Mikel Arteta: Aston La Vista To The Title?

[Trilly]

Didn’t Klopp get top 4 with the likes of Clyne, Toure, Skrtel, Moreno, Lallana, Ibe, Allen, Lucas, Origi and Benteke as regulars?

He managed to work with what he had initially tbf.

If we compare Arteta and Klopp one or two years in then Arteta fails terribly. So bad that he should have been sacked tbh but we’re past that now, it is what it is.

The convo has changed now and consensus seems to be that Mikel is a ‘needs his players’ manager rather than someone who will work with what he has. Fine.

He’s been afforded that patience and money and it’s time to deliver like that type of manager now. I’m not really trying to hear excuses this year, I want close to 80 points, good football, good use of the squad and so on.

 

[Deleted member 102404]

Think Mikel has now spent the same amount as Liverpool (did since Klopp’s arrival) just before they became a serious threat. I don’t know the exact specifics but 300M in and Klopp was challenging for titles and getting to CL finals.

Compare what we do this season to what Liverpool did 300M into their project and the difference in outcomes is roughly the difference between Mikel and Klopp.

For me if that difference is too big then he’s not the right man for the job, not atm anyway.

Where Liverpool were as a squad vs where we were as a squad when the respective managers took over matters a lot to any comparison. Klopp also spent about 70m more than Arteta has done in his first 3 years, though Klopp had Coutinho to sell to claw back over £120m of that.

 

[samspade]

If he's being compared to Klopp he must be doing pretty well

 

[shoom]

If we compare Arteta and Klopp one or two years in then Arteta fails terribly. So bad that he should have been sacked tbh but we’re past that now, it is what it is.

The convo has changed now and consensus seems to be that Mikel is a ‘needs his players’ manager rather than someone who will work with what he has. Fine.

He’s been afforded that patience and money and it’s time to deliver like that type of manager now. I’m not really trying to hear excuses this year, I want close to 80 points, good football, good use of the squad and so on.

He also needs to extend and develop our young talents. If they don't believe in 'the project' then we'll be back to square one. If he manages all of that I'll be a believer.

 

[2Smokeyy]

He’s been afforded that patience and money and it’s time to deliver like that type of manager now. I’m not really trying to hear excuses this year, I want close to 80 points, good football, good use of the squad and so on.

Tbf it’s a common theme amongst football fans to use the excuse - “the manager needs his players in order to prosper” which even the Utd fans I know have been using too. Honestly speaking, I think it’s a complete cop out whenever I hear it being used. In my book, a good manager is able to work with whatever he’s given especially given the fact that fans have lowered their expectations and it isn’t a title challenge that fans are demanding but just good football and a top 4 finish.

Only recently in football have I heard terms like “free hit” and “the manager needs his own players” being used so frequently by fans and the majority of them diverting the full blame towards the owners/DOF when they’re not the ones picking the team week in, week out.

 

[El Duderino]

Wait where’s Rasmi?

And who’s Riou? I thought it was @Poou?

Think Rasmis ban is done in a couple of weeks.

Hooray.

 

[pigge]

Tbf it’s a common theme amongst football fans to use the excuse - “the manager needs his players in order to prosper” which even the Utd fans I know have been using too. Honestly speaking, I think it’s a complete cop out whenever I hear it being used as in my book, a good manager is able to work with whatever he’s given especially given the fact that fans have lowered their expectations and it isn’t a title challenge that fans are demanding but just good football and a top 4 finish.

Only recently in football have I heard terms like “free hit” and “the manager needs his own players” being used so frequently by fans and majority of them diverting the full blame towards the owners/DOF when they’re not the ones picking the team week in, week out.

I mean, you could have a vision as a trainer to build a team that plays a certain type of way. If guardiola got Crystal Palace he would get top 4?. It's obvious a manager needs players playing the style he is best at coaching/understanding to make a team great. I'd say Harry Redknapp and the likes are people that might make a team better, but not great.

