Mikel Arteta: Aston La Vista To The Title?

[Makingtrax]

So those who back Arteta over here, and post their reasons for doing so, are the ones who are part of a cult eh?

I can't believe that you can't see what the problem is bro. There are two types of Arteta supporters:

a) those who accept he's a novice, but that he's learning and are interested to see where it might lead with all the support he's getting from KSE. The acceptable minority.

b) the vast and irritating hypocrtical majority who are making long posts to twist and overplay his stats and who are constantly putting down previous managers to make him look better. The same ones who would have stoned Arsène for not making top 4 once at three attempts. The same ones throwing our players under a bus to justfy Arteta's failure. Cult like behaviour is a very appropriate discription.

 

[Sapient Hawk]

Honestly there's no point in this thread anymore.

It's just a circlejerk of people competing to dislike Arteta more than the previous person. It's to the point now that it's an irrational level of hate in my view. Like, he can't have banged all your mums or girlfriends

You're not allowed to make a single observation that Arteta has done well in one facet of his job without getting jumped on as being in a 'Cult'

These Arteta cult members just don't exist on here, bar maybe 1-2. It's a strawman fan that's been created so people can vent their fury on and use as a punchbag. No-ones riding Arteta hard but anything sort of total condemnation gets you cast as a cult member.

It's no surprise that virtually everyone with a somewhat positive view of Arteta has fled this thread. It's a waste of time to be honest.

Even @Dokaka gets turned on for giving his opinions. A West Ham fan who has no reason at all to be part of the Arteta cult but is still treated as such.

It's the small victories that count

 

[Makingtrax]

Honestly there's no point in this thread anymore.

It's just a circlejerk of people competing to dislike Arteta more than the previous person. It's to the point now that it's an irrational level of hate in my view. Like, he can't have banged all your mums or girlfriends

You're not allowed to make a single observation that Arteta has done well in one facet of his job without getting jumped on as being in a 'Cult'

These Arteta cult members just don't exist on here, bar maybe 1-2. It's a strawman fan that's been created so people can vent their fury on and use as a punchbag. No-ones riding Arteta hard but anything sort of total condemnation gets you cast as a cult member.

It's no surprise that virtually everyone with a somewhat positive view of Arteta has fled this thread. It's a waste of time to be honest.

Even @Dokaka gets turned on for giving his opinions. A West Ham fan who has no reason at all to be part of the Arteta cult but is still treated as such.

Lol. @Dokaka is one those who had most to say about how **** Wenger was and how fantastic Arteta is. If you don't think that benefits West Ham I'm surprised. West Ham never got within a million miles of Arsène but finished above Arsenal under Arteta for the first time since 1985.

 

[SA Gunner]

I can't believe that you can't see what the problem is bro. There are two types of Arteta supporters:

a) those who accept he's a novice, but that he's learning and are interested to see where it might lead with all the support he's getting from KSE. The acceptable minority.

b) the vast and irritating hypocrtical majority who are making long posts to twist and overplay his stats and who are constantly putting down previous managers to make him look better. The same ones who would have stoned Arsène for not making top 4 once at three attempts. The same ones throwing our players under a bus to justfy Arteta's failure. Cult like behaviour is a very appropriate discription.

It cuts both ways Trax.

On the Arteta out side, you have the very same situation. On the one hand you have those who present similar stats that the manager is going in the wrong direction and are ready to debate. These are quite a few I might add.

Then you have another vast majority who come up with any and every single excuse under the sun to label Mikel as the most useless, worthless manager ever to manage a team. Making claims that the manager has already failed, despite the club not supporting that view. Saying that the manager has no excuses not to finish top four, then in the same breath says he is out of his depth when looking at the managers around him.

Even going as far as to say that our last FA Cup was won... despite his management, i.e. the win had nothing to do with Arteta at all. But in the same breath... back to back 8th places are all about Mikel.

Oh, not forgetting to bring it to the forums attention everytime Aubameyang scored a goal, and when there was talk of Saliba not returning to the club. The latter point you had supporters actually hoping Saliba would force a move away to weaken the team, because they cared for him.

So yeah, as I said the cult swings both ways at the very least, I definitely see a cult like behaviour more on the Arteta-Out side. This has become agenda central, with weird and wonderful reasons being put forward to reinforce hard stances.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

Lol. @Dokaka is one those who had most to say about how **** Wenger was and how fantastic Arteta is. If you don't think that benefits West Ham I'm surprised. West Ham never got within a million miles of Arsène but finished above Arsenal under Arteta for the first time since 1985.

@Dokaka gave some pretty mild praise to Arteta as far as I read. Basically he didn't do a bad job last season and with a number of caveats about his suitability for the job in the long term.

