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Gabriel Martinelli: Dogged and Determined

samspade

"You said I said" detection expert at your service
Yep, there was a lot of talk about Arteta improving Sane and Sterling, but it’s hard to quantify that in reality.
Both of them credit him heavily, you have take what they’ve said at face value in my opinion, they’ve no reason to single him out. He’s obviously very good at it, Pepe didn’t suit him but hey ho, not everyone mixes with everyone else
 

HaffBR

Designer of fancy pyramids

Country: USA

Player:White
Sane and Sterling will not keep it up against Vinicius for example. They are good wingers, but they never reached TOP10 in the world once, they never won the Premier League Player of the Season, Vinicius was the 8º world's best player last season.
 

db10_therza

🎵 Edu getting rickrolled 🎵
Trusted ⭐

Country: Bangladesh

Player:White
With all said and done, the biggest compliment I can pay our boy Nelli is that his only competition for best winger in the league is… Saka.

Discuss…
 

Entropics

Established Member

Country: Colombia

Player:Saka
The rumours make quite clear Arteta can't wait to upgrade on this guy

I can see why, his style makes it's too visible to ignore, with Saka you can pretend there has been some nuanced development on his game if you want, that's why the discussion is if he's world class or nearly there, not with Martinelli.

He looks like he has all the tools to become a world class player, but if in 3 years his highlights are tracking back or dribbling with his head down to the touchline, "terrorizing" the fullback to then gift the ball back with a nothing cross, then it becomes too obvious who should be blamed. That's a risk Arteta can't take.
 

HaffBR

Designer of fancy pyramids

Country: USA

Player:White
Both seemed to decline post 2019, make of that what you will…

So Arteta could turn Son or Salah - superior players to these two - in a TOP10 OAT?

PD: Sané I think looks better now. Sterling always looked welll...too much Sterling!
 

db10_therza

🎵 Edu getting rickrolled 🎵
Trusted ⭐

Country: Bangladesh

Player:White
So Arteta could turn Son or Salah - superior players to these two - in a TOP10 OAT?

PD: Sané I think looks better now. Sterling always looked welll...too much Sterling!

A good manager can help a player reach his potential. If the player is already maxxing out his potential all the manager can/should do is try make sure he don’t get injured…
 

HaffBR

Designer of fancy pyramids

Country: USA

Player:White
The rumours make quite clear Arteta can't wait to upgrade on this guy

I can see why, his style makes it's too visible to ignore, with Saka you can pretend there has been some nuanced development on his game if you want, that's why the discussion is if he's world class or nearly there, not with Martinelli.

He looks like he has all the tools to become a world class player, but if in 3 years his highlights are tracking back or dribbling with his head down to the touchline, "terrorizing" the fullback to then gift the ball back with a nothing cross, then it becomes too obvious who should be blamed. That's a risk Arteta can't take.

World Class is too much for a guy who doesn't have elite pace and 1vs1 as winger such as Saka.

If something Martinelli edges Saka in terms of defensive awareness, as well as creating threat and attacking value with his ball carrying and passing as well.

Soccerment has it clear:

Expected Overall Value Added p90:
Martinelli - 0.28
Saka - 0.20

Expected Thread p90
Martinelli - 0.17
Saka - 0.09


Considering both receive the same service.

Numbers of ball received/Progressive Passes received.
Martinelli 34.7/6.72
Saka 36.7/6.54
a curiosity:

It seems Martinelli makes more with the same service.

But ofc for some reason, all indicates Arteta (or Arsenal?) prefers Saka over him, no other reason indeed if Arsenal main target is Mudryk a LWF when Nelson and ESR are also natural on the LW (ESR was the LW starter until november last year in fact), compared to Marquinhos (should be on loan) and Vieira (not a winger).

I think Martinelli should be aware, Chelsea interest is/was real and PSG, Milan, Juve, Barcelona were all rumored at some point. Not sure if Martinelli really exploded as people think or he was too limited before, what I think he is that improved, he will improve more with more training and gametime.
 

db10_therza

🎵 Edu getting rickrolled 🎵
Trusted ⭐

Country: Bangladesh

Player:White
World Class is too much for a guy who doesn't have elite pace and 1vs1 as winger such as Saka.

If something Martinelli edges Saka in terms of defensive awareness, as well as creating threat and attacking value with his ball carrying and passing as well.

Soccerment has it clear:

Expected Overall Value Added p90:
Martinelli - 0.28
Saka - 0.20

Expected Thread p90
Martinelli - 0.17
Saka - 0.09


Considering both receive the same service.

Numbers of ball received/Progressive Passes received.
Martinelli 34.7/6.72
Saka 36.7/6.54
a curiosity:

It seems Martinelli makes more with the same service.

But ofc for some reason, all indicates Arteta (or Arsenal?) prefers Saka over him, no other reason indeed if Arsenal main target is Mudryk a LWF when Nelson and ESR are also natural on the LW (ESR was the LW starter until november last year in fact), compared to Marquinhos (should be on loan) and Vieira (not a winger).

I think Martinelli should be aware, Chelsea interest is/was real and PSG, Milan, Juve, Barcelona were all rumored at some point. Not sure if Martinelli really exploded as people think or he was too limited before, what I think he is that improved, he will improve more with more training and gametime.

