Mikel Arteta: Managerial Royalty

[Finesse]

You make some good points but for Bellerin I wasn’t arguing about pecking order, instead more about squad depth/rotation and squad competition. When we talk about the squad being “average” that is a vague term and I prefer to state what position in the table would be expected from this current squad, including AMN, Guendouzi, Torreira, and Martinelli (latest to be marginalised a little). My expectation has been Top 6-8, not 10th.

You bring up system and direction since December but you also point out the over-reliance on Saka and ESR. What you are saying is we need buys instead of bringing out the best from Pepe, Martinelli, Reiss, and some others. That’s the problem because that all will cost a lot of money, losing a lot in trying to dump Pepe to make way also, and Saka/ESR were already at the club pre-Arteta anyway, so they do not contribute to credit for confidence in any transfer market moves either. The only transfer move by Arteta for creative has been Willian.

The question is if there is a better way for us to get Top 6, forget Top 4. I believe there has been instead of Arteta’s inefficient use of assets and resources at his disposal. If we get back into EL/CL next season we can continue with Arteta’s way, or at least I am
ok with that. If we don’t and we have limited transfer budget as a result I think we have to go in a different direction.

All the marginalised players quoted above apart from the loaned players have not really taken their chances to be honest. AMN has been poor all season and take time to watch him WestBrom to understand. Martinelli since the Chelsea game and few substitute performances has been average and still creeping into form. The expectation on top 6-8 is okay but we have a lot of games to go and we can get there. For me, it is how we play that matters. That is going to be the basis of our transfer window and who we bring in to fit in.

We have over relied on Saka and ESR because they are the best we have to keep us creative. It is not by choice but necessity. Pepe , Martinelli , Nelson etc cannot provide a shadow of what these 2 offer. For the sake of rotation when he rotates we complain , he plays the same players we complain of burn out etc. He rotated vs City and we complained. Do you think Nelson and co would have done better over the weekend? Is it a given?

We are where we are and need to shape for next season now.
Dead wood cleared out , and for once we know who can do what and not do what. This team picks itself. We need a few more first team players too. But we need a structure and system of operation. That is what we are developing.

I don't want to subscribe to this its all doom , he must go and get someone else mantra. We know he is not getting sacked now. Even if he does , I can see what he is doing for another manager to inherit. The amount of deadwood this club has been carrying is criminal.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

What? Of course there’s evidence. He’d been Mr consistency, never faltered no matter what the owners threw at him moneywise, top 4 for 20 years. Unheard of. He’d just finished 2nd above Klopp, Poch, LVG, Pelligrini, Mourinho. And suddenly he dropped out when the fan campaign to remove him really started in earnest. There’s your facts and evidence, no hypothesis.

To suggest that he would have declined anyway without the campaign is laughable. To suggest that all that humiliating sh!t had no effect on him or the team is beyond belief and that is most certainly what is without proof.

A managers abilities during the course of their career don't stay static in comparison their peers. How old was Wenger when he left? 68? There are very few managers at that age on the absolute cutting edge of football management. A new generation of managers was coming through in the PL. Wenger's stubbornness was a big advantage for the majority of his career, that and age probably caught up with him towards the end of his tenure here.

That's a very plausible scenario because we've seen similar situations play out with other managers

On the other hand, from your perspective you have a still world class manager who dropped off fairly markedly in terms of on field performances and results purely because you heard people say nasty things about him at the Emirates, banners were flown and mean things were said online about him. I severely doubt Arsène was scouring Twitter or the Arsenal blogs reading that nonsense

That's an implausible scenario. If that exact scenario was put forth to defend another manager at another club that you didn't have any emotional attachment to, you'd laugh at it most likely.


Everything that I've read and heard from Arsène is that the pressure that he feels the most is the internal one he puts on himself to be successful, and that's always been the case throughout his career.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

I think deep down you know you’re ignoring the wider picture and trying to angle an argument of a small set of data. But even so we haven’t topped Spain once in those years you’re isolating.

8 years of continental competition across 12+ clubs each year is a small set of data...hm... Inscrutable the logic and mental gymnastics of manberg/maxingtrax xD

I mean, there’s clearly been progression since Chelsea/ESR introduction. It’s just a question of if he should be fired based on the insane squad building decisions (Willian deal/persistence on starting, no CAM addition) that led to those results in the first third of the season.

Indeed, the summer was absolutely a fiasco squad planning-wise, and this season has mostly been a consequence of that.

But I think the answer to the question (should he be fired for that? Would we be better off firing and bringing in a new manager) is certainly, for the time being, no. If we don't continue this upward curve since the inclusion of ESR and now Ødegaard, certainly that answer would change at the end of the season.

