Mikel Arteta: Aston La Vista To The Title?

[Gunner D]

Give me a declining Wenger over ‘Super Mik’ any day. Couldn’t give a toss about his sh*tty project and ‘changing the culture’. Tbf he’s changing the culture, by lowering all expectations and taking us backwards.

Imagine blaming Wenger for Mikel being a b*m. Has the world gone f*cking nuts?

Wenger left ages ago. Arteta d*ckriders will literally use any excuse in the book to absolve Mikel from any blame. Sickening.

Close to cracking here.

 

[Mrs Bergkamp]

1) Have no idea how you can make a good, or convincing argument for this, tbh.
2) How does that make any sense, given the data I present above? Really a quite confusing statement, tbh.

Wenger finished 6th in his last season and Emery finished 5th and got us to a final. That's stability and slight improvement despite the flaws.
You've provided a lot of stats but the table doesn't lie. If I take your view then Arteta inherited a very poor team and improved it-statistically anyway. We concede more, score less, create less than we ever have and 80 percent of the time have been unwatchable. Finishing 8th in his first season I'll let pass. In his second season, I call it unacceptable. To be in the position to finish 4th and blow it, beyond my comprehension.
We'll agree to disagree but stats won't blind me from what's actually happening. You conveniently ignored my other points.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

Wenger finished 6th in his last season and Emery finished 5th and got us to a final. That's stability and slight improvement despite the flaws.
You've provided a lot of stats but the table doesn't lie. If I take your view then Arteta inherited a very poor team and improved it-statistically anyway. We concede more, score less, create less than we ever have and 80 percent of the time have been unwatchable. Finishing 8th in his first season I'll let pass. In his second season, I call it unacceptable. To be in the position to finish 4th and blow it, beyond my comprehension.
We'll agree to disagree but stats won't blind me from what's actually happening. You conveniently ignored my other points.

I haven't really ignored any of your points.

The fact is, in 18-19 Wenger left a team that was performing at 1.75 xPTS per game and declining from the season prior.

The season after Em*ry averaged 1.55 xPTS per game, before taking it to 1.23 xPTS per game the season after. Arteta took the same team he had picked up at 1.23 xPTS/g to 1.32 xPTS per game.

The season after he took it to 1.54 xPTS per game.

The season after he is so far at 1.67 xPTS per game (we were at Wenger's level of 1.75 xPTS per game before Sp*rs and Newcastle, let's see where we finish after our final home game vs. Everton).



Like I said, all we saw from Wenger to Em*ry was decline, and all we have seen since is a reversal in that decline and steady progress.* It is also undeniable that decline was already occurring from year to year under Wenger himself.

Whether that progress is rapid enough is the big question. I have big questions about that myself, and that is where all the debate should really be occurring, IMO, if this thread were a bit more reasonable and interesting place to be in.

But the above statement (with a *) really shouldn't have too much debate...

 

[yorch44]

Stats: we are between the worst in big chances created, we received more goals this season after 80M investment in the defense, and we are in mid table in points after Christmas this year.

The process!

 

[Mrs Bergkamp]

I haven't really ignored any of your points.

The fact is, in 18-19 Wenger left a team that was performing at 1.75 xPTS per game and declining from the season prior.

The season after Em*ry averaged 1.55 xPTS per game, before taking it to 1.23 xPTS per game the season after. Arteta took the same team he had picked up at 1.23 xPTS/g to 1.32 xPTS per game.

The season after he took it to 1.54 xPTS per game.

The season after he is so far at 1.67 xPTS per game (we were at Wenger's level of 1.75 xPTS per game before Sp*rs and Newcastle, let's see where we finish after our final home game vs. Everton).



Like I said, all we saw from Wenger to Em*ry was decline, and all we have seen since is a reversal in that decline and steady progress.* It is also undeniable that decline was already occurring from year to year under Wenger himself.

Whether that progress is rapid enough is the big question. I have big questions about that myself, and that is where all the debate should really be occurring, IMO, if this thread were a bit more reasonable and interesting place to be in.

But the above statement (with a *) really shouldn't have too much debate...