It's not like he was fawning over Arteta.

 

[Sapient Hawk]

I can't believe that you can't see what the problem is bro. There are two types of Arteta supporters:

a) those who accept he's a novice, but that he's learning and are interested to see where it might lead with all the support he's getting from KSE. The acceptable minority.

b) the vast and irritating hypocrtical majority who are making long posts to twist and overplay his stats and who are constantly putting down previous managers to make him look better. The same ones who would have stoned Arsène for not making top 4 once at three attempts. The same ones throwing our players under a bus to justfy Arteta's failure. Cult like behaviour is a very appropriate discription.

The former will be redeemed because they were blameless in putting their faith in the biggest con artist since Rasputin.

The latter should have their collective status as humans revoked.

Alas, due to not having the proper political clout to affect a change of such magnitude, we'll simply heap as much scorn on them as possible

 

[Makingtrax]

It cuts both ways Trax.

On the Arteta out side, you have the very same situation. On the one hand you have those who present similar stats that the manager is going in the wrong direction and are ready to debate. These are quite a few I might add.

Then you have another vast majority who come up with any and every single excuse under the sun to label Mikel as the most useless, worthless manager ever to manage a team. Making claims that the manager has already failed, despite the club not supporting that view. Saying that the manager has no excuses not to finish top four, then in the same breath says he is out of his depth when looking at the management around him.

Even going as far as to say that our last FA Cup was won... despite his management, i.e. the win had nothing to do with Arteta at all. But in the same breath... back to back 8th places are all about Mikel.

Oh, not forgetting to bring it to the forums attention everytime Aubameyang scored a goal, and when there was talk of Saliba not returning to the club. The latter point you had supporters actually hoping Saliba would force a move away to weaken the team, because they cared for him.

So yeah, as I said the cult swings both ways at the very least. This has become agenda central, with weird and wonderful reasons being put forward to reinforce hard stances.

No, it doesn't cut both ways bro. That's wrong. Consider Auba, as you brought him up. The cultists in here said he was **** and finished to justify Arteta giving him away for free. Some of us strongly disagreed and said it was Arteta's tactics that were causing his dip. Much like the dip Kane had under Nuno.

He went to Barca and his stats were better than any other striker in the whole of the top 5 European leagues. Much like Kane rapidly improved from his dip under Conte. You wanted us not to mention this? It's yet another clear example of what the rational posters on here have been saying . . . with actual evidence.

The two sides are nothing like each other, like you claim.

 

[Makingtrax]

@Dokaka gave some pretty mild praise to Arteta as far as I read. Basically he didn't do a bad job last season and with a number of caveats about his suitability for the job in the long term.

It's not like he was fawning over Arteta.

Like so many other posters that had the most to say on previous managers, he's just trying to justify the rubbish he wrote in the past.

 

[SA Gunner]

No, it doesn't cut both ways bro. That's wrong. Consider Auba, as you brought him up. The cultists in here said he was **** and finished to justify Arteta giving him away for free. Some of strongly us disagreed and said it was Arteta's tactics that were causing his dip. Much like the dip Kane had under Nuno.

He went to Barca and his stats were better than any other striker in the whole of the top 5 European leagues. Much like Kane rapidly improved from his dip under Conte. You wanted us not to mention this? It's yet another clear example of what the rational posters on here have been saying . . . with actual evidence.

The two sides are nothing like each other, like you claim.

Yes it absolutely does bro. You do not have to agree with my assessment but to tell me that's wrong is an opinion, which you are entitled to. Present your evidence if you think Im wrong, and lets discuss, dont just tell me Im wrong.

Im giving you my opinion that the cult like behavior exists very much in the Arteta-OUT camp. If you dont believe me, have a look at the quality of arguments made against Arteta. If there werent rabid like opinions thought up, then I would agree with you. But I cannot agree with you because some of the OUT opinions are rabid like and absolute garbage, and you know it.

The Aubameyang decision was taken and the reasoning for the decision making is clear to decipher. Whether you or I like the decision taken is immaterial. How we grade the decision taken is also immaterial, and it should not play a role in the grading of the manager. It is the manager's perogative to take those decisions and he will be judged accordingly based on the black and white results attained through that decision. Just like Tuchel right now has the right to ship off Lukaku for peanuts, its his decision to take as manager.

The cultists on both sides, are not interested in facts, they are interested in agendas and being proven right on their stance. That is why you have extreme evidence of cognitive dissonance on display, and continuos goalpost shifting to suit their cause.

The worst part is... this will continue until the said party are forced into retirement from this place. And we are left with their trail of **** which stinks up this forum.

 

[Slug457]

In my post I meant nuance in regard to the wide range of opinions (from all sides and angles) and even wider range of reasons people might have for those opinions - not specifically @Fallout's.

