German Football 2017/18

[4R5Emaniac]

Might very well be just like that. The game completely oriented at running, easy passing and movement might have been detrimental to other aspects in youth coaching, like what to do with a ball other than running. Foreign coaches could surely have influenced that towards a more technical approach again.

On the other hand I think the guys who came through since WC 2006, EC 2008 and especially WC 2010 (Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Gomez, Özil, Müller, Boateng, Hummels, Götze, Khedira etc.) might be a golden generation of german players. I just don't see anyone as talented as these guys around now. Khedira came into the VfB squad aged 20 and instantly became an ingtegral part of a league winning side. Özil was phenomenal at Bremen and the 2010 WC, Schweinsteiger might be one of the best CMs off all time, being a nearly perfect B2B-DLP-hybrid. Draxler, Can, Kramer, Brandt, Gnabry et al...they might be good talents but they have nothing on that generation before them

Yeah, I think players like Goretzka, Geis and Meyer for example under someone like Pellegrini would've progressed a lot I believe.

I like Brandt, Sule, Dahoud, Tah and Horn a lot. Haven't seen Henrichs but he is pretty highly rated from what I've heard/read. Apart from that though its not great or flowing like the other major nations for sure.

 

[Toby]

Hmm, sounds interesting. Will look him up. I so wish Hamburg get something going. They have money again now.

Haha, funny you wrote that! All the non-Hamburg fans in Germany (including me) have started to really get tired of their ****...no infrastructure or footballing brains in the setup, getting in mediocre mangers and players for too much cash and then wondering why it doesn't work...ffs, we got 15m quid for Kostic... They play **** and still avoid relegation, every year, a lot of people want them to just be gone and be done with it

I think that Germany will find a way to get talented players and to put them in good system with national team.In history they always played in later stages in the big tournaments and this national team has good potential.It can be hard to find new Lahm,Basti etc,but i still think that they can make decent team in the future.

I am sure we will. I'm not too worried, but I just think the youth development needs a bit of restructuring and that the guys 18 - 24 right now just aren't as good as the guys before them.

 

[Notorious Big]

Agree about the wings. Don't rate Douglas Costa and Coman much as you know. I like Vidal and Thiago though. And as for world class they need 1 or 2 big names but they can sign players that will become world class or are on the verge of like they have done with Sule, likely will do with Brandt etc. They need to get a James and maybe one more big name but at a good age player to relaunch the squad again.

Yeah,Jupp and LVG used Ribery and Robben to the max and game on the wings was something that Bayern did very well.Still,Robben has good season with Carlo,but overall system isn't that good.They need to use players better in big matches and things can be different.I rate both Thiago and Vidal.But like you said wings can be main problem and Bayern can be much weaker without that.

The system when they won CL in 2013 was something i really liked." False " 9 with Muller,strikers with Mandzukic or Gomez.Wingers Robben and Ribery.And mf was the biggest difference than nowdays.You had one offensive player like Kroos,Basti who done all good job in mf,and Martinez who was DMF.Also,Luis Gustavo played on that position.Defence is also top class,Lahm,Boateng,Van Buyten and Alaba.Perfect team.

 

[Toby]

Yeah, I think players like Goretzka, Geis and Meyer for example under someone like Pellegrini would've progressed a lot I believe.

Schalke, these guys...they're like the german Chelsea sort of. They have a good academy, but their players rarely make it to the top. Those you named are good examples: when they were 2, 3 years younger they were the top rated german talents...since then they didn't really develop or push on. Draxler left, Meyer just yesterday announced he wasn't renewing his contract and leaving.

 

[Toby]

The system when they won CL in 2013 was something i really liked." False " 9 with Muller,strikers with Mandzukic or Gomez.Wingers Robben and Ribery.And mf was the biggest difference than nowdays.You had one offensive player like Kroos,Basti who done all good job in mf,and Martinez who was DMF.Also,Luis Gustavo played on that position.Defence is also top class,Lahm,Boateng,Van Buyten and Alaba.Perfect team.

