Arsenal Can't Afford World's Best Players

[flobaba]

Pissing down your neck, telling you its raining.. lol

 

[russkiegooner]

We don't have huge cash reserves, £30-40m at a push, that's accepted by almost all Arsenal fans.

The statements say nearly 100m as of end of May 2009. It's a 'photo shoot' though, of course, and the picture is a bit distorted at the end of May for obvious reasons... Where does you estimate of 30-40m come from, Ricky? I suppose you're talking about the current situation.

 

[Captain]

To be fair, even £30-40M is a huge cash reserve that shouldn't limit you signing players.

The simple fact is that Wenger doesn't believe that anyone but the absolute best players (Ronaldo, Messi, Rooney etc.) are better than what we already have so he isn't going to lay out £15-25M on anybody, anytime soon. Whether you think that is wise or folly probably comes down to how great you think Wenger is at judging the ability of his own players.

 

[outlaw_member]

One thing people fail to factor in when determining whether a certain amount of money was sufficient enough to buy certain players (provided you accept the possibility of tightened purse strings, I know I don't) is Wenger's prowess in the transfer market and his ability to get value for money. Therefore, Wenger has never needed as much as Chelsea or United because he is able to bridge the financial gap, via a better scouting system and judgement of talent.

 

[asajoseph]

I don't know how you can't see it - often, Wenger's spent money 6 months too late.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

So, according to Elrico's stats, we have the best value squad in the league!

 

[ultradoc]

I'm happy that finally he has come out and stated this. That is all I wanted. To stop bullshitting fans. Now I can not be as disappointed about transfers at least.
I have a few questions though..when will we have that level of finances to buy great players when you need them.? when will this emirates project/debt end?

Look at what happened [in the January transfer window]. Give me one big move. Zero. People ask me, ‘Why do you not buy a great striker?’ Tell me one who has moved from one club to another. Not one.

What does that mean? Perhaps chelseas, manures didn't buy strikers cos they already have them fit and fine and are on top of the league.

And I think now we can rest with the fact that wenger's not going anywhere anytime soon. All the failures are now openly attributed to our lack of money,so any grounds for his ouster remaining?

 

[russkiegooner]

Whether you think that is wise or folly probably comes down to how great you think Wenger is at judging the ability of his own players.

It's not about 'thinking' something of Wenger's judgement, to be honest. It's about our ambitions and the results that are (and have been) produced by the current policy. However, this has been happening in a certain context that we struggle to appreciate. If Wenger is severely limited as to what he can (or rather cannot) spend, then we shouldn't complain about our third spot, really. It's a good result, given our financial capacity as compared to the EPL and some other European clubs that we're directly competing with. Money is not everything in modern football, but one can't seriously affirm that it does not matter. If the current policy on the stranfer market stems only from Wenger's vision and his judgement regarding 'the ability of his own players', as you put it, then, there's no 'thinking' there, just facts: the results have not been satisfactory for a club of our stature. They are not because it looks pretty much like another trophyless season, and many fans are starting to get impatient, not to say frustrated.

 

[irishgunnerz]

I think people are really reading what they want to in his statement. he said we cant afford world class players. Whats new or shocking about that?

We all knew it.

I agree his statements are contradictory, I agree with those who feel he did need to do better with the resources he did have to hand and that in improvements could be made with two x 15m signings for example - but dear lord, some people have no idea about what happens in the real life.

For example the person claiming we have the funds "per our financials" to buy not just one, but two "world class players". Two no less!

First of all, how do you define a world class player? How many World Class players are they out there? How much did Ronaldo cost? How much would true World Class players like Ribery, Messi, Buffon cost? It's pretty obvious that we cant afford them.

Looking at the past season or two the likes of Berbatov, Tevez & Adebayor have gone for 23-30m each and all with wages of at least 120k a week. None are what you would call World Class are they? Yet the total cost for them over a four year contract is roughly 55m each. For one player. And we've possibly two or three areas that need strengthening

People seem to be working under the illusion that players would be willing to play for less for us than they would elsewhere. Andrei did it - but would he have played for less with us if other teams at our level paid more?