It's the above statement with * that is up for debate no matter what you think. Arteta's points total becomes largely irrelevant if our league position doesn't improve. It will after this season but that's after two embarrassing seasons. Lucky for him that Emery dragged us in to the gutter statistically. As for steady progress, you can't ignore the number of goals scored and conceded and chances created along with all the negative records he's broken. Those important factors are still poor 2.5 years on. That's not really progress and we've spent a lot to improve. The players have played to their max which is partly why we are in this position but like Auba's 2020 xg, that's not sustainable. You may be proved right in two years time after we've spent £500m but I disagree with your perspective atm

 

[El Duderino]

The table at the end of the season > expected points.

 

[Fallout]

1) Have no idea how you can make a good, or convincing argument for this, tbh.
2) How does that make any sense, given the data I present above? Really a quite confusing statement, tbh.

What's really telling for me is that all of the people pushing the anti-Arteta agenda magically airbrush Em*ry's 19-20 performance or the actual state of the club when Arteta picked it up was (which is of course, directly related to Em*ry's 19-20 performance). It's really, really quite baffling to me, and amazing that people can feel comfortable completely comfortable removing such massively relevant and signficant inputs from the argument, and feeling that their argument is still coherent.

To me, like I say, it's really quite telling, and can tell you a good deal about who is a serious poster, who is someone really considering the facts and the argument, and who is just looking to confirm their biases and pre-conceived feelings.

Anyways, typical of my arguments in these threads, I started mentioning a major concern about Arteta (how we can be dominated so roundly by lower sides like Palace, Brighton, or Newcastle in full halves), to offering counter-arguments to radical arguments that are rather hard to accept or give any reasonable support. Which is typically what happens. It is hard to have any kind of interesting discussion when it is foam at the mouth times in this thread, or really even in the best of times.

Agree. For me the improvement has been noticeable across a number of dimensions -- because at the end of Emery's spell we were at rock bottom in our playing style, squad composition, unity in dressing room, results. Truly a state that inspired no hope.

Now we are on an upward trend and it doesn't take a lot of mental gymnastics to visualize how we can keep improving to continue the trend. Still a lot of uncertainty re: whether we will actually manage to do that next season, but there is a platform and a logical next step.

None of the above is said to excuse Arteta's mistakes because there are clearly mistakes, and we obviously threw away an opportunity in a soul crushing manner.

One can argue whether that by itself should disqualify Arteta from continuing to lead the project (and that's a reasonable argument to have), but I agree it's disingenuous to argue that nothing has been accomplished in the last 3 years and we are no better off.

Personally I think Arteta should get sacked when the trend either plateaus for an extended period or even worse reverses, but that's just me.

I also think this fanbase has been so battered by our history of poor refereeing decisions that we've just internalized the lot of them, even though numerous stats have been posted on this board to show that we get unfair treatment, and the Sp**s match just reeked of something rotten to me. I wish we as a fanbase directed equal anger at the Premier League as we do at our own team because we are frequently fighting uphill battles when other clubs manage to get away with a lot more. I'm thinking particularly of that Scott McTominay compilation that I've seen a few times on here.

 

[DUFFMAN]

Agree. For me the improvement has been noticeable across a number of dimensions -- because at the end of Emery's spell we were at rock bottom in our playing style, squad composition, unity in dressing room, results. Truly a state that inspired no hope.

Now we are on an upward trend and it doesn't take a lot of mental gymnastics to visualize how we can keep improving to continue the trend. Still a lot of uncertainty re: whether we will actually manage to do that next season, but there is a platform and a logical next step.

None of the above is said to excuse Arteta's mistakes because there are clearly mistakes, and we obviously threw away an opportunity in a soul crushing manner.

One can argue whether that by itself should disqualify Arteta from continuing to lead the project (and that's a reasonable argument to have), but I agree it's disingenuous to argue that nothing has been accomplished in the last 3 years and we are no better off.

Personally I think Arteta should get sacked when the trend either plateaus for an extended period or even worse reverses, but that's just me.

I also think this fanbase has been so battered by our history of poor refereeing decisions that we've just internalized the lot of them, even though numerous stats have been posted on this board to show that we get unfair treatment, and the Sp**s match just reeked of something rotten to me. I wish we as a fanbase directed equal anger at the Premier League as we do at our own team because we are frequently fighting uphill battles when other clubs manage to get away with a lot more. I'm thinking particularly of that Scott McTominay compilation that I've seen a few times on here.

Just show me other times teams got the same treatment as

An opposition player stamping on a players head and no booking.

Two yellow cards in the space of 30 seconds.

Foul throws, tell me any time you have seen a ref blow up for a foul throw when it’s not Arsenal?

