Mikel Arteta: Managerial Royalty

[MartiSaka]

So top four is an achievement now?

The fact that you are using top four as a benchmark is indicative of how far the standards have fallen at the club. The very same top four that was the subject of jokes when Wenger called it a trophy, a decade ago.

You can look beyond qualification for top four as a marker, and instead look at the performances and statistics around those performances. And if that isnt your interest, then a simple eye test will give you the answers you are looking for.

Dont make the mistake that rival fans and pundits make. Use your eyes and analyse the work done. The structures in place in the first team right now doesnt need a top four finish to justify how solid it is, and will continue to be.

Well I am happy to look at the statistics from the previous three seasons and they were generally as poor or poorer than our league position. Our stats/play was no better than our position suggested. People are claiming the jury is out on arteta, we are going to continue to dominate like we are currently. All I am saying is I would like to see a dominate season or two (not 7 games) before declaring him to be the goat. Arsenal fans often tend to jump the gun.

 

[SA Gunner]

Well I am happy to look at the statistics from the previous three seasons and they were generally as poor or poorer than our league position. Our stats/play was no better than our position suggested. People are claiming the jury is out on arteta, we are going to continue to dominate like we are currently. All I am saying is I would like to see a dominate season or two (not 7 games) before declaring him to be the goat. Arsenal fans often tend to jump the gun.

If you think its just 7 games, then you havent been paying attention.

And forget about reactionary postings online. The majority of football fans are quite illiterate when it comes to analysing the strengths of a team. I mean people here think that Conte is an elite level manager at the level of Pep and Klopp because "he wins leagues wherever he goes". This is not how you measure the strength of a manager or football team, its far more detailed than that.

Let me be bold and make a prediction that you can hold onto. Arsenal will falter yes, there will be moments when things will not look good this season. But from me just looking into the foundations right now, and beyond 7 games, it goes a season back. We are going to do well this season. Hold on to this paragraph and lets revisit in May.

 

[MartiSaka]

So top four is an achievement now?

The fact th. at you are using top four as a benchmark is indicative of how far the standards have fallen at the club. The very same top four that was the subject of jokes when Wenger called it a trophy, a decade ago.

Here's the bad news in advance. Once we back in top four, the argument will be the title or the champions league as the mark. And that we shouldnt blow our load.

You can and should look beyond qualification for top four as a marker, and instead look at the performances and statistics around those performances. And if that isnt your interest, then a simple eye test will give you the answers you are looking for.

Dont make the mistake that rival fans and pundits make, they are looking for any and every excuse to diminish the work that is being done at the club. Use your eyes and analyse the work done, because its beyond technical metrics now. The structures in place in the first team right now doesnt need a top four finish to justify how solid it is, and

If you think its just 7 games, then you havent been paying attention.

And forget about reactionary postings online. The majority of football fans are quite illiterate when it comes to analysing the strengths of a team. I mean people here think that Conte is an elite level manager at the level of Pep and Klopp because "he wins leagues wherever he goes". This is not how you measure the strength of a manager or football team, its far more detailed than that.

Let me be bold and make a prediction that you can hold onto. Arsenal will falter yes, there will be moments when things will not look good this season. But from me just looking into the foundations right now, and beyond 7 games, it goes a season back. We are going to do well this season. Hold on to this paragraph and lets revisit in May.

We were not dominate last season; I felt we more determined and tenacious than previous yrs. In many games we held onto 1-0 results against mid and lower level teams with a low block in the final 30 mins. We showed a lot of character to win those games but we were not playing with the control of this season. Sp**s expected stats destroyed our expected stats last season (if we saying stats not results are the indicator); we were the 5th best side.

 

[MartiSaka]

If you think its just 7 games, then you havent been paying attention.

And forget about reactionary postings online. The majority of football fans are quite illiterate when it comes to analysing the strengths of a team. I mean people here think that Conte is an elite level manager at the level of Pep and Klopp because "he wins leagues wherever he goes". This is not how you measure the strength of a manager or football team, its far more detailed than that.

Let me be bold and make a prediction that you can hold onto. Arsenal will falter yes, there will be moments when things will not look good this season. But from me just looking into the foundations right now, and beyond 7 games, it goes a season back. We are going to do well this season. Hold on to this paragraph and lets revisit in May.

I hope you are right and it’s looking good currently. But until it comes to fruition and we play with this level of dominance across the season, you can’t claim arteta to be the goat. And of the claim that the performance levels don’t need to be backed up with league position, I disagree.

 

[Deleted member 102404]

How about he wins something and improves on the fact that he is the fish among big 6 managers and improves on being bottom of Big 6 table in terms of points off other top 6 teams. To me loyalty is won by accomplishment and until Arteta wins league or CL he gets no loyalty. If after the time and money he doesn't at the least get 4th place he shouldn't get fired they should lock him the Tower.

Loyalty is won by accomplishment?
TBH that’s a very odd way of looking at things.

I don’t think we should be loyal to any manager or player. You shouldn’t be loyal to Arteta even if he wins the league for the next 10 yrs.

Misplaced loyalty when it comes to players and managers is probably why there is so much friction and factions when discussing them.

The club is the only thing we remain loyal to and that should not be based on what we win.

 

[MartiSaka]

Loyalty is won by accomplishment?
TBH that’s a very odd way of looking at things.

I don’t think we should be loyal to any manager or player. You shouldn’t be loyal to Arteta even if he wins the league for the next 10 yrs.