Even though I don't like Bayern at all, I have to agree on what you say about that team, one of the best I have ever seen. And I like Henyckes a lot, decent person, very intelligent and firm on the ground, great manager and now stays out of the public very much - not spouting nonsense like so much other clowns. I still think Bayern kind of ****ed him over with that Guardiola appointment, after he just won the treble. Then again...he went off into the sunset with every competition won he competed in in his last year

 

[4R5Emaniac]

Yeah,Jupp and LVG used Ribery and Robben to the max and game on the wings was something that Bayern did very well.Still,Robben has good season with Carlo,but overall system isn't that good.They need to use players better in big matches and things can be different.I rate both Thiago and Vidal.But like you said wings can be main problem and Bayern can be much weaker without that.

The system when they won CL in 2013 was something i really liked." False " 9 with Muller,strikers with Mandzukic or Gomez.Wingers Robben and Ribery.And mf was the biggest difference than nowdays.You had one offensive player like Kroos,Basti who done all good job in mf,and Martinez who was DMF.Also,Luis Gustavo played on that position.Defence is also top class,Lahm,Boateng,Van Buyten and Alaba.Perfect team.

Yeah, agree. And great football to watch as well. I think if they had kept Kroos they'd be much better now in midfield. What a monumental **** up it was. Problem with Robbery is that they are hard to find and get that level of player. Robben fell to them because of Van Gaal and Real Madness while Ribery they were quick to sign. Signing LVG and Robben basically changed their club on the pitch. They're own HG players helped of course too and it was the perfect blend of everything.

 

[Notorious Big]

Even though I don't like Bayern at all, I have to agree on what you say about that team, one of the best I have ever seen. And I like Henyckes a lot, decent person, very intelligent and firm on the ground, great manager and now stays out of the public very much - not spouting nonsense like so much other clowns. I still think Bayern kind of ****ed him over with that Guardiola appointment, after he just won the treble. Then again...he went off into the sunset with every competition won he competed in in his last year

Yes,the game was so good at that point and has everything that football needs.It wasn't boring possession,just total football.Pep was a different story,didn't like him that much in Bayern.He just didn't do good job in big matches in CL and Bayern was well beaten by Real and Barca just beacuse Pep wasn't that flexible.Also,style of play wasn't good for Bayern and German football.

 

[Notorious Big]

Yeah, agree. And great football to watch as well. I think if they had kept Kroos they'd be much better now in midfield. What a monumental **** up it was. Problem with Robbery is that they are hard to find and get that level of player. Robben fell to them because of Van Gaal and Real ******* while Ribery they were quick to sign. Signing LVG and Robben basically changed their club on the pitch. They're own HG players helped of course too and it was the perfect blend of everything.

True,always loved to watch Kroos,he made a difference a lot of times,and always had good spells with Germany,Bayern and now in Real he looks great.Shame that he didn't stay in Bavaria.Think that Pep wanted to sell him,wasn't good for his system.Bullshit.Yeah,Robben made difference and when he came Bayern played CL final in 2010.It was a turning point somehow for them.I remember in that period from 2003 to 2009,Bayern was far from today's level.They even played Europa League once and didn't win Bundesliga for a few years.But since 2010 everything is different.

 

[Toby]

It was a turning point somehow for them.I remember in that period from 2003 to 2009,Bayern was far from today's level.They even played Europa League once and didn't win Bundesliga for a few years.But since 2010 everything is different.

Big turning point for Bayern was when they missed CL qualification for 07/08, they got Ribery and Toni and Hitzfeld to secure CL again. Then they showed progressiveness in appointing Klinsmann, albeit that didn't go too well. They were though willing to take a "risk" again, by bringing in van Gaal. So in the late 2000s they were good at analyzing football was evolving on the pitch, and took a progressive stance bringing in "concept"-managers, as they are called in Germany.

