German Football 2017/18

[Toby]

Yeah, I've wondered about how Bayern will manage with the team aging now. With Robbery on their last year, Lahm gone and also Alonso, they've lost and are losing a lot of quality/experience. Producing little from their academy too. They bought Sule and will likely get Brandt next summer with other young top Germans over the years no doubt though.

It does look good and exciting for the Bundesliga for sure in the next few years for sure.

Same line of thinking regarding Bayern as me. Add to that Sanches being hit and miss, Boateng being hit with injuries and Alaba stagnating a bit over the last 1 or 2 seasons.
I also think that Hummels has been constantly regressing since his last 1,5 seasons at Dortmund, and I actually am sure that's because of his personal life. Kimmich is overrated, too imho, just like Douglas Costa - in his first half year he did a few tricks and stuff, then went into no man's land for the rest of his Bayern spell.
Müller is one of the most dangerous and valuable players when he's on fire, but since the last phase of Guardiola and still under Ancelotti, who both never seemed to know how and where to play him, he seems to have lost his footing. And off form he's a liability.
Ribéry was a phenomenal player, but he's 34, injury prone and already has lost some quality. Cuts it against the lower 2/3 of the Bundesliga, but against top 1/3 and in the CL, he's not good enough anymore.

The only guys constantly delivering are Vidal, Lewandwoski, Robben and Thiago, who's gotten better this year. But Robben is never gonna stay fit. And Without Vidal and Lewandowksi, they look ridiculously undynamic and toothless.

Got a lot of work to do to stay at the top and I'd actually like them to fail.

 

[4R5Emaniac]

Same line of thinking regarding Bayern as me. Add to that Sanches being hit and miss, Boateng being hit with injuries and Alaba stagnating a bit over the last 1 or 2 seasons.
I also think that Hummels has been constantly regressing since his last 1,5 seasons at Dortmund, and I actually am sure that's because of his personal life. Kimmich is overrated, too imho, just like Douglas Costa - in his first half year he did a few tricks and stuff, then went into no man's land for the rest of his Bayern spell.
Müller is one of the most dangerous and valuable players when he's on fire, but since the last phase of Guardiola and still under Ancelotti, who both never seemed to know how and where to play him, he seems to have lost his footing. And off form he's a liability.
Ribéry was a phenomenal player, but he's 34, injury prone and already has lost some quality. Cuts it against the lower 2/3 of the Bundesliga, but against top 1/3 and in the CL, he's not good enough anymore.

The only guys constantly delivering are Vidal, Lewandwoski, Robben and Thiago, who's gotten better this year. But Robben is never gonna stay fit. And Without Vidal and Lewandowksi, they look ridiculously undynamic and toothless.

Got a lot of work to do to stay at the top and I'd actually like them to fail.

Yeah, I don't rate Kimmich all that much. Good player but you must be having a laugh if you think he is going to replace Lahm. That said few can replace Lahm really. Same for Douglas Costa and also Coman. They aren't a patch on Robbery. Pep made them look very good but they're not special like Robben and Ribery.

They are going to have a lot to do, I agree. Won't say I want them to fail as such since honestly they are fantastically run and are an example to follow in many ways. However it would be nice to have an existing BuLi with teams with better prospects of winning the title and competing in Europe while being able to keep their good players. Its such a beautiful league with arguably the best infrastructure for being pro development and amazing fans. You can only wish they make progress and other leagues follow their example.

 

[Toby]

They are going to have a lot to do, I agree. Won't say I want them to fail as such since honestly they are fantastically run and are an example to follow in many ways. However it would be nice to have an existing BuLi with teams with better prospects of winning the title and competing in Europe while being able to keep their good players. Its such a beautiful league with arguably the best infrastructure for being pro development and amazing fans. You can only wish they make progress and other leagues follow their example.

My wish for them to fail is definitely more personal than objective. Bayern and Stuttgart have traditionally been the two big teams of southern Germany, so there's a big rivalry. They have a history of poaching our best players (Klinsmann, Elber, Gomez, Kimmich, etc.) and before "going global" of signing Bundesliga players just so other teams wouldn't have them. I dislike their management, Rummenigge is an entitled ****, Beckenbauer is in on all the corrupt FIFA shenanigans and having a sentenced criminal as President really says it all to me.

On a professional note, you still have to almost adore the way that club has been run in the last 3 decades, in the footballing as well as the business and financial departments.

