he's someone I want in either but it's a fair question.

 

[Sweet'n'Soulful]

There is one context where it is useful. A faction of fans started to get on Wenger’s back when Top 4 was no longer good enough for them, and that was despite our obvious resource deficit compared with the sugar daddy clubs and United. I blame that toxic environment for affecting Wenger’s performance as much as any “decline” with him

No, sorry, I couldn’t disagree more. While money obviously helps, he had a team on paper that was more than capable of challenging for the title, as he proved a few times, but more crucially, when we finished runners up to Leicester. Also, this ‘toxic environment’ didn’t stop us winning 3 FA cups despite falling off the pace in the league. This argument has been done to death tbh. It’s ridiculously easy to debunk. Blaming a toxic environment is such a cop-out tbh. Social media is always toxic but that’s social media for you. The fans in the stadium—well those who bothered to turn up—were just silent and disgruntled like you’d expect them to be. You’re attempting to rewrite history mate.

 

[GLITCH]

I think Potter is a prime example of getting the most you can out of the squad you have.

Potter would do better with this squad. I wasn't sure about him, but from the few times I've watched Brighton play, they create a lot of chances, but lacking a good striker. If they had Ings for example, they'd be a lot higher up the table.

 

[pikey2000]

I think Potter is a prime example of getting the most you can out of the squad you have. Arteta is underachieving with his squad. The purpose of a coach is to get the most out of the players so that they play above their level. The amount of players we had out of form at the exact same time was insane.

The point that you make about Arteta being his worst enemy is basically true.

He could have had options at cm. Guendouzi, Torreira, Partey, Ceballos, Xhaka. Is that top 4? No. Is it too 7? Probably. Instead he is happy with Elneny? Why? Because he is a yes man and a nice guy.

AMN could have competed at right back. The fact that he inverted him and he played brilliantly, shows that he was so much better for that type of role than Bellerin. He could have sat him down and said look, where do you want to play? RM? Saks is there? CM? We have 5 specialists and Partey is one of them. However at RB you only have one player in your way who isn't pulling up trees and we invert so when we don't have the ball you are a cm anyway. Nope, out of the squad,out on loan.

Willian over Nelson. Saliba, no chance given. Martinelli now, outasted after one bad half. It's a joke. If we stick with him, we are going nowhere. Why are we his practice club. He can make all the errors he wants, have all the power, while he learns on the job and underachieves.

It's hard to judge a manager who is under such pressure to get us back up the league, that will no doubt be influencing his decision to pick experience over youth, he needs every single point he can get and playing the likes of Saliba/AMN/Willock/Nelson and Martinelli is a gamble he can't afford right now, rightly or wrong in my view that will be the way he is thinking right now.

Tbh, aside from Martinelli, Willock and AMN needed a loan, and AMN was from what we can tell hell-bent on getting a loan where he could play CM, so they were the right decision, they are now both getting game time in the PL, Saliba has been a cluster **** from day 1 for the club, we will see the true situation with him next season, Nelson has done nothing to warrant a starting place in the team and should have taken a loan and as much as we all like Martinelli he is still very raw and needs development time, I'm sure if we weren't already out of both domestic cups and through the early stages of EL he would have been getting that game time.

I'll be interested to see what the squad looks like at the start of next season with another window done and hopefully a proper pre-season where Arteta can test the younger players and asses who he thinks is going to get a shot.

 

[Iceman10]

If we get through against Benfica then I imagine things will ease a bit in here for the time being but it isn’t exactly as if beating that weak Benfica team suddenly makes us favourites to win the tournament.

We’ve arrived where we are in this thread over the last few days precisely because we are as few as 2-3 bad results away from being out of even the EL for next season and it is right to stand ground against any moving of goalposts in advance of that possible eventuality. The way the squad was used, still not putting the Benfica tie to bed in the first leg almost guaranteed compromising the team selections for City and Leicester matches, which means our chances of entry into EL via. PL position have slimmed significantly with the entry way via. FA Cup already eliminated also.

 

[Iceman10]

No, sorry, I couldn’t disagree more. While money obviously helps, he had a team on paper that was more than capable of challenging for the title, as he proved a few times, but more crucially, when we finished runners up to Leicester. Also, this ‘toxic environment’ didn’t stop us winning 3 FA cups despite falling off the pace in the league. This argument has been done to death tbh. It’s ridiculously easy to debunk. Blaming a toxic environment is such a cop-out tbh. Social media is always toxic but that’s social media for you. The fans in the stadium—well those who bothered to turn up—were just silent and disgruntled like you’d expect them to be. You’re attempting to rewrite history mate.