Tonight 6 times players “eased” the forward off the ball( commentators words) like Cedric on Son, no penalty.

Deliberate elbows to the head when both players on the ground and not even a yellow?

 

[Farzad Stoned]

1) Have no idea how you can make a good, or convincing argument for this, tbh.
2) How does that make any sense, given the data I present above? Really a quite confusing statement, tbh.

What's really telling for me is that all of the people pushing the anti-Arteta agenda magically airbrush Em*ry's 19-20 performance or the actual state of the club when Arteta picked it up was (which is of course, directly related to Em*ry's 19-20 performance). It's really, really quite baffling to me, and amazing that people can feel comfortable completely comfortable removing such massively relevant and signficant inputs from the argument, and feeling that their argument is still coherent.

To me, like I say, it's really quite telling, and can tell you a good deal about who is a serious poster, who is someone really considering the facts and the argument, and who is just looking to confirm their biases and pre-conceived feelings.

Anyways, typical of my arguments in these threads, I started mentioning a major concern about Arteta (how we can be dominated so roundly by lower sides like Palace, Brighton, or Newcastle in full halves), to offering counter-arguments to radical arguments that are rather hard to accept or give any reasonable support. Which is typically what happens. It is hard to have any kind of interesting discussion when it is foam at the mouth times in this thread, or really even in the best of times.

It is a matter of return on investment. We have spent unprecedented levels for Arsenal football club., in return on that investment what have we got? Ok from 8 to 5th with near unwatchable football and a historic collapse due to rank managerial incompetence. Making sure that you have enough quality bodies to finish a season when you have no other competitions is inexcusable. This 2 and half years in and he is still bungling coaching 101.

The question isn’t has he improved the squad the question is one of opportunity cost, how much would we have improved with Tuchel or Conte or any top level experienced manager improved Arsenal with 285 million pounds and 2 and a half years time? That is the real question

 

[Farzad Stoned]

Stats: we are between the worst in big chances created, we received more goals this season after 80M investment in the defense, and we are in mid table in points after Christmas this year.

The process!

If the process continues for another few years we will be celebrating to staying up on the last day of the season and Mik fans will demand London be shut down so we can hold a parade. Celebrate Europa qualification? Abysmal that is all we have to show for after the position we were in and in the manner of the loss with Arteta botching basic coaching and making sure had enough able bodied with zero other competitions involved is criminal coaching

 

[Kav]

EVERYTHING I have been saying has come to be. Could be more right if I tried.

Oh really? What about below?

Wenger was about enforcing his team and style on you, and at its peak it was the most beautiful and iconic sight in Europe, think Arteta is building up to that, but it’s exciting to see a manager with ability to nullify opponents.

You thought that kind of football was exciting…

What a great manager we have. His coaching is top notch.

Arteta has never been great nor too anything.

If Wenger had non negotiables maybe he would’ve won more?

But Wenger was a money grabbing, soft, relaxed, lazy, idealistic manager, that’s why he’s not a legend.

Wow you really were knee deep in the tetasexual life.

I’m limiting my expectations, but because we have a rookie manager and no money. Not because I think there is some process taking place.

I know there is no process taking place, we are one of the worst run clubs in the PL.

Turn out we did have money and the process was to reduce Arsenal’s standing not improve it.

He’s better than Ole. Has your manager even scored against Arsenal? Arteta has won something too.

Ole is being carried by his superpower squad.

Hahahaha you genuinely believed he was better than Ole?

I respect that you’re not afraid to have an opinion outside the box but you have been wrong on so many occasions. Should I quote you some more?

 

[celestis]

It's Sp**s. They are trying to find a name for our bottling tendencies but they already have Sp**s being Spursy, I refuse to put it past them.

Mate .. we are more spursy than Sp**s . Imperative we win against Everton though whatever happens .

 

[Holdingisthebest]

The rebuild was initiated in the summer of 2020 according to Edu. Thats 2 years ago so that Reddit prat is talking nonsense.

that reddit sub consists of the worst arsenal fans. Reading those comments gave me nausea, thank god. i got banned from that sub by a artetasexual mod

 

[Haphazard]

What progress has been made?

From 8th to 5th sure, but thats not actual progress we are back at the point of Emery's first season where we finished 5th with 70 points.

Has our football improved? we rely on set pieces/deflected goals a lot. We are 17th for chances created our attack and defence from last season are practically identical after over 100m in investment. I keep bringing it up again but failure to score in 25% of matches and a 35% loss rate is a HUGE red flag.