Del Boy "They do want that, I think it is just best to ignore them. Wenger is the messiah and we can't afford a 10m pound signing or wages half of what any other team pay"

Nobody has said that - anywhere in this thread. What people have pointed out - and it's like talking to the wall - is that we dont have money for World Class players and that even if we had the money for their signing fee, we certainly dont have it for the wages. It's not that difficult a concept but DB, you seem to be struggling a bit with it.

Del Boy"Despite the fact we pay some of the highest ticket prices in the world, have sold rights to our stadium, rake in nearly the highest matchday turnover in the world and sell our best players every summer for massive fees.""

Yup and as I've said, despite all that, are we filthy stinking rich? No. Looking at our books and records, do we have a debt free balance sheet and a big pot of cash to blow? No. Can we compete with the wages on offer at Chelsea, Madrid, City, United yet? No. Once the debt is more manageable, certainly, we will reap the rewards, but these things dont happen overnight. Your attitude seriously simplistic without taking into account any of the variables or actual solid realities.

Del Boy "How dare anyone think another manager could do a better job than Wenger... "

I'm guessing sarcasm is the highest form of wit you can reach for but for the rest of us, its the lowest - back up an argument with facts or at least rational thought or to be honest any post on such a topic isnt worth writing...

"The problem is in this modern football world, overrated players are already valued at a minimum of 15 million, and what to say about world class then? its all about the money its ridicilous."

Exactly. Its insane.

"asajoseph wrote:
Well, I wouldn't even demand strict honesty, but I think that at the very least a consistent message is important, especially when the tone of so much of the media reporting around Arsenal is negative."

Couldn't agree more - he'll still get hammered though by some people. If he says he've nothing he'll get called a liar. If he says we have 50m he'll get hammered to spend that 50m striaght out on one transfer fee (ignoring wages and contract re-negotiation for other players)

 

[yuvken]

We don't have huge cash reserves, £30-40m at a push, that's accepted by almost all Arsenal fans. We've been making significant debt repayments for 7+ years now, during the same time period we have had a net spend on player purchases of zero.

So where is this signifcant amount of money coming from that we should have spent over these past 5 years? I don't see it. Unless deals were heavily structured over long periods of time, and even then the money has to eventually come from somewhere, and that's without factoring in the other finacial implications such as that newly signed player's wages, and how that affects the rest of the squad's wages.

Over that same time period, Wenger has kept us in the finanically lucrative top 4, kept us relatively competitive, bought some of the hottest talent in the world and turned a fair number of them into top players, even adding the odd star name from time to time. All this achieved by spending zero, that's nothing spent net. On the face of it, it would seem he's done a pretty remarkable job.

Whether he is now capable of building on the foundations he's laid and moving us up to the next level, the level everything we as a club have done in the past 6 years has been about getting to, and staying at for, well, forever really. It's still questionable, but when you really look at the bigger picture the job he has done here in the last 5 years is far bigger than any immidiate success.

If we accept what you say, and add to it (the reasonable assumption) that AW knew all the time that this is what things are really like, there remains a question about - why let us all feel we are really going for it (rather than passing a necessary low for the future, as an investment dictate)?
My own take on this is - why the hell not? it has so many + points: encourage the players, grant essential motivation to achieve (when you go for 3rd-4th, a motivational necessary condition is for players to believe they go for the title). Same almost holds for the fans (with much bigger financial effect, perhaps). And perhaps the sweetest of them - who knows, you may get lucky, and f**ing win it!
This must sound ethically wrong, or at least twisted. But it not necessarily is: so many of you declared right here they don't mind if he blatantly lies. And you were right, too: if life was so simple we could all just go about our business being "honest", world peace and utopia were probably in place ages ago. But it isn't. We accept trickery is part of the game, and obviously not just on the pitch - gaining an advantage is desirable, as long as you don't break the rules. "Spinning" doesn't break the rules (it perhaps sanctifies them, if anything).

You might pose the obvious complaint: "but in that he was/is lying to US". WE buy the season (or regular) ticket, we are the ones who fund his charade; and it is all based on the false promise we're going for the titles".

There must be some truth to that complaint, at least on the emotional level: it is asking us to stomach quite a bit. I think to say it is a clear lie depends also on how you see it as a fan long term: if you knew he's doing the essential to bring the club long term good - the biggest possible good - would you have thought it was justified?
At the end of the day, he seems to have come out with it in the end, after feeling the fans heat. which means (to some extent, at least) he was not really loving it (the persistent pretense)

there's clearly more to say, but I wasn't going to make this speech anyway, so I'll leave it at that for now.