Unfortunately - and I shouldn't have to explain this - even if you disagree with his assessment there are reasonable points of discussion to be had. He points out that the gradual trend upwards started from a low-base (discussion point - why was it so low in the first place), why was the trend so gradual (discussion point - two 8th place finishes before finally seeing improvement to 5th), and (discussion point) why did it take so much money (as he concedes) to get there. A fair and reasonable argument could be made either side of all those points.

Instead you pretend there isn't an objective improvement from 8th to 5th (rather than questioning Arteta's ineptitude at two 8th place finishes in the first instances, whether that is a sufficient improvement with the squad at his disposable, or the incredible amount of funds made available for transfers, just a few E.G), and kill any reasonable conversation by lumping in the poster with a monolithic "they" of cult "inners" who all make exactly the same arguments, and are apparently all hypocrites according to their own hive-mind logic. I understand, though, that actually engaging with the posters individual points/thoughts/views/beliefs on the topic is much more critically demanding than using lazily-made generalizations.

To each their own, just find it odd that on a forum meant for discussion people can be so uninterested in actually having any.

Your argument crumbles because Arteta cultists were worshipping him and calling him the second coming of Pep after he dragged us out of Europe for the first time in decades, not because they saw a improvement to 5th. Very obvious there is a segment of Arteta fans whom will worship him regardless of the results/performances, heck him having us in relegation form going into Christmas made no difference in their praise, nor getting knocked out V the manager we sacked him for in Europe. The reasonable Arteta fan who can see that he atleast improved us to 5th from 8th, on record spending, and thus deserves another season to show what he can do, fine, but lets not pretend a cult like core does not exist, go browse r/teta some time and you'll see. If Arteta cant cope with Europe/cups/league and has us down in 8th again next season you will still see many of his cult core defending/praising him

 

[Makingtrax]

Yes it absolutely does bro. You do not have to agree with my assessment but to tell me that's wrong is an opinion, which you are entitled to. Present your evidence if you think Im wrong, and lets discuss.

Im giving you my opinion that the cult like behavior exists very much in the Arteta-OUT camp. If you dont believe me, have a look at the quality of arguments made against Arteta. If there werent rabid like opinions thought up, then I would agree with you. But I cannot agree with you because some of the OUT opinions are absolute garbage, and you know it.

The Aubameyang decision was taken and the reasoning for the decision making is clear to decipher. Whether you or I like the decision taken is immaterial. How we grade the decision taken is also immaterial. It is the manager's perogative to take those decisions and he will be judged accordingly.

The cultists on both sides, are not interested in facts, they are interested in agendas and being proven right on their stance. That is why you have extreme evidence of cognitive dissonance on display, and continuos goalpost shifting to suit their cause.

The worst part is... this will continue until the said party are forced into retirement from this place.

I don't know what to say to that. I gave you clear evidence in that example not based on opinion. If Auba had gone to Barca and been anything other outstanding in his end product then you would have had a case, particularly if we'd tried to big it up.

Most of those on here that criticise Arteta for not being good enough are posters I greatly respect like @albakos, @Macho, @Trilly and many others. They're mainly evidenced based posters and far from being cultist.

 

[Slug457]

I don't think there's a logical inconsistency between being Wenger-out during his final years and Arteta-in today.

The same guys marching saying top 4 means F all when Wenger was here now singing songs all season about how Arteta is going to get us top 4, no logical inconsistency though because Arteta improved us to 5th from our worst league performance in decades Biggest mistake Weng made was finishing 3rd/2nd/5th in his final years, if he'd finished 8th then got us 5th everyone would have loved him because he is improving according to your logic

 

[SA Gunner]

I don't know what to say to that. I gave you clear evidence in that example not based on opinion. If Auba had gone to Barca and been anything other outstanding in his end product then you would have had a case.

Most of those on here that criticise Arteta for not being good enough are posters I greatly respect like @albakos, @Macho, @Trilly and many others. They're mainly evidenced based posters and far being cultist.

You need to name more posters that give genuinely high quality critique and Arteta should be removed content, because I struggle to find thought provoking stuff there. Instead I see the same old tired talking points repeated ad nauseum... because again, its not about making a clear argument, its about being right.

Where this forum remains top quality are the contributions made by ones who stay closer to the quality on the field of play, analysis on the style of play being implemented, players targeted and bringing information (transfers, news, etc) to the table. Add general banter to that mix and you can just about survive out here.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

You need to name more posters that give genuinely high quality critique and Arteta should be removed content, because I struggle to find thought provoking stuff there. Instead I see the same old tired talking points repeated ad nauseum... because again, its not about making a clear argument, its about being right.