There is also a big difference in making a club a top club, vs just gettings a few positions better in the table.
We have changed staff from the top management of the club down to medical positions in the last 6 years or so. and we've had a few interim managers until Arteta. I believe rebuilding takes a lot of time and patience. Klopp took 4 years to win PL. And he kind of fluked with Salah becoming the best player in the league since ronaldo.

Look at united, haven't done **** in 10 years, and they have had managers most people here respect. Look at Sp**s.

The two clubs doing best right now are the once that got the longest standing managers. (And a bit of money). It takes time, 2,5 years ain't much. He still got 2 years to win league to beat klopp.

 

[Macho]

If he's being compared to Klopp he must be doing pretty well

It's more there aren't that many managers who have been given this amount of time or backing to compare him to.

Think this argument is unnecessary today anyways, as things stand it's actually looking good brev.

 

[Deleted member 102404]

Tbf it’s a common theme amongst football fans to use the excuse - “the manager needs his players in order to prosper” which even the Utd fans I know have been using too. Honestly speaking, I think it’s a complete cop out whenever I hear it being used. In my book, a good manager is able to work with whatever he’s given especially given the fact that fans have lowered their expectations and it isn’t a title challenge that fans are demanding but just good football and a top 4 finish.

Only recently in football have I heard terms like “free hit” and “the manager needs his own players” being used so frequently by fans and the majority of them diverting the full blame towards the owners/DOF when they’re not the ones picking the team week in, week out.

True to an extent but it’s not absolute.
For example, if Klopp was given the Norwich squad he’d have been relegated most likely. He certainly wouldn’t have been top 4.
Working with what you’ve got can only be successful if what you’ve got is a good side. No manager can turn water into wine.

Debatable whether the side Arteta inherited should have been able to get top 4, but keep in mind neither Emery or Wenger were able to get top 4 with that group of players.

 

[samspade]

It's more there aren't that many managers who have been given this amount of time or backing to compare him to.

Think this argument is unnecessary today anyways, as things stand it's actually looking good brev.

Obviously Klopp’s ahead. This is Arteta’s first ever job though and he’s 40.

If it wasn’t for Auba and the yellow box player I’d be happy as Larry.

 

[Trilly]

Liverpool work quite well as a benchmark for judging the process as their squad was also a mess with loads of players that just weren't good enough and had to be moved on.

Spoiler: Klopp v Arteta Timeline

Pilot: Mikel actually matches (or betters) Klopp in terms of their first half season. Mikel won the FA Cup while Klopp reached and lost the EL and EFL cup finals.

Season 1: Klopp spends 71M Arteta spends 77M
Klopp's first full season they qualified for the CL with 76 points. Arteta spent 77M and we know how that ended. Obviously one guy is world class and the other was a novice so you kind of ignore the difference in outcome. Should mention that Liverpool had no European football which played a big part in them getting to fourth.

Season 2: Klopp spends 156M Arteta spends 150M.
We're now two full seasons and 220M in. Klopp reaches the CL final in their debut season but doesn't actually improve in the league, still maintains 4th though with 75 points. We finish 5th with 69 points and no European competition or deep cup runs.

Season 3: Klopp spends 164M Arteta spends 119M (and counting).
I'm gonna assume that we sign another player or two. That takes both managers to three years in and about 400M spent. Klopp S3 was a thing of beauty, game of thrones levels, 97 points in the league and a CL win.

Obviously Klopp is the benchmark and trying to match him is like like trying to match the first season of Prison Break but still we could have been closer.

400M spent and three full seasons is a lot by anyone's standards now. If Klopp S3 ended with 97 points and a CL final then expecting ~80 points and maybe a cup final for Arteta S3 is completely fair for an Arsenal manager. The rookie excuses don't really cut it, at some point you have to sink or swim.

 

[Trilly]

Where Liverpool were as a squad vs where we were as a squad when the respective managers took over matters a lot to any comparison. Klopp also spent about 70m more than Arteta has done in his first 3 years, though Klopp had Coutinho to sell to claw back over £120m of that.

False on....all counts I believe. Check previous posts.
Trust me they took over similar squads, if you don't believe me feel free to have a look at Liverpool's squad entering the 16/17 season and compare it to our squad entering the 19/20 season. You could argue that ours was better if anything.
I'm also only looking at gross spend not net spend so Coutinho is completely irrelevant.