 

[irishgunnerz]

Look at what happened [in the January transfer window]. Give me one big move. Zero. People ask me, ‘Why do you not buy a great striker?’ Tell me one who has moved from one club to another. Not one.

What does that mean? Perhaps chelseas, manures didn't buy strikers cause they already have them fit and fine and are on top of the league.

United at the time had a huge injury list, and have obvious weaknesses in the squad (which we certainly werent able to exploit but which has cost them season against other sides)

Chelsea were'nt certain they would get their transfer ban lifted, and with an ageing squad, it was a huge gamble not to sign anyone.

I think in United's case it was a combination of money b eing too tight to mention and the fact that they are worried about UEFA's Financial Fair Play comes online. They cant really afford to go even more into debt.

Abramovich seems like he's no longer willing to put the hand in those deep pockets either. Football clubs tend to live in a bubble financially, where time goes slower than in other industries - however the times have caught up with clubs, and they have to act. Smaller clubs are backs against the wall - they can no longer rely on installments on players if there is any doubt they might miss out if the buying club gets into trouble. Liquidity is an important issue here - sellers want cash up front more and more while the buying club have their own cash flow pressures and want to spread the payments out. It's leading to something of a stalemate in the market.

 

[irishgunnerz]

You might pose the obvious complaint: "but in that he was/is lying to US". WE buy the season (or regular) ticket, we are the ones who fund his charade; and it is all based on the false promise we're going for the titles".

There must be some truth to that complaint, at least on the emotional level: it is asking us to stomach quite a bit. I think to say it is a clear lie depends also on how you see it as a fan long term: if you knew he's doing the essential to bring the club long term good - the biggest possible good - would you have thought it was justified?
T the end of the day, he seems to have come out with it in the end, after feeling the fans heat. which means (to some extent, at least) he was not really loving it (the persistent pretense)

there's clearly more to say, but I wasn't going to make this speech anyway, so I'll leave it at that for now.

Therein lies the crux of the matter - fans have an emotional attchement to the club. A passion, a love, an unquenchable desire for victory. Football is an escape for us from the daily realities of life.

Directors and managers have the same emotional attchment - but DO have do deal with the reality of the situation.

 

[ultradoc]

Look at what happened [in the January transfer window]. Give me one big move. Zero. People ask me, ‘Why do you not buy a great striker?’ Tell me one who has moved from one club to another. Not one.

What does that mean? Perhaps chelseas, manures didn't buy strikers cause they already have them fit and fine and are on top of the league.

United at the time had a huge injury list, and have obvious weaknesses in the squad (which we certainly werent able to exploit but which has cost them season against other sides)

Chelsea were'nt certain they would get their transfer ban lifted, and with an ageing squad, it was a huge gamble not to sign anyone.

I think in United's case it was a combination of money b eing too tight to mention and the fact that they are worried about UEFA's Financial Fair Play comes online. They cant really afford to go even more into debt.

Abramovich seems like he's no longer willing to put the hand in those deep pockets either. Football clubs tend to live in a bubble financially, where time goes slower than in other industries - however the times have caught up with clubs, and they have to act. Smaller clubs are backs against the wall - they can no longer rely on installments on players if there is any doubt they might miss out if the buying club gets into trouble. Liquidity is an important issue here - sellers want cash up front more and more while the buying club have their own cash flow pressures and want to spread the payments out. It's leading to something of a stalemate in the market.

Considering that UNITED are champions and chelsea a close second and they are still the ones fighting it out at the top quite comfortably, I thought that was a silly comment a bit.

Let's see if he'd go for it in the summer. Personally I believe it's because of his belief in this total football thing which has convinced him to play players like rvP and adebayor,but that's for another thread.

 

[Captain]

Whether you think that is wise or folly probably comes down to how great you think Wenger is at judging the ability of his own players.

It's not about 'thinking' something of Wenger's judgement, to be honest.

Surely it is when the discussion turns to whether or not we could buy players in an affordable bracket. Maybe someone thinks Carlton Cole is much better than Eduardo for instance; that makes it more difficult to understand why he won't spend that money.

If on the other hand you actually agree that Wenger couldn't find any better players in our price range then the fact that he doesn't spend whatever money we have (small or large) on talent of a similar level is the right choice.