In front of us so many managers of teams have come in, instilled a style that you can immediately identify regardless of the players. Only Arteta gets the excuse of his own players. Hell this season he pretty much has extended or signed off on every player in the squad and we still play horrific football.

He talked about culture change, the only culture change is our idiotic fanbase lowering their standards to give him endless excuses for his failures. He just wants players that won't challenge him and have timid personalities which is why it's no surprise that we crumble and the slightest bit of pressure. He can't handle big players because big players will always have some ego and when you don't have big players you can forget about challenging for the top.

The only reason he is so protected is because our idiot DOF and CEO are equally clueless. We are basically being run by the 3 stooges but they have invested in good PR which we see in the athletic and other publications and using our legends to make it seem like there is some grand master plan and since Mikel can speak well it impresses the board/owner who have no idea what it takes to be a successful football club.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

The question isn’t has he improved the squad the question is one of opportunity cost, how much would we have improved with Tuchel or Conte or any top level experienced manager improved Arsenal with 285 million pounds and 2 and a half years time? That is the real question

Exactly. That is precisely, as I say, where the debate should occur, if this thread were a more reasonable place to be in:

Whether that progress is rapid enough is the big question. I have big questions about that myself, and that is where all the debate should really be occurring, IMO, if this thread were a bit more reasonable and interesting place to be in.

Instead of wasting time on stuff that is relatively obvious, that is the stuff that should be debated. But it is hard when people are just obsessed with foaming at the mouth, can't recognise the relatively obvious, and we can never get to the more interesting, debatable stuff.

 

[Makingtrax]

Lads, Artetasexuals are now claiming the rebuild only began this year and you should blame Wenger for us finishing 8th place last season.
@Makingtrax @Macho @SA Gunner @grange

Sauce:

Neither Unai, nor Wenger facing a toxic fan base, came 8th. Arteta's averaged 7th over 3 seasons.

Mari, Cedric, Runarsson, Willian, Lokonga, Tavares etc are no better than those Unai or Wenger bought. I suggest he cleans up his own sh!t.

 

[Makingtrax]

@Makingtrax What do you think of the length? I figure this can pass the New Yorker's rigorous submission process

@AbouCuéllar 's recent posts may pass their length test, but their bollocksometer would be flagging up a no no for publication. Bet Fox News would have him on though.

 

[dka1]

Tbh and joking aside I find it a little difficult to blame Tets entirely for 19/20.

I think a lot of people are forgetting just how bad we looked towards the end of Emery's reign and had he finished the season at the helm we'd have probably ended up around 10th or maybe lower (provided things didn't pick up).

Also we were so poor defensively and I remember Watford I think it was had a ridiculous amount of shots against us in the 2 - 2 game, and it was a pattern under Emery as well.

Plus weren't a lot of people commenting on how flukey the 18/19 season was? I remember that being a general theme by the time Emery was leaving because that stat kept coming up that we were greatly out scoring our xG and that we'd eventually pay for it.

That said 70 points is 70 points regardless of the other stats, so you have to give Emery credit for that and it's better than anything Arteta has achieved so far.

But yeah....so 19/20 I'm more forgiving of Arteta because we were in a bad place when he took over, a very bad place. I still maintain that he could've gotten more out of a lot of the players he inherited but that's a whole nother rant.

No blame can lay at Wenger's feet for anything happening now though, I don't even need to expand on that; he left four years ago so it's all on the current mandem running the show.

 

[Sapient Hawk]

@AbouCuéllar 's recent posts may pass their length test, but their bollocksometer would be flagging up a no no for publication. Bet Fox News would have him on though.

Imagine him writing for Sean Hannity!

I don't think Musk can construct starships fast enough for me to escape the solar system

 

[Makingtrax]

Agree. For me the improvement has been noticeable across a number of dimensions -- because at the end of Emery's spell we were at rock bottom in our playing style, squad composition, unity in dressing room, results. Truly a state that inspired no hope.

Ha ha. 'Dimensions', what footballing metric is that? The only way this guy can be supported is to make some vague suggestion of improvement, because his metrics have been poor since he came here. And of course to over exaggerate Unai's or Wenger's position as being poor, even though neither of them came 8th.

He hasn't improved our defence, we can't score for sh!t, some very good players have gone backwards and it's dull football.