Also, during the same time, off the field they also did very good, being outstanding at international marketing, positioning themselves in the german market as the absolute No. 1, securing top marketing deals and striking beneficial partnerships with investors like Telekom and Audi. They really pushed into that european top on all floors.

Their new off the field power resulted in them getting Robben and managing to keep Ribery despite heavy interest from Madrid, Barca, ManUtd and Chelsea, iirc. Alongside van Gaals football and the CL final 2010, they really put themselves at the top of football.

If they just weren't that unlikeable and arrogant Just wish Stuttgart would've pushed on from the league title in 2007.

Edit: What I forgot, but surely don't want to embezzle...the rise of Dortmund under Klopp did also play a massive part in all that. They were appalled at losing twice to BVB and did everything to get back to the top, bringing in Neuer, Boateng, Javi Martinez, Mario Mandzukic, Dante and Heynckes in the two transfer windows after losing the league to BVB.

 

[Toby]

Posted this in the Random Football thread cause didn't know where to else, but might actually fit in here, too, if not even better:


http://www.reuters.com/article/us-gulf-qatar-idUSKBN18W0DQ

After Saudi Arabia, Egypt, United Arab Emirates and Bahrain cut ties with Qatar 'cause of their alleged support for islamic terrorism, e.g. apparently financing Assad's most religiously extreme opponents, this happened:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-gulf-qatar-worldcup-idUSKBN18W1KB?il=0

DFB president Reinhard Grindel said, that under such circumstances - the host nation of a WC supporting terrorism - the german football association would consider boycotting the 2022 WC in Qatar and would be confering with the german government as well as FIFA about the situation.

 

[Toby]

Just in:

According to BILD, Dortmund activate Maximilian Philipp's release clause of 20m €, making him Freiburg's highest outgoing transfer, superseding Papiss Cissé who left for Newcastle in 2012 for 14m €. Philipp has apparently already left the U21-national team's training camp to undergo a medical and sign the contract.
Philipp is groomed as Dortmund's replacement and eventual successor for Marco Reus, who is out with a longterm injury to his cruciate ligament, as the Freiburg forward can play as a lone striker, off a target man or on the wings.
His departure will be a massive blow to SC Freiburg, who, after a fantastic season as a just promoted team, play EL Qualification next season, after already losing Vincenzo Grifo to Gladbach.

https://www.transfermarkt.de/-bdquo...ipp-freiburger-rekord-abgang/view/news/276673

 

[Toby]

According to dutch and german media, Peter Bosz to Dortmund is a done deal. 5m fee, 4m wages, 2 year deal.

 

[Rimaal]

 

[Toby]

By chance anyone seen the international game vs. Denmark last night? Despite the tons of first timers and most of them never having played together...that Confed Cup squad is, apart from the odd player out, absolute poverty. Sandro Wagner, ffs?
Just backs up my feeling that the generation of players who are now in their late 20s to mid 30s have been a golden generation for german football

 

[Toby]

Gnabry will leave Werder Bremen, most likely to join Hoffenheim


Bayern ready to sell Sanches and Douglas Costa

https://www.transfermarkt.de/-bdquo...eben-neue-transferstrategie-/view/news/277028

 

[4R5Emaniac]

Gnabry will leave Werder Bremen, most likely to join Hoffenheim


Bayern ready to sell Sanches and Douglas Costa

https://www.transfermarkt.de/-bdquo...eben-neue-transferstrategie-/view/news/277028

You should put non Arsenal related transfer news in here: https://arsenal-mania.com/forum/threads/non-arsenal-transfers-thread-summer-2017.30034/page-67

Interesting move and a good one for Gnabry. I'm also glad he left Werder being a bit of an HsV fan!-that sounds ridiculous for a South East Asian football fan, I'm aware . I came to be one from playing Fifa career mode with them often, for their beautiful jerseys and Van Der Vaart.