 

[Kav]

Everyone is acting like we need Thursday night football. It's renowned for being a strain on teams and often will put you at a disadvantage with a day less to recover.

Maybe what we actually need is a season where we can just concentrate on the League - as much as we may want to be in it maybe it will be a blessing in disguise, with the summer window we will know for sure where Kroenke stands...and let's be honest here, he's invested a lot of money in buying the club so its in his interest to ensure he looks after it.

So, if we don't qualify and Kroenke doesn't get his cheque book out then we know exactly where to vent our frustrations, if he backs Arteta and things don't improve then he's a gonner (if he's still around by end of the season).


It depends what his remit is. Sometimes you have to completely break something to rebuild it better and stronger...it wasn't just the dead wood it was the attitude and also I think Emery (who may well be a good manager) did some damage as the players just didn't seem to understand what he wanted, so Arteta has come into a much less stable scenario than Emery did.


There are some weird things that have happened for sure, and maybe this is just down to inexperience or maybe he's been given free reign to 'fix' things.

We've not had a decent run with Partey yet - Xhaka (for me) is still a liability, rash tackles in dangerous areas - silly cards and lazy passes which cost us goals (or at least chances against). We've shown flashes of improvement, but nothing consistent and all compounded by Auba all of a sudden being off form which no-one could have predicted and that is ultimately costing the team.

So your defense of Arteta is that to fix Arsenal we need to break it and rebuild it, by dropping out of all European competitions and only focus on the league the next season.

I can see the thinking but it’s a flawed logic to be honest. The negatives far outweigh the positives. I don’t think that’s the hill Arteta fans want to die on.

 

[Garrincha]

So your defense of Arteta is that to fix Arsenal we need to break it and rebuild it, by dropping out of all European competitions and only focus on the league the next season.

I can see the thinking but it’s a flawed logic to be honest. The negatives far outweigh the positives. I don’t think that’s the hill Arteta fans want to die on.

meanwhile Arteta selling players this dream

“When I talked with the manager he told me why he needed me for three years.

“It was that he first wanted to qualify for the Champions League and win it by the time I left. That was what I wanted to hear.

“I was at Chelsea for seven years and won everything except the Champions League.

“Hopefully this move will give me the trophy I haven’t got as well as another Premier League title.”

 

[Makingtrax]

A managers abilities during the course of their career don't stay static in comparison their peers. How old was Wenger when he left? 68? There are very few managers at that age on the absolute cutting edge of football management. A new generation of managers was coming through in the PL. Wenger's stubbornness was a big advantage for the majority of his career, that and age probably caught up with him towards the end of his tenure here.

That's a very plausible scenario.

On the other hand, from your perspective you have a still world class manager who dropped off fairly markedly in terms of on field performances and results purely because you heard people say nasty things about him at the Emirates, banners were flown and mean things were said online about him. I severely doubt Arsène was scouring Twitter or the Arsenal blogs reading that nonsense

That's an implausible scenario. If that scenario was put forth to defend another manager at another club that you didn't have any emotional attachment to, you'd laugh at it most likely.


Everything that I've read and heard from Arsène is that the pressure that he feels the most is the internal one he puts on himself, and that's always been the case throughout his career.

You don’t have to scour Twitter when there’s planes overhead telling you to **** off and people in the crowd shouting abuse and protests outside the stadium.

He was publicly humiliated in a very high profile way, and he folded. If you’re saying it was all coincidence, I don’t know what to say to you. But it sounds ludicrous to me, definitely without proof, and he’d never done it before. People in the workplace are known to have break downs from one person bullying them. Try thousands and see how you’d get on. What you’re implying is preposterous.

 

[Makingtrax]

A managers abilities during the course of their career don't stay static in comparison their peers. How old was Wenger when he left? 68? There are very few managers at that age on the absolute cutting edge of football management. A new generation of managers was coming through in the PL. Wenger's stubbornness was a big advantage for the majority of his career, that and age probably caught up with him towards the end of his tenure here.

That's a very plausible scenario because we've seen similar situations play out with other managers

On the other hand, from your perspective you have a still world class manager who dropped off fairly markedly in terms of on field performances and results purely because you heard people say nasty things about him at the Emirates, banners were flown and mean things were said online about him. I severely doubt Arsène was scouring Twitter or the Arsenal blogs reading that nonsense

That's an implausible scenario. If that exact scenario was put forth to defend another manager at another club that you didn't have any emotional attachment to, you'd laugh at it most likely.


Everything that I've read and heard from Arsène is that the pressure that he feels the most is the internal one he puts on himself to be successful, and that's always been the case throughout his career.