He had a First XI on paper that could challenge for titles *thanks to him* making some good buys in the first decade of this century but he never had squad depth for arduous long seasons to provide depth and cover for injuries. Anyway, ask yourself if you would have advocated the Wenger buys for those first teams with the limited resources he had or was that all his genius you fail to give him credit for.

 

[Finesse]

During this lockdown I have taken time to watch more football in addition to Arsenal games. I must admit sometimes wearing the Arsenal shirt glosses over the ability of some players. Playing for Arsenal adds some perception of quality to some players.

I have watched Potter’s side and Roger’s side and must admit the way they play , some players from our side would not get into these teams. I have seen Potter’s team play and move the ball against top sides the same way we want to. However for obvious reasons they manage to do it with ease and precision. This same moves don’t materialise at Arsenal. Either the pass is short or over hit , or the player lacks the vision , timid or makes a completely wrong decision. The usual culprits are always at the end of it. If it is not Hector then it is Pepe or Mo or Cedric or Niles , Willian , Auba or Laça. I mean basic applications which I have seen Potters and Rogers team do every week. The size of this club , history and fan base inflate a players ability and status far beyond what a club like Leicester or Brighton would do to a player.

Yes it may be Arteta who is not getting the best of them. However maybe we have to consider not all these players are good enough as we project and equally expect. We have some top players sprinkled with the rest not really up to scratch. I have watched Niles at Westbrom and pondered if he really played for us and why we turned down the money for him. I can assure you most of these players may use their glossy Arsenal names to get recruited into these 2 teams but will not stay in it. We really underestimate how these clubs have bought and the kind of quality they have with no gloss over their names.

Like seriously will Eddie , Willian , Mo , Cedric etc get into the Leicester team? At one stage we had Runnarson in goal. Common which club in the PL would have this kid in goal?

 

[North5]

If you were Wenger Out (myself included) and are happy with what Arteta has been up to then there isn't any point having a discussion.

 

[Rasmi]

If we get through against Benfica then I imagine things will ease a bit in here for the time being but it isn’t exactly as if beating that weak Benfica team suddenly makes us favourites to win the tournament.

We’ve arrived where we are in this thread over the last few days precisely because we are as few as 2-3 bad results away from being out of even the EL for next season and it is right to stand ground against any moving of goalposts in advance of that possible eventuality. The way the squad was used, still not putting the Benfica tie to bed in the first leg almost guaranteed compromising the team selections for City and Leicester matches, which means our chances of entry into EL via. PL position have slimmed significantly with the entry way via. FA Cup already eliminated also.

A defeat to Leicester means Burnley away is massive game. Cause losing that also means 10 wins and 13 losses in the league. We could find us behind teams like palace and Brighton after 27 league game lol

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

I was pro Wenger till the end but I can kind of see why some people turned on him towards the end.

We'd seen everything we were going to see from Wenger, we knew how we'd set up away to big teams. We could predict the subs at the 70th minute mark. Things had become somewhat stale in general.

I think a lot of fans just became bored and frustrated after such a long tenure and wanted change, maybe change for the sake of change in hindsight. I think it's a fairly natural reaction to be honest.

Sometimes the grass just isn't greener though. That's a lesson to learn.

I will say this though. If we'd have replaced Wenger with someone like Klopp when he was available or another manager of that calibre, we'd probably not being romanticizing finishing 4th under Wenger in his latter years, the way we are currently.

 

[Penn_]

Keep seeing this league table from Christmas floating round. While there was a great win against Chelsea in there, didn’t we also play 4/5 of the leagues worst defences?

I’m sure Wenger / Emery actually preformed better on those sort of skewed tables anyway.

 

[goonergaz]

What you are talking about is getting back into the CL after falling out of the Top 4. That is different from expectations of winning PL titles at that point. The pressure on Wenger started because a certain faction of fans were unrealistic and impatient win expectations for PL titles back around 2014 and that in my view affected Wenger’s job performance. Back in the late 1990s when the club transitioned with manager changes and player buys it was all done with much less volume from fans. None of the “geniuses” would have picked Wenger, and they would be unlikely to go with Bergkamp either, let alone Henry who looked a mess in Italy before he was transformed by Wenger.

People forget what Wenger did for this club. They also forget that he brought an amazing brand of exciting football. They fail to understand when we were planning the stadium move there were no sugar daddies and the footballing landscape dramatically shifted beyond anyone's expectations!