Since that HsV is brought up again I'll take the opportunity to talk about a bit. I remember I was looking for news about them around the middle of the season before last and got to know they have this new guy taking over willing to invest in the club. Didn't really watch but got to know they had a relatively decent season under Labbadia with a number of good performers and their notable players doing well. That got me a bit interested to see what they'd do last summer and they actually invested pretty heavily. Didn't know much about Kostic apart from highlights while his number looked good and they signed who I think is a phenomenal talent in Halilovic. Bobby Wood as well was receiving some attention that you expect some American striker to get after scoring a few be it line in the 2nd tier. Well, it looked like progress to me but not enough since they were short of quality in FB,CB and CM. Thought Halilovic like transfers were the start of a few like a strategy that would transform the club slowly. But that was about it yet on paper it looked like they were progressing.

Then they didn't play Halilovic and he left on bad terms while Kostic hasn't done anything by the look of things. Only Wood had a good season and yet again everyone/everything turned out to be complete **** including the managers. I followed what was up but didn't watch at all and kind of took a break from all football stuff to return to learn they were on brink of relegation yet again. And they escape yet again !

Any idea what is there problem? I read a few months ago they changed to a new Sporting Director. I have no idea if he is any good and Grisdol I don't know much about him either.

Over the years the number of quality players they have lost for nothing could form a starting lineup of a top 3/4 team easily. Losing them in their state is fine but they lost them for absolutely nothing in return and a number of them are their own home grown players.

This Gnabry, I actually signed him in Fifa for HsV in previous titles which got me thinking Arsenal could do a deal with them in which some of our young players go on loan there.

What do they need to do? Its frustrating since they have money and are a traditional giant. They so obviously have potential to turn into a top club.

 

[Oh_Snap]

If they want Sanchez we could take both Sanches & Costa

 

[Toby]

Any idea what is there problem? I read a few months ago they changed to a new Sporting Director. I have no idea if he is any good and Grisdol I don't know much about him either.

Have a look at this, it's their manager history, go back as far as 2010, there's not one inspiring quality appointment: Veh, Oenning, Zinnbauer? Jesus! The other don't cut it too, run of the mill average Bundesliga coaches.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/hamburger-sv/mitarbeiterhistorie/verein/41/personalie_id/1

Same goes for their DoFs. Beiersdrofer did a good job, then lost his touch in mid 2000s. Bastian Reinhardt, Frank Arnesen, Peter Knäbel all wrong decisions. The most baffling one: Oliver Kreuzer who had just ruined Karlsruher SC and got them demoted to 3rd division...he still got a job at HSV. Ridiculous.
The board has no footballing brains, and when Beiersdorfer lost it and then went to Zenit, there was no one left to make decent decisions. They basically got everything wrong, from coaches to DoFs to players. They got sugardaddy Kühne but that guy is an idiot, first he doesn't get involved just gives the money, then he gets involved but he's clueless. Takes Beiersdorfer back from Zenit, doesn't work, gets fired after 2 years.

Have a look at their recruitment since about 2009:
https://www.transfermarkt.de/hamburger-sv/alletransfers/verein/41

It's all over the place, there's no system, they recruit old over the hill players. It's massive numberswise, getting in 5 to 10 first 11 players every summer disrupting team harmony and balance. Calhanoglu the only decent player brought in 5 or 6 years...they even bought Djourou. Quality players from their youth academy constantly leaving: Son, Demirbay, Tah, Öztunali.

They need a proper footballing guy at the top, some brains in the board and then implement a whole new infrastructure concerning how they operate: Who does what, what's the hierarchy, how much influence has the sugardaddy, what's the footballing philosophy? Get a new scouting department. Adjust your expectations: They are HSV, yes, but they've been **** - try to constantly get around 10th and don't aim for EL or CL all the time just because you're a "big" club. Make bold decisions.