Where this forum remains top quality are the contributions made by ones who stay closer to the quality on the field of play, analysis on the style of play being implemented, players targeted and bringing information (transfers, news, etc) to the table. Add general banter to that mix and you can just about survive out here.

All you're going to hear this season if we do fairly well is how we've spent more money than anyone else over the past couple of years to counteract any credit being given to the manager.

Likely that will be a factually accurate statement but that'll be thrown around without any context, such as the base our squad was at compared to Man City / Liverpool or wage bill etc. Cherry picking certain stats without showing the wider or more nuanced context they exist in.

It's like playing tennis without a net. If Arteta gets top 3/4 he can get put down for being a chequebook manager (and it's really the players quality doing it anyway, not him. He certainly won't be allowed any credit for good recruits that'll be the work of Edu, but if there are crap signings they'll be Arteta's picks) We can have a nice side dish of whining about how unfair it was that previous managers didn't get the same financial backing and Arteta was undeserving of it and how Wenger / Emery would have done it better anyway, so it's not something to give him credit for anyway. Luckiest manager ever etc.

If we finish outside top 4 there's the legit criticism of him failing to achieve the minimum objective even with financial backing.

He'll get stick either way from the people who have it in for him, whether it's deserved or not. That groundwork has already been laid by them. It's just a waiting game to see which avenue of criticism they go down.

It's got nothing to do with how good a poster someone is, how intelligent someone they are or their level of football knowledge. Often intelligent people who have a good knowledge of a subject are the best at forming an emotional opinion and finding reasons to justify it by using out of context stats or cleverly wording things to give a surface level fair take, when it's actually anything but.

 

[jones]

@Dokaka gave some pretty mild praise to Arteta as far as I read. Basically he didn't do a bad job last season and with a number of caveats about his suitability for the job in the long term.

It's not like he was fawning over Arteta.

"He didn't do a bad job" is enough to be considered fawning when the job has been as terrible as it is. Like when people say Hitler wasn't all bad, he built the Autobahn they aren't technically fawning either.

 

[Trilly]

All I really do on here is rehash/remix old Arteta takes.

I just come here to fight.

 

[jones]

The Aubameyang decision was taken and the reasoning for the decision making is clear to decipher. Whether you or I like the decision taken is immaterial. How we grade the decision taken is also immaterial, and it should not play a role in the grading of the manager. It is the manager's perogative to take those decisions and he will be judged accordingly based on the black and white results attained through that decision.

I'm not following. The decision shouldn't play a role in evaluating the manager because it's his prerogative, but he should be judged by his results - a) how does that compute and b) why should I not judge the manager for decisions like what he did with Aubameyang?

I'll freely admit I overdo it with the criticism of Arteta at times, you're way off about calling it a "cult" though. People are frustrated with the shoddy state of our football or the embarrassing stuff happening off the pitch and they come here to vent, where's the connection to a cult?

 

[Makingtrax]

You need to name more posters that give genuinely high quality critique and Arteta should be removed content, because I struggle to find thought provoking stuff there. Instead I see the same old tired talking points repeated ad nauseum... because again, its not about making a clear argument, its about being right.

Where this forum remains top quality are the contributions made by ones who stay closer to the quality on the field of play, analysis on the style of play being implemented, players targeted and bringing information (transfers, news, etc) to the table. Add general banter to that mix and you can just about survive out here.

You mean like the Athletic. Art de Roche constantly showing freeze frames of how creative Arteta's attack is. If that's the case though why have we scored so few goals. Liverpool have scored half as much again, 33 more. Leicester scored more than us and they finished mid table. Those are the real statistics.

I remember on here during 15/16 season people saying Arsène couldn't defend, using freeze frames to show the defence in disarray. Yet they had the fewest clean sheets and second least goals against at the end of the season. On field analysis by so called experts can be very misleading.

Look, I know you want Arteta to do well, but acknowledging that he hasn't done very well so far is not a bad thing, it's just realistic. The fact that Conte could turn around a similar club in just a few weeks, shows what can be done. Arsenal is out investing City at the moment, so maybe it will pay off. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

"He didn't do a bad job" is enough to be considered fawning when the job has been as terrible as it is. Like when people say Hitler wasn't all bad, he built the Autobahn they aren't technically fawning either.

Yeah, but I think when we're drawing some kind of analogy between how Arteta and bloody Hitler are perceived, it's kind of adding to my overall point

 

[Trilly]

If only we could do this consistently eh! We wouldn’t have bottled 4th

Still a joke that people call that performance peak Artetaball lol, not only because we lost, but because the player that made the goal happen got hounded out of the club.

A good goal but if that’s peak Artetaball then that just sums up the problem really.