 

[2Smokeyy]

I mean, you could have a vision as a trainer to build a team that plays a certain type of way. If guardiola got Crystal Palace he would get top 4?. It's obvious a manager needs players playing the style he is best at coaching/understanding to make a team great. I'd say Harry Redknapp and the likes are people that might make a team better, but not great.

I understand your point but there’s a massive difference between competing for the PL title and finishing in the top 4. To compete with an oil/state run club like City for the league, investment is mandatory. I did mention that in my post that fans have naturally lowered expectations:

Work with whatever he’s given especially given the fact that fans have lowered their expectations and it isn’t a title challenge that fans are demanding but just good football and a top 4 finish.

This is one of the main reasons why I don’t rate Pep as highly as some try and make him out to be, he’s literally a chequebook manager as others have stated in the past - there’s nothing wrong with that but if I was given the choice between Pep or Klopp to manage Arsenal, I’d be going for Klopp. I’d say it’s more a personal preference as I grew up on AW and Klopp is in that similar mould whereby he’s able to get the best out of what he has available.

Look at united, haven't done **** in 10 years, and they have had managers most people here respect. Look at Sp**s.

The two clubs doing best right now are the once that got the longest standing managers. (And a bit of money). It takes time, 2,5 years ain't much. He still got 2 years to win league to beat klopp.

Those clubs you’ve mentioned about are just following the trend in modern day football whereby short-termism is what most clubs around Europe are doing until they hit jackpot, eventually it’ll work out for them. Chelsea have been very successful adopting that same strategy and have won a European Cup in doing so. It remains to be seen what Conte will do at Sp**s but so far, it’s been a success. Lad came in half way through the season and secured CL football after the mess Nuno Espírito Santos left.

There is also a big difference in making a club a top club, vs just gettings a few positions better in the table.
We have changed staff from the top management of the club down to medical positions in the last 6 years or so. and we've had a few interim managers until Arteta. I believe rebuilding takes a lot of time and patience. Klopp took 4 years to win PL. And he kind of fluked with Salah becoming the best player in the league since ronaldo.

I wouldn’t really class that Salah signing as a fluke. Just look at their strike rate in the lead up to the PL title they won, pretty much every signing they were making was bang on the money. Sadio Mane, Fabinho, VVD, Alisson, Robertson, Wijnaldum, Matip etc that’s an immense strike rate. It’s more to do with their analytics team working wonders imo.

 

[OnlyOne]

Liverpool work quite well as a benchmark for judging the process as their squad was also a mess with loads of players that just weren't good enough and had to be moved on.

Spoiler: Klopp v Arteta Timeline

Pilot: Mikel actually matches (or betters) Klopp in terms of their first half season. Mikel won the FA Cup while Klopp reached and lost the EL and EFL cup finals.

Season 1: Klopp spends 71M Arteta spends 77M
Klopp's first full season they qualified for the CL with 76 points. Arteta spent 77M and we know how that ended. Obviously one guy is world class and the other was a novice so you kind of ignore the difference in outcome. Should mention that Liverpool had no European football which played a big part in them getting to fourth.

Season 2: Klopp spends 156M Arteta spends 150M.
We're now two full seasons and 220M in. Klopp reaches the CL final in their debut season but doesn't actually improve in the league, still maintains 4th though with 75 points. We finish 5th with 69 points and no European competition or deep cup runs.

Season 3: Klopp spends 164M Arteta spends 119M (and counting).
I'm gonna assume that we sign another player or two. That takes both managers to three years in and about 400M spent. Klopp S3 was a thing of beauty, game of thrones levels, 97 points in the league and a CL win.

Obviously Klopp is the benchmark and trying to match him is like like trying to match the first season of Prison Break but still we could have been closer.

400M spent and three full seasons is a lot by anyone's standards now. If Pool S3 ends with 97 points and a CL final then expecting ~80 points and maybe a cup final for Arteta S3 is completely fair for an Arsenal manager. The rookie excuses don't really cut it, at some point you have to sink or swim.