Regarding the Bundesliga I love the way clubs are run, that they have to make profit to keep alive and that no investor can buy more than 49% of club shares. Those regulations really promote decent and thorough work in all aspects and if these are not axed for financial reasons in the coming years, I believe the Bundesliga has the best chances of surviving the surely coming implosion of the inflated football world.
On the other hand though, you can already see the growing gap between the PL or La Liga and the Bundesliga (expect Bayern) in terms of financial power to sign and keep certain quality players. And I think there have been made some mistakes in the last 5 years, as on the success of the national youth development, the national team and the all german CL final, the Bundesliga tried to bring in foreign quality players, but ended up with those average to decent while the real good ones still went to England or Spain, all the while neglecting the great youth work and apart from a couple of good prospects, Germany is really lacking in young players, compared to ca. 2008 to 2015.
I think you can see that recent step down in the EL and CL. Also, this season was horrible for the Bundesliga quality wise. Bayern ran away with the title, behind them Leipzig, BVB and Hoffenheim battled it out for 2nd to 4th and every team behind these 4 basically fought against relegation...

 

[Dennis_Bergkamp_10]

Dortmund are after Ajax-coach Peter Bosz after Favre was unattainable.

 

[Notorious Big]

Yeah, I don't rate Kimmich all that much. Good player but you must be having a laugh if you think he is going to replace Lahm. That said few can replace Lahm really. Same for Douglas Costa and also Coman. They aren't a patch on Robbery. Pep made them look very good but they're not special like Robben and Ribery.

They are going to have a lot to do, I agree. Won't say I want them to fail as such since honestly they are fantastically run and are an example to follow in many ways. However it would be nice to have an existing BuLi with teams with better prospects of winning the title and competing in Europe while being able to keep their good players. Its such a beautiful league with arguably the best infrastructure for being pro development and amazing fans. You can only wish they make progress and other leagues follow their example.

Bayern will need good reconstruction in next seasons.Lahm will be big miss,Robben and Ribery won't last that long,max 2 years.In mf they lost some big weapons like Basti,Kroos and Martinez was better in that role than on CB.I still think that they need some different manager and has to be from Germany.Don't like style of Pep and Carlo there.Reckon that Bayern will be silent in Europe in next few years.

 

[Toby]

I still think that they need some different manager and has to be from Germany.Don't like style of Pep and Carlo there.Reckon that Bayern will be silent in Europe in next few years.

I'd bet on Nagelsmann, if he continues his good work at Hoffenheim. If he's able to make them a genuine top 4 contender and get them to now and then play good stuff in the CL, he's dead set on the Bayern job.

He's THE german managerial prodigy, he is from Bavaria, he's a Bayern fan himself, his contract runs 'til 2019 and so does Ancelotti's. Hoeneß has indicated interest in him, but said he should stay at Hoffenheim for a bit, continue to learn and then they would see what happens in the future. Also, he jsut turned down Dortmund.

Even if Ancelotti just doesn't seem to really fit, they could be off worse with him at the helm for another two years.

 

[Notorious Big]

I'd bet on Nagelsmann, if he continues his good work at Hoffenheim. If he's able to make them a genuine top 4 contender and get them to now and then play good stuff in the CL, he's dead set on the Bayern job.

He's THE german managerial prodigy, he is from Bavaria, he's a Bayern fan himself, his contract runs 'til 2019 and so does Ancelotti's. Hoeneß has indicated interest in him, but said he should stay at Hoffenheim for a bit, continue to learn and then they would see what happens in the future. Also, he jsut turned down Dortmund.

Even if Ancelotti just doesn't seem to really fit, they could be off worse with him at the helm for another two years.

Yeah,that would be good call.I don't watch Bundesliga that much,but lot people said that he is good manager and he is very young.Bayern needs to come back to total football and to come back to their own style.All bullshit with Pep didn't work and Carlo's style also didn't impress me.

I except some worse results by them in next seasons.

 

[Toby]

Yeah,that would be good call.I don't watch Bundesliga that much,but lot people said that he is good manager and he is very young.Bayern needs to come back to total football and to come back to their own style.All bullshit with Pep didn't work and Carlo's style also didn't impress me.

I except some worse results by them in next seasons.

I do expect them to fare worse in the next seasons, too.

In the Bundesliga there are lots and lots of mediocre managers. They come in when teams underperform, sort of get them back on track with a breath of fresh air (and there's obviously the sheer effect of a new guy coming in) and the team just slightly instead of massively fails the set objcetives.
Then, when it's time to develop the team further, they fail. For that reasons, the average time in charge of Bundesliga managers is 1,5 to max. 2,5 seasons, I'd say.
Nagelsmann definitely looks different though, kept them in the league last season, manged to develop them further and you can see a clear idea of football.