Unfortunately his last few years undid everything - like the positive never happened. Kind of reminds me of a marriage gone wrong ending in a destructive divorce...like they were never in love and had good times

 

[Makingtrax]

12/13
CL
England: 2 teams in round of 16 (eliminated)
Spain: 4 teams in round of 16, 3 teams in quarter-finals, 2 teams in semifinals

EL
England: 4 in R16, 2 quarterfinals, winner Chelsea
Spain: 1 in R16

13/14
CL
England: 4 in R16, 2 in QF, 1 in semis
Spain: 3 in R16, 3 in QF, 2 in semis, 2 in final, winner Madrid

EL
England: 1 in R16
Spain: 3 in R16 (drew each other), 2 in QF, 2 in semis, winner Sevilla

14/15
CL
England: 3 in R16 (eliminated)
Spain: 3 in QF (drew each other), 2 in semis, winner Barcelona

EL
England: 1 in R16
Spain: 2 in R16 (drew each other), 1 in QF, 1 in semis, winner Sevilla

15/16
CL
England: 3 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in semis
Spain: 3 in R16, 3 in QF (drew each other), 2 in semifinals, 2 in final, winner Madrid

EL
England: 3 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in semifinals, 1 in final
Spain: 4 in R16 (drew each other), 3 in QF (drew each other), 2 in semifinals, winner Sevilla

16/17
CL
England: 3 in R16, 1 in QF
Spain: 4 in R16, 3 in QF, 2 in semifinal (drew each other), winner Madrid

EL
England: 1 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in SF, winner Manchester United
Spain: 1 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in SF

17/18
CL
England: 4 in R16, 2 in QF (drew each other), 1 in SF, 1 in final
Spain: 3 in R16, 3 in QF, 1 in SF, winner Madrid

EL
England: 1 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in SF, 1 in final
Spain: 2 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in SF, winner Atlético

18/19
CL
England: 4 in R16, 4 in QF, 2 in SF, 2 in final, winner Liverpool
Spain: 3 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in SF

EL
England: 2 in R16, 2 in QF, 2 in SF, 2 in final, winner Chelsea
Spain: 3 in R16, 2 in QF (drew each other), 1 in SF

19/20 (*pandemic effects worth nothing?)
CL
England: 4 in R16, 1 in QF
Spain: 4 in R16, 2 in QF

EL
England: 2 in R16, 2 in QF, 1 in semifinals, 1 in final
Spain: 2 in R16, 1 in QF, 1 in semifinals, winner Sevilla





Clear trend if there ever was one.

Facts:
*From 12-13 to 16-17, just once did all 4 teams from England qualify for the R16 in CL. Since, every single year.

*In that same time, England had 4 quarterfinalists to Spain's 14. Since, 7 to 6.

*In that same time, England had 2 semifinalists to Spain's 10. Since, 3 to 2.

*In that same time, England had 0 finalists to Spain's 6, and 4 winners. Since, 3 to 1, 1 winner each.


(EL evidence you can tally up yourself, but it presents a similar if not as brutally clear picture)

You’re not still flogging this? Look, you’re assertion that the league is tougher for Arteta as evidenced by how well English teams are doing in Europe is a busted flush.

If you don’t accept my chart just look at the Country Coefficients worked out for the CL and the EL on a five year rolling average points basis by UEFA. Not once did England top the chart back to 2012, Spain win every year. But 2012 back to 2007 we topped the European charts. So by your own argument the league was tougher for Wenger in the years he had the least money. But he still made top 4, unlike your boy.

https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2021

 

[Macho]

But that's guesswork at best. "Arteta worked for Pep and Pep works at rich clubs so if you give Arteta Pep's transfer kitty he will be as good as Pep" is just wishful thinking, nothing more.

Was being kind tbh, I've said numerous times 200 mil wouldn't help Arteta at this stage of his career

I don't see much about him but if he were to work, it would only be at an oil club tbh where the players would be able to carry. Player power would have seen him out quickly though so there wouldn't be paying off Özil and etc.

 

[Rasmi]

Keep seeing this league table from Christmas floating round. While there was a great win against Chelsea in there, didn’t we also play 4/5 of the leagues worst defences?

I’m sure Wenger / Emery actually preformed better on those sort of skewed tables anyway.

Brighton, West Brom, Newcastle and Leeds. Those 4 wins lifted us from flirting with relegation to mid table. I just hope his fans don’t say well some of you were saying we would get relegated and we finished way above relegation. Proved you wrong