 

[Trilly]

When I saw the notification I could have bet my life on it not being a serious response. Interested to hear your thoughts though.

You rarely bless us with your ball knowledge, sir.

 

[OnlyOne]

When I saw the notification I could have bet my life on it not being a serious response. Interested to hear your thoughts though.

You rarely bless us with your ball knowledge, sir.

I've really started to digress into full-time troll/sh*t poster annoying person on this forum rather than sharing my expert ball knowledge which people know I possess. Don't know what's happened to me, I can't take football seriously at the minute. There's not a chance I'd read your post but you deserve the respect of me reading it.

 

[Deleted member 102404]

False on....all counts I believe. Check previous posts.
Trust me they took over similar squads, if you don't believe me feel free to have a look at Liverpool's squad entering the 16/17 season and compare it to our squad entering the 19/20 season. You could argue that ours was better if anything.
I'm also only looking at gross spend not net spend so Coutinho is completely irrelevant.

Gross spend, Klopp spent c£400m, Arteta c£350m in the first 3 years.

According to transfermarkt
Klopp
16/17 - 72m
17/18 - 156m
18/19 - 164m
Total - 392m
Arteta
20/21 - 77m
21/22 - 151m
22/23 - 119m
Total - 347m

so more like £50m less than Klopp.

As for squad strength when they took over, pointless debate as it's subjective.
I think our squad need a massive overhaul, you think Liverpools was worse - /shrugs.

 

[2Smokeyy]

True to an extent but it’s not absolute.
For example, if Klopp was given the Norwich squad he’d have been relegated most likely. He certainly wouldn’t have been top 4.
Working with what you’ve got can only be successful if what you’ve got is a good side. No manager can turn water into wine.

Debatable whether the side Arteta inherited should have been able to get top 4, but keep in mind neither Emery or Wenger were able to get top 4 with that group of players.

Arsène Wenger was doing that for years tbf.

Like I said previously, Klopp got top 4 with the likes of Clyne, Toure, Skrtel, Moreno, Lallana, Ibe, Allen, Lucas, Origi and Benteke as regulars too. So, it isn’t unheard of.

There are managers capable of doing so but Arteta isn’t that type of manager. Anyways, I doubt there will be any complaints if he gets us top 4 using his current strategy whether it’ll actually happen is another question.

 

[CaseUteinberger]

Their PR is weak.

Sad...

 

[Xln]

Liverpool work quite well as a benchmark for judging the process as their squad was also a mess with loads of players that just weren't good enough and had to be moved on.

Spoiler: Klopp v Arteta Timeline

Pilot: Mikel actually matches (or betters) Klopp in terms of their first half season. Mikel won the FA Cup while Klopp reached and lost the EL and EFL cup finals.

Season 1: Klopp spends 71M Arteta spends 77M
Klopp's first full season they qualified for the CL with 76 points. Arteta spent 77M and we know how that ended. Obviously one guy is world class and the other was a novice so you kind of ignore the difference in outcome. Should mention that Liverpool had no European football which played a big part in them getting to fourth.

Season 2: Klopp spends 156M Arteta spends 150M.
We're now two full seasons and 220M in. Klopp reaches the CL final in their debut season but doesn't actually improve in the league, still maintains 4th though with 75 points. We finish 5th with 69 points and no European competition or deep cup runs.

Season 3: Klopp spends 164M Arteta spends 119M (and counting).
I'm gonna assume that we sign another player or two. That takes both managers to three years in and about 400M spent. Klopp S3 was a thing of beauty, game of thrones levels, 97 points in the league and a CL win.

Obviously Klopp is the benchmark and trying to match him is like like trying to match the first season of Prison Break but still we could have been closer.

400M spent and three full seasons is a lot by anyone's standards now. If Klopp S3 ended with 97 points and a CL final then expecting ~80 points and maybe a cup final for Arteta S3 is completely fair for an Arsenal manager. The rookie excuses don't really cut it, at some point you have to sink or swim.

Add in that prices for players increase over the years as well