Regarding Pep and Ancelotti at Bayern: for the self styled footballing messiah and the big CL winning italian granddad, they were/are really underwhelming. I think, despite winning trophies, having Pep manage them did more bad than good. Van Gaal and Heynckes were their best managers in recent years.

 

[Notorious Big]

I do expect them to fare worse in the next seasons, too.

In the Bundesliga there are lots and lots of mediocre managers. They come in when teams underperform, sort of get them back on track with a breath of fresh air (and there's obviously the sheer effect of a new guy coming in) and the team just slightly instead of massively fails the set objcetives.
Then, when it's time to develop the team further, they fail. For that reasons, the average time in charge of Bundesliga managers is 1,5 to max. 2,5 seasons, I'd say.
Nagelsmann definitely looks different though, kept them in the league last season, manged to develop them further and you can see a clear idea of football.

Regarding Pep and Ancelotti at Bayern: for the self styled footballing messiah and the big CL winning italian granddad, they were/are really underwhelming. I think, despite winning trophies, having Pep manage them did more bad than good. Van Gaal and Heynckes were their best managers in recent years.

Yeah,it looks like they lack real quality and often they stay in Bundesliga,and don't go to EPL or La Liga.I also don't rate them high because German clubs in Europe lack good tactical approach and apart from Bayern,other clubs look kinda naive against stronger teams.For example,Bayer and Schalke look far from any kind of win against English and Spanish teams and they were always well beaten.I mean,it happens sometimes,but maybe not enough for strong league like Bundesliga.

Football under Jupp was something speical.That was a top team,with right approach,great use of all players,very nice football to watch.I only didn't rate their defence that much tbh.They had some bad spells in CL on that point.Van Gaal was also good,little bit worse than under Jupp.Pep changed things a lot,but in CL they were beaten by Spanihs teams and were second best most of the time.

 

[Toby]

I also don't rate them high because German clubs in Europe lack good tactical approach and apart from Bayern,other clubs look kinda naive against stronger teams.

Yeah, I think the german teams took it a bit too far with the singular high energy gegenpressing counter game, which is def. a tad naive. Especially since more technical and tactically astute sides from Spain and elsewhere have found ways to overcome the german press and control games. And that is actually something all german teams apart from Bayern are not able to do: Regulate and change the tempo while keeping up a certain rhythm of play on the ball - basically they run around and press or they stop playing at all. Instilling tactical flexibility and the ability to change rhythm and control games was incidentally one of the big taks for Tuchel when he took over Dortmund.

 

[Notorious Big]

Yeah, I think the german teams took it a bit too far with the singular high energy gegenpressing counter game, which is def. a tad naive. Especially since more technical and tactically astute sides from Spain and elsewhere have found ways to overcome the german press and control games. And that is actually something all german teams apart from Bayern are not able to do: Regulate and change the tempo while keeping up a certain rhythm of play on the ball - basically they run around and press or they stop playing at all. Instilling tactical flexibility and the ability to change rhythm and control games was incidentally one of the big taks for Tuchel when he took over Dortmund.

Agree.I think that is good type of football for neutrals and in Bundesliga you can see a lot of goals,but things don't work like that at Europe.I don't expect from one of those teams to beat Real,Barca,Juve etc,but at least i want to see better effort and closer game.There were some big mistakes from them in defence and you can't afford that on top level.It looked too much unbalanced and with not right organization.Think that even Bayern has some problems with defence in CL,managers need to solve that ofc.

Team from Seria a and EPL in their peak were good in defence and they got good results and won titles.Barca and Real have good offence and they put finger on that.Atletico has good defence and they can adapt.

 

[Toby]

Agree. Bundesliga teams heavily rely on their firing power and who has more energy against each other. But in Europe their defensive strategies relying only on pressing and gegenpressing don't cut it. Sometimes teams, especially Bayer Leverkusen under Schmidt, were appallingly open at the back conceding far too many easy goals. Leverkusen really is probably the best example of all that: Good individual players, on the surface a nice tactical concept, but unbalanced setup, tactical inflexibility and naivety which expose them defensively.

Edit: On that note, the unbelievable balance and tactical setup and astuteness of Heynckes' Bayern was phenomenal compared to what's done right now in Germany. They could really practically do it all. Also have to give credit to Löw, who I actually don't rate too much, for changing the national team's tactics after the pressing-counter based success in 2010 and getting that team further tactically.