It's hard for them, because to truly do all these things, you'd need a calm atmosphere and some air to breath. But they don't have that, coupled with idiocy at board level, the vicious cycle of "new DoF - new coach - new players - hope - okayish to underwhelming performances - panic and interference from everyone somehow involved - relegation battle - coach fired" will recycle endlessly.

 

[4R5Emaniac]

Have a look at this, it's their manager history, go back as far as 2010, there's not one inspiring quality appointment: Veh, Oenning, Zinnbauer? Jesus! The other don't cut it too, run of the mill average Bundesliga coaches.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/hamburger-sv/mitarbeiterhistorie/verein/41/personalie_id/1

Same goes for their DoFs. Beiersdrofer did a good job, then lost his touch in mid 2000s. Bastian Reinhardt, Frank Arnesen, Peter Knäbel all wrong decisions. The most baffling one: Oliver Kreuzer who had just ruined Karlsruher SC and got them demoted to 3rd division...he still got a job at HSV. Ridiculous.
The board has no footballing brains, and when Beiersdorfer lost it and then went to Zenit, there was no one left to make decent decisions. They basically got everything wrong, from coaches to DoFs to players. They got sugardaddy Kühne but that guy is an idiot, first he doesn't get involved just gives the money, then he gets involved but he's clueless. Takes Beiersdorfer back from Zenit, doesn't work, gets fired after 2 years.

Have a look at their recruitment since about 2009:
https://www.transfermarkt.de/hamburger-sv/alletransfers/verein/41

It's all over the place, there's no system, they recruit old over the hill players. It's massive numberswise, getting in 5 to 10 first 11 players every summer disrupting team harmony and balance. Calhanoglu the only decent player brought in 5 or 6 years...they even bought Djourou. Quality players from their youth academy constantly leaving: Son, Demirbay, Tah, Öztunali.

They need a proper footballing guy at the top, some brains in the board and then implement a whole new infrastructure concerning how they operate: Who does what, what's the hierarchy, how much influence has the sugardaddy, what's the footballing philosophy? Get a new scouting department. Adjust your expectations: They are HSV, yes, but they've been **** - try to constantly get around 10th and don't aim for EL or CL all the time just because you're a "big" club. Make bold decisions.

It's hard for them, because to truly do all these things, you'd need a calm atmosphere and some air to breath. But they don't have that, coupled with idiocy at board level, the vicious cycle of "new DoF - new coach - new players - hope - okayish to underwhelming performances - panic and interference from everyone somehow involved - relegation battle - coach fired" will recycle endlessly.

Cheers, explains everything. Looks like a total mess that needs cleaning all over.

Btw, what is your opinion of Kolasinac? I was far from impressed when I've seen him at the start and looked meh a few times after that but I can't tell if he has really improved that much to become a starter here. You must know better.

 

[Toby]

Btw, what is your opinion of Kolasinac? I was far from impressed when I've seen him at the start and looked meh a few times after that but I can't tell if he has really improved that much to become a starter here. You must know better.

At Schalke he was first hyped, then not so much cause his performances were patchy, last year he kinda got into gear a bit more. That's when I, and the rest of football people in Germany, began to think he was going to become a strong player for Schalke. But mind you: a good player for Schalke.

And that's what he is, imo, a very decent upper Bundesliga LB. Outstanding in comparison to most other Schalke players this season, but still not magnificent - you wouldn't find a lot of better LBs in Germany, France or the likes, but he's not a mega talent.
Still only 23, if he improves he can become great, if he stays on the level he's now he will become the next Monreal, but he's never gonna be as bad as Gibbs. Kind of like Jonas Hector, who surely isn't phenomenal but good quality, reliability and constance, also puts in very good and stable performances for Köln and Germany. Don't see much more in Mendy tbh, that guy's not Marcelo or Roberto Carlos either. Kola for 0 cash is definitely the better deal than Mendy for 40m.