And as for his age. He was witty and eloquent at pressers. I used to love them and so did the journos.He was up at 5.30 ran on the treadmill, worked out, worked hard all day and ate a multitude of salads. Last year he played in an outdoor 11 a side match. I doubt many of the batch of current managers could match that bro. He showed no sign of age related problems.

 

[goonergaz]

A managers abilities during the course of their career don't stay static in comparison their peers. How old was Wenger when he left? 68? There are very few managers at that age on the absolute cutting edge of football management. A new generation of managers was coming through in the PL. Wenger's stubbornness was a big advantage for the majority of his career, that and age probably caught up with him towards the end of his tenure here.

That's a very plausible scenario.

On the other hand, from your perspective you have a still world class manager who dropped off fairly markedly in terms of on field performances and results purely because you heard people say nasty things about him at the Emirates, banners were flown and mean things were said online about him. I severely doubt Arsène was scouring Twitter or the Arsenal blogs reading that nonsense

That's an implausible scenario. If that exact scenario was put forth to defend another manager at another club that you didn't have any emotional attachment to, you'd laugh at it most likely.


Everything that I've read and heard from Arsène is that the pressure that he feels the most is the internal one he puts on himself to be successful, and that's always been the case throughout his career.

TBH it's a bit of both. When you're top of your game and world class (like Wenger) you are your worst critic. So that's true.

When fans are going out of their way to spread a hate campaign - AFCTV, banners, chanting (etc) - that will play a part both on and off them field, even if it doesn't affect Wenger it might affect some players...it certainly isn't a positive.

He was losing his edge (if that's age or just his style went out of vogue is debateable) - we were always 'in' games - even when losing you felt we could snatch a goal...our mantra was always to score more than the opposition, mostly because he wasn't a very good defensive manager - if you think about it, he inherited a great defence and by sobering them up made the best better! After that his buying at defence was ok, but where he excelled was midfield and attack...once that dried up (in the very later years) it just became poor performances.

Part of the mix is also the stadium move/lack of funds (as well as poor purchases) - we shouldn't ignore that we had a plan with the stadium but then the dirty Russian money came in and they started buying up all the best players and upsetting/stealing some of ours.

That Wenger managed to keep us in top 4 for so long during the stadium move is nothing short of a miracle...even Manure couldn't maintain the top 4 consistency and they had a smooth hand-over when Fergy retired and a bottomless pit of cash.

 

[krengon]

Oh my days.

It's a parody at this point

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

And as for his age. He was witty and eloquent at pressers. I used to love them and so did the journos.He was up at 5.30 ran on the treadmill, worked out, worked hard all day and ate a multitude of salads. Last year he played in an outdoor 11 a side match. I doubt many of the batch of current managers could match that bro. He should no sign of age related problems.

I'm not saying Arsène hasn't lived a very health conscious lifestyle and he's in really good shape for his age. That's undisputable. He could well be in better shape than me and I'm only 35!

He's not Superman though, he's a normal human being who's as prone to aging and getting stuck in their ways as everyone else, particularly when you've been in the same job for 20 years . Factor in a naturally high degree of stubbornness and it seems pretty obvious, at least to me, where most of the issues laid in his last 18 months or so.

 

[Makingtrax]

I'm not saying Arsène hasn't lived a very health conscious lifestyle and he's in really good shape for his age. That's undisputable. He could well be in better shape than me and I'm only 35!

He's not Superman though, he's a normal human being who's as prone to aging and getting stuck in their ways as everyone else, particularly when you've been in the same job for 20 years . Factor in a naturally high degree of stubbornness and it seems pretty obvious, at least to me, where most of the issues laid in his last 18 months or so.

Deep down everybody knows where the issue lay in the last 2 years. He was doing uncharacteristic things and making mistakes hand over fist.

It’s your opinion of course, but to me you’re the guy who’s still trying to puzzle out why your dependable car’s let you down even though it’s been hit by a juggernaut and lying in pieces.

 

[El Duderino]

Yeah, the Europa is a **** cup, but wanting us to drop out of it so the club can "reset" is the same line we heard of "It would be better to play Europa and get a trophy there" bandied around the latter Wenger years.

I rather be a punching bag for Bayerb in the UCL, tyvm.

 

[Sweet'n'Soulful]

Oh my days.

Yep, it was that bad. Football was dead. Look at the stadium the players were playing to, they were only slightly more full than they are now. The fans were done. But I guess that didn’t happen either...

 

[Rex Stone]

Yeah, the Europa is a **** cup, but wanting us to drop out of it so the club can "reset" is the same line we heard from the "It would be better to play Europa and get a trophy there" line bandied around the latter Wenger years.