 

[Borussin]

I do expect them to fare worse in the next seasons, too.

In the Bundesliga there are lots and lots of mediocre managers. They come in when teams underperform, sort of get them back on track with a breath of fresh air (and there's obviously the sheer effect of a new guy coming in) and the team just slightly instead of massively fails the set objcetives.
Then, when it's time to develop the team further, they fail. For that reasons, the average time in charge of Bundesliga managers is 1,5 to max. 2,5 seasons, I'd say.
Nagelsmann definitely looks different though, kept them in the league last season, manged to develop them further and you can see a clear idea of football.

Regarding Pep and Ancelotti at Bayern: for the self styled footballing messiah and the big CL winning italian granddad, they were/are really underwhelming. I think, despite winning trophies, having Pep manage them did more bad than good. Van Gaal and Heynckes were their best managers in recent years.

to be fair, there is quite of mediocre managers in the premier league too

Last season there was a ridiculous turn over in head coaches for sure though.

As well as Nagelsmann, I'm interested to see how Nouri pushes on next season, he's a young coach to look out for too. Hasenhüttl is good too, Tuchel too, not that he's likely to be in the Bundesliga next season.

 

[Toby]

to be fair, there is quite of mediocre managers in the premier league too

That's for sure. Still, right now there's a lot of top talent managing in the PL. Plus there's managers that could be described as average, but still find a way to motivate their team, get them playing a certain way (even if it's ****) and generally reach the club's target.
La Liga has a couple of very interesting guys around and also in Italy, even if they traditionally have massive coach turnovers, there seems to be a new generation on the rise.

In Germany, I personally rate Nagelsmann, Tuchel, Hasenhüttl and Streich, maybe Stöger, but I'm not sold on him yet. Kovac, Dardai and Nouri have something to proof next year, got a gut feeling Kovac will be the only one to push on. Everyone else I consider dross. Hecking, Gisdol, Labbadia, Breitenreiter, Schubert, Korkut, Slomka...unbelievable how these guys keep clinging on to the coaching roundabout and getting jobs with their long standing history of failing after 1,5 to 2 years everywhere they went.

 

[4R5Emaniac]

Bayern will need good reconstruction in next seasons.Lahm will be big miss,Robben and Ribery won't last that long,max 2 years.In mf they lost some big weapons like Basti,Kroos and Martinez was better in that role than on CB.I still think that they need some different manager and has to be from Germany.Don't like style of Pep and Carlo there.Reckon that Bayern will be silent in Europe in next few years.

For sure. I think it would be in Bayern's best interest to sign two or three top quality players imo. Something like what they did with Robben. The players I was thinking are James, Brandt and some potential top right back. They'd have to break their wage structure for James though which is a complicated issue.

I do expect them to fare worse in the next seasons, too.

In the Bundesliga there are lots and lots of mediocre managers. They come in when teams underperform, sort of get them back on track with a breath of fresh air (and there's obviously the sheer effect of a new guy coming in) and the team just slightly instead of massively fails the set objcetives.
Then, when it's time to develop the team further, they fail. For that reasons, the average time in charge of Bundesliga managers is 1,5 to max. 2,5 seasons, I'd say.
Nagelsmann definitely looks different though, kept them in the league last season, manged to develop them further and you can see a clear idea of football.

Regarding Pep and Ancelotti at Bayern: for the self styled footballing messiah and the big CL winning italian granddad, they were/are really underwhelming. I think, despite winning trophies, having Pep manage them did more bad than good. Van Gaal and Heynckes were their best managers in recent years.

Excellent points again but I will just say that Pep despite his failure in the CL was a great coup for Bayern and German football including the national team. I think more German clubs should consider this route and that was my thinking in the discussions with Borussin.

Great points in the other posts re the Bundesliga as well along with Notorious. I agree this gegen pressing craze after Klopp and the 4-2-3-1 has been overdone. Coaches with another style etc would promote the development of different profile of players. You are completely right that the talent pool has been drying up in Germany and I suspect one of the reasons is the lack of foreign coaches and their different methods helping with the development.

to be fair, there is quite of mediocre managers in the premier league too

Last season there was a ridiculous turn over in head coaches for sure though.

As well as Nagelsmann, I'm interested to see how Nouri pushes on next season, he's a young coach to look out for too. Hasenhüttl is good too, Tuchel too, not that he's likely to be in the Bundesliga next season.