Honestly, sometimes people put too much faith in stats. Stats without context can be very misleading. None of these stats will tell you sth like how good a player is at controlling tempo. That being said on the saka vs martinelli debate I’ll happily sit on the fence, delighted that we have both…

As for Arteta wanting Mudryk being proof that he rates Saka over Martinelli need I remind you that he was chasing raphinha in the summer? Could it be that he just wants quality depth across our forward line?
 

HaffBR

Designer of fancy pyramids

Country: USA

Player:White
Honestly, sometimes people put too much faith in stats. Stats without context can be very misleading. None of these stats will tell you sth like how good a player is at controlling tempo. That being said on the saka vs martinelli debate I’ll happily sit on the fence, delighted that we have both…

As for Arteta wanting Mudryk being proof that he rates Saka over Martinelli need I remind you that he was chasing raphinha in the summer? Could it be that he just wants quality depth across our forward line?

If data-event is incomplete what about plus-minus weighted such as Football Ratings (Hvattum) or Macro Football? They don't analyze what players makes with the service he receives, but just the team performance with the player in or out of the team, it seems that Martinelli is rated higher than Saka in both Macro Football and Football Ratings with already said more than 4000 less minutes played in league.

Of course you can go into detais and creates your agenda and view, but how unbieased it is? Saka controls the tempo, but what when Martinelli does the same, he is just being too selfish for most?

What people know is that some top clubs in Europe rate Martinelli very high despite Arsenal's fans usually rating Saka clearly higher than him.
 

Halend

Active Member
Why you are so angry, it will be the same history Ronaldo vs Rooney again. Just accept it. Martinelli is going to peak higher than any British player in history.

Why would we care about that, he plays for arsenal we would love that seeing as that would make him one of the greatest players off all time.
 

Trilly

All views posted are NOT my own
Trusted ⭐

Country: England
"terrorizing" the fullback to then gift the ball back with a nothing cross
Amount of times this happens I swear. :lol:

Been happening less though, he’s been decently productive so far.

If he can sort his left foot out he goes up a level. Defenders show him outside and he’s good at taking it and getting goalside but then his one footedness usually means a corner is the best case scenario.
 

db10_therza

🎵 Edu getting rickrolled 🎵
Trusted ⭐

Country: Bangladesh

Player:White
If data-event is incomplete what about plus-minus weighted such as Football Ratings (Hvattum) or Macro Football? They don't analyze what players makes with the service he receives, but just the team performance with the player in or out of the team, it seems that Martinelli is rated higher than Saka in both Macro Football and Football Ratings with already said more than 4000 less minutes played in league.

Of course you can go into detais and creates your agenda and view, but how unbieased it is? Saka controls the tempo, but what when Martinelli does the same, he is just being too selfish for most?

What people know is that some top clubs in Europe rate Martinelli very high despite Arsenal's fans usually rating Saka clearly higher than him.

These (plus-minus metrics) sound much more interesting to me. Thanks, I'll have a look.

Also I really was genuine when I said I couldn't pick who is better of the two. I love them both 😍

They obviously have different styles. Martinelli is more direct and tries lower percentage things and is generally more 'exciting', especially on the counter. Saka is much more cerebral and subtle like the way he passes to Ødegaard and darts in the box when BW is overlapping so the defenders dunno which way to turn and it opens things up in congested games. It's honestly fantastic that we have these two different styles of opening teams up on either wing.

And I don't wanna hear stuff like "Saka can't be a world class winger coz he doesn't have pace" though. He's no mudryk but he's a hell of a lot quicker than Pires was. Now you could of course say you didn't think Pires was world class. You would also then die at my hands from a thousand cuts, each as agonisingly precise and deliberate as the next...
 

HaffBR

Designer of fancy pyramids

Country: USA

Player:White
These (plus-minus metrics) sound much more interesting to me. Thanks, I'll have a look.

Also I really was genuine when I said I couldn't pick who is better of the two. I love them both 😍

They obviously have different styles. Martinelli is more direct and tries lower percentage things and is generally more 'exciting', especially on the counter. Saka is much more cerebral and subtle like the way he passes to Ødegaard and darts in the box when BW is overlapping so the defenders dunno which way to turn and it opens things up in congested games. It's honestly fantastic that we have these two different styles of opening teams up on either wing.

And I don't wanna hear stuff like "Saka can't be a world class winger coz he doesn't have pace" though. He's no mudryk but he's a hell of a lot quicker than Pires was. Now you could of course say you didn't think Pires was world class. You would also then die at my hands from a thousand cuts, each as agonisingly precise and deliberate as the next...

Nah, Pires was world class, but he was a different player compared to Saka anyway.
 

HaffBR

Designer of fancy pyramids

Country: USA

Player:White
Why would we care about that, he plays for arsenal we would love that seeing as that would make him one of the greatest players off all time.

I am just answering the usual suspects such as Entropics, Abou Cuellar in this thread.. or that impostor nonothingthing in Twitter. Diversity is the key. I wish Arsenal the best ofc.
 

Rasmi

Negative Nancy

Country: England
Raphinha was also going to bench Martinelli anyways
No way he would bench Martinelli. Forget potential I honestly think Martinelli is better player even now despite his flaws. Good chance he will be back in the PL anyway as he is hardly impressing in la liga. The biggest criticism Barca fans give him is how much he struggles to beat fullbacks one on one
 

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Monday, June 3

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