 

[kofigunner]

Man U didn't buy because they have experienced backup for most positions and they're broke. Yes, they did suffer a few games with people like Darren Fletcher having to play CB(the Fulham game springs to mind). However, they knew their top guys were coming back soon enough. If say Rooney and Berbatov were going to be out for 6 and 3 months respectively, I bet you they wouldn't have just relied on Owen, Welbeck and other non-starters. We on the other hand had our number one striker out for the season (effectively ), our number 2 and 3 strikers in Eduardo and Nik either crocked or semi-crocked. Not to mention that Arshavin wasn't 100%(I wonder if he's better now). Theo got crocked and was in and out. Vela's not experienced enough to lead the line. It's all right to be financially prudent but not to the exclusion of obvious fixes that need to be made if we are indeed serious about winning trophies.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

Man U didn't buy because they have experienced backup for most positions and they're broke. Yes, they did suffer a few games with people like Darren Fletcher having to play CB(the Fulham game springs to mind). However, they knew their top guys were coming back soon enough. If say Rooney and Berbatov were going to be out for 6 and 3 months respectively, I bet you they wouldn't have just relied on Owen, Welbeck and other non-starters. We on the other hand had our number one striker out for the season (effectively ), our number 2 and 3 strikers in Eduardo and Nik either crocked or semi-crocked. Not to mention that Arshavin wasn't 100%(I wonder if he's better now). Theo got crocked and was in and out. Vela's not experienced enough to lead the line. It's all right to be financially prudent but not to the exclusion of obvious fixes that need to be made if we are indeed serious about winning trophies.

To a certain extent I agree with you on these points, but do you not feel that Wenger has had his hands tied?

I wanted a striker in January because, as a fan, I want to win as many games as possible. But when all of our striker are fit, what do we do? We'd have too many, and we'd be talking about selling one.

 

[kofigunner]

To a certain extent I agree with you on these points, but do you not feel that Wenger has had his hands tied?

I wanted a striker in January because, as a fan, I want to win as many games as possible. But when all of our striker are fit, what do we do? We'd have too many, and we'd be talking about selling one.

True..but then again we tried to get Chamakh. We still don't have an out and out striker or CF. Nik phenotypically could be the one but either he likes straying from the middle or it's just that Wenger has played him more on the wings. Plus almost of all our strikers currently have dodgy injury records. Our healthiest attacker this season has been Arshavin. Almost everybody else has been in and out.

 

[irishgunnerz]

Considering that UNITED are champions and chelsea a close second and they are still the ones fighting it out at the top quite comfortably, I thought that was a silly comment a bit.

Ah but at start of January did it seem that way? With the injury list United had, they were playing midfielders as full backs for most of January.

And again, for Chelsea at the time it looked as if that was their last available chance to sign players for a season and a half.

During January we were right behind both. You would have thought with a signing for any of the three teams could have had an impact on the season but both were quiet. Every team in Europe was quiet.

 

[kofigunner]

Ah but at start of January did it seem that way? With the injury list United had, they were playing midfielders as full backs for most of January.

And again, for Chelsea at the time it looked as if that was their last available chance to sign players for a season and a half.

During January we were right behind both. You would have thought with a signing for any of the three teams could have had an impact on the season but both were quiet. Every team in Europe was quiet.

Good point. On that note I couldn't think of a positional need that Chelsea really needed filled however. All the big teams did their big spending last summer I guess, now they're waiting to see how they all end up.

 

[AshburtonGhost]

I'm happy that finally he has come out and stated this. That is all I wanted. To stop bullshitting fans. Now I can not be as disappointed about transfers at least.
I have a few questions though..when will we have that level of finances to buy great players when you need them.? when will this emirates project/debt end?

Look at what happened [in the January transfer window]. Give me one big move. Zero. People ask me, ‘Why do you not buy a great striker?’ Tell me one who has moved from one club to another. Not one.

What does that mean? Perhaps chelseas, manures didn't buy strikers cause they already have them fit and fine and are on top of the league.

And I think now we can rest with the fact that wenger's not going anywhere anytime soon. All the failures are now openly attributed to our lack of money,so any grounds for his ouster remaining?

If he can't afford the players we need, then he needs to amend his tactics/system to get more out of the current list.