There are for sure but I would argue the level and quality of the average PL manager has been higher while now the very best are leading the top clubs at the minute. Money,circumstances and other resources help though.

Who is Nouri?

 

[Toby]

Who is Nouri?

Head coach at Werder Bremen right now, was promoted from their youth teams during the season. Turned them around from 4th worst team in the 1st half to the 4th best team in the 2nd half of the season , got them out of the relegation zone and close to EL qualification.

 

[Notorious Big]

For sure. I think it would be in Bayern's best interest to sign two or three top quality players imo. Something like what they did with Robben. The players I was thinking are James, Brandt and some potential top right back. They'd have to break their wage structure for James though which is a complicated issue.

Yeah,agree.They can buy top class players,they have a lot of money and they're still one of the best clubs and brands in the world.The thing is that they need to find a quite a lot world class players and that won't be easy.James will probably do thing on offensive part,but they need good workers like Basti and one good DF.Apart from right back position,defence is good.Attack with Lewa and Muller is also good.But wings where Bayern used to be so dangerous with Robben and Ribery,need to be better after they leave.

 

[Toby]

Great points in the other posts re the Bundesliga as well along with Notorious. I agree this gegen pressing craze after Klopp and the 4-2-3-1 has been overdone. Coaches with another style etc would promote the development of different profile of players. You are completely right that the talent pool has been drying up in Germany and I suspect one of the reasons is the lack of foreign coaches and their different methods helping with the development.

Might very well be just like that. The game completely oriented at running, easy passing and movement might have been detrimental to other aspects in youth coaching, like what to do with a ball other than running. Foreign coaches could surely have influenced that towards a more technical approach again.

On the other hand I think the guys who came through since WC 2006, EC 2008 and especially WC 2010 (Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Gomez, Özil, Müller, Boateng, Hummels, Götze, Khedira etc.) might be a golden generation of german players. I just don't see anyone as talented as these guys around now. Khedira came into the VfB squad aged 20 and instantly became an ingtegral part of a league winning side. Özil was phenomenal at Bremen and the 2010 WC, Schweinsteiger might be one of the best CMs off all time, being a nearly perfect B2B-DLP-hybrid. Draxler, Can, Kramer, Brandt, Gnabry et al...they might be good talents but they have nothing on that generation before them

 

[4R5Emaniac]

Head coach at Werder Bremen right now, was promoted from their youth teams during the season. Turned them around from 4th worst team in the 1st half to the 4th best team in the 2nd half of the season , got them out of the relegation zone and close to EL qualification.

Hmm, sounds interesting. Will look him up. I so wish Hamburg get something going. They have money again now.

Also I thought Roger Schmidt was a bit of a clown really. Some of Bayer's line up's in the CL were just mind boggling. It worked to an extent in the Bundesliga for a while I suppose and they actually had a top squad this time around but failed miserably.

Yeah,agree.They can buy top class players,they have a lot of money and they're still one of the best clubs and brands in the world.The thing is that they need to find a quite a lot world class players and that won't be easy.James will probably do thing on offensive part,but they need good workers like Basti and one good DF.Apart from right back position,defence is good.Attack with Lewa and Muller is also good.But wings where Bayern used to be so dangerous with Robben and Ribery,need to be better after they leave.

Agree about the wings. Don't rate Douglas Costa and Coman much as you know. I like Vidal and Thiago though. And as for world class they need 1 or 2 big names but they can sign players that will become world class or are on the verge of like they have done with Sule, likely will do with Brandt etc. They need to get a James and maybe one more big name but at a good age player to relaunch the squad again.

 

[Notorious Big]

On the other hand I think the guys who came through since WC 2006, EC 2008 and especially WC 2010 (Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Gomez, Özil, Müller, Boateng, Hummels, Götze, Khedira etc.) might be a golden generation of german players. I just don't see anyone as talented as these guys around now. Khedira came into the VfB squad aged 20 and instantly became an ingtegral part of a league winning side. Özil was phenomenal at Bremen and the 2010 WC, Schweinsteiger might be one of the best CMs off all time, being a nearly perfect B2B-DLP-hybrid. Draxler, Can, Kramer, Brandt, Gnabry et al...they might be good talents but they have nothing on that generation before them

I think that Germany will find a way to get talented players and to put them in good system with national team.In history they always played in later stages in the big tournaments and this national team has good potential.It can be hard to find new Lahm,Basti etc,but i still think that they can make decent team in the future.