I rather be a punching bag for Bayerb in the UCL, tyvm.

Also our self-sustaining model relies heavily on prize money. We’re already hammered with empty grounds and now we want no European money.

Just means even less money for future players.

Yep, it was that bad. Football was dead. Look at the stadium the players were playing to, they were slightly more full than they are now. But I guess that did t happen either..

What I don’t get though is that we were already winning FA Cups and getting to the latter stages of the EL under Wenger.

So it’s the same except we’re a lot sh*tter in the league now. Also have to say I’ve never seen football so dead in my time as an Arsenal fan as these days.

 

[Sweet'n'Soulful]

Deep down everybody knows where the issue lay in the last 2 years. He was doing uncharacteristic things and making mistakes hand over fist.

It’s your opinion of course, but to me you’re the guy who’s still trying to puzzle out why your dependable car’s let you down even though it’s been hit by a juggernaut and lying in pieces.

Was DT and Troopz moving the cones and talking over him at Colney?

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

Deep down everybody knows where the issue lay in the last 2 years. He was doing uncharacteristic things and making mistakes hand over fist.

It’s your opinion of course, but to me you’re the guy who’s still trying to puzzle out why your dependable car’s let you down even though it’s been hit by a juggernaut and lying in pieces.

Well if we're talking about the fan toxicity, banners, social media etc that's a bird hitting the windscreen to me, in terms of your analogy. It's not ideal and it's caused some minimal damage but it shouldn't write off an otherwise dependable car unless there are more fundamental issues with it.

 

[kash2]

And as for his age. He was witty and eloquent at pressers. I used to love them and so did the journos.He was up at 5.30 ran on the treadmill, worked out, worked hard all day and ate a multitude of salads. Last year he played in an outdoor 11 a side match. I doubt many of the batch of current managers could match that bro. He showed no sign of age related problems.

the fan thing wouldnt have been so impactful without the ownership encouraging it and wanting to undermine wenger.

Just because the rabid brexity incel whining was not the only reason, doesnt mean that it wasnt a big factor.

Another thing happened in mid 2018 - Kroenke took full control and Usmanov sold out.

2007 - Kroenke first purchase Arsenal shares taking almost 12%
2008 - Kroenke reaches 29% of shares and joins the board.
2011 - Kroenke crosses 50% share ownership

The period rom 2007 - 2018 is one of Wenger trying to work his magic, while the board were more interesting in selling off their shares, and Kroenke was more interested in the buying and then milking Arsenal.

This is a timeline of the downfall of Arsenal and its journey of becoming a walmart club, owned by a toupeed trumpist ****.

 

[Sweet'n'Soulful]

Also our self-sustaining model relies heavily on prize money. We’re already hammered with empty grounds and now we want no European money.

Just means even less money for future players.




What I don’t get though is that we were already winning FA Cups and getting to the latter stages of the EL under Wenger.

So it’s the same except we’re a lot sh*tter in the league now. Also have to say I’ve never seen football so dead in my time as an Arsenal fan as these days.

I dunno, run a survey among season ticket holders asking why they stayed away despite winning FA cups and getting to the latter stages of the EL (with aside more than capable of winning it, mind). Ask them if the likelihood of us continuing to decline in the league, but picking up another FA cup and going further than ever before in the EL is any worse... I don’t think they give a **** to be honest. I think they’d just be happy to have a different kind of hope. That’s obviously how a lot of fans felt. They were just tired of the same ****, identical every season, only finding new ways to fail.

Despite our league position, I’m 100 times more excited to watch our games these days compared to the last two years of Wenger. I feel more passionate about our results and the defeats hurt me far more than I can remember. A lot of fans feel like that as well. Despite our lower league position, We are strangely far less of a laughing stock these days. Very odd.

 

[kash2]

 

[kash2]

I dunno, run a survey among season ticket holders asking why they stayed away despite winning FA cups and getting to the latter stages of the EL (with aside more than capable of winning it, mind). Ask them if the likelihood of us continuing to decline in the league, but picking up another FA cup and going further than ever before in the EL is any worse... I don’t think they give a **** to be honest. I think they’d just be happy to have a different kind of hope. That’s obviously how a lot of fans felt. They were just tired of the same ****, identical every season, only finding new ways to fail.

Despite our league position, I’m 100 times more excited to watch our games these days compared to the last two years of Wenger. I feel more passionate about our results and the defeats hurt me far more than I can remember. A lot of fans feel like that as well. Despite our lower league position, We are strangely far less of a laughing stock these days. Very odd.