Misplaced loyalty when it comes to players and managers is probably why there is so much friction and factions when discussing them.

The club is the only thing we remain loyal to and that should not be based on what we win.

I will be loyal to arteta at a level far greater than Ty is to wenger, if we win the next 10 PLs.

 

[db10_therza]

The way I read it was Arteta has been given more financial backing than Wenger, which I'd largely agree with tbh, but in context of the other big spenders I don't think its outlandish spending by any means, and he's clearly getting results.

Its also important to remember that Wenger did choose to take the path of lower spend for the good of the club during the later years, to enable the move to the new stadium - a sacrifice of personal glory for the good of the future of the club, which is absolutely legendary, but was his choice. If we were still at highbury, he'd have more access to funds and may have won many more titles but we'd be worse off long term.

One of the things I feel gets overlooked a bit is how much the GFC screwed over Wenger. He was incredibly good with numbers- he didn’t explicitly “choose” to be poor, he choose to make Arsenal better in the long term. At 2008-9 Arsenal were as much a real estate company as it was a football club. The GFC meant we had to write down about 20% of the value of the entire Highbury sq development and other bits and bobs we built around the emirates. If we did the whole thing a few years earlier Arsène would have had more money to play with. A few years later and he would have benefited from much lower interest rates / debt repayments. He got screwed basically.

 

[drippin]

Dont make the mistake that rival fans and pundits make, they are looking for any and every excuse to diminish the work that is being done at the club. Use your eyes and analyse the work done, because its beyond technical metrics now. The structures in place in the first team right now doesnt need a top four finish to justify how solid it is, and will continue to be.

Tbh objective and relatively wise rival fans like Goldbridge seem to be scared ****less about how the project is going at Arsenal.

All the work that has been done to get rid of deadwood, getting a young team performing very well and getting the fans behind the club again after all the toxicity and hopelessness etc.

All this is dismissed here as failures "Edu is the worst at selling in a covid market", "Arteta has used unlimited money", "it's only at least a year of on average great performances".

The job has been humongous to get to this point with some understandably rough times at points.

 

[Makingtrax]

Arsène´s legacy is not up for discussion.

no one is comparing the 2, Arsène's conditions were completely different. He did wonderfully. Arteta is doing great.

Is a discussion that is well solved and done between us fans. If you don't agree with the above statement you are just misinformed.

let's move on and agree that Arteta was the right choice for the club at this moment in time, and the time and money that was handed to him has paid off.

Oh man, Maradon, Arsenes legacy is up for discussion every single day on this forum. "Arteta's record against the big 6 is better than Arsène's", "Arsène only had success because of George Graham's back 4", "Arteta doesn't continue with rubbish players like Arsène did". Not content with abusing the great man, the gloating about how much better Arteta is, is continuous. And these are the same people who told us how sh!t continuous top 4 was and how fantastic it will be now if Arteta manages it once at his 4th attempt.

I've always thought top 4 was fantastic for a club like Arsenal, and unlike most haven't changed my mind. If Arteta does manage it this year I shall be pleased. But he really should be able to manage with this sort of investment what Arsène did every single year on a shoestring.

 

[db10_therza]

If you think its just 7 games, then you havent been paying attention.

And forget about reactionary postings online. The majority of football fans are quite illiterate when it comes to analysing the strengths of a team. I mean people here think that Conte is an elite level manager at the level of Pep and Klopp because "he wins leagues wherever he goes". This is not how you measure the strength of a manager or football team, its far more detailed than that.

Let me be bold and make a prediction that you can hold onto. Arsenal will falter yes, there will be moments when things will not look good this season. But from me just looking into the foundations right now, and beyond 7 games, it goes a season back. We are going to do well this season. Hold on to this paragraph and lets revisit in May.

- @SA Gunner : Leading Indicator
- Current Points Tally: Coincident Indicator
- Final Position: Lagging Indicator
- The rest of you: Dusted Indicators

 

[drippin]

Oh man, Maradon, Arsenes legacy is up for discussion every single day on this forum. "Arteta's record against the big 6 is better than Arsène's", "Arsène only had success because of George Graham's back 4", "Arteta doesn't continue with rubbish players like Arsène did". Not content with abusing the great man, the gloating about how much better Arteta is, is continuous. And these are the same people who told us how sh!t continuous top 4 was and how fantastic it will be now if Arteta manages it once at his 4th attempt.

I've always thought top 4 was fantastic for a club like Arsenal, and unlike most haven't changed my mind. If Arteta does manage it this year I shall be pleased. But he really should be able to manage with this sort of investment what Arsène did every single year on a shoestring.

I also always have thought top 4 was fantastic, never ridiculed it. It's too bad Arsène failed it in his last two seasons along with the clear holes in the midfield (depended on injury-prone players) for example that was never addressed in his later years here.

Do you think it matters anything how you continuously bring up Arsène, compare him, and never acknowledge he could have done anything wrong during his career? I can tell you, and you have seen it, that I banter you a lot just because you're so boneheaded about it.

It might have something to do why you see Arsène brought up everywhere you go if you bring it up constantly yourself, and people are annoyed so they react to it.

 

[Macho]

Oh man, Maradon, Arsenes legacy is up for discussion every single day on this forum. "Arteta's record against the big 6 is better than Arsène's", "Arsène only had success because of George Graham's back 4", "Arteta doesn't continue with rubbish players like Arsène did". Not content with abusing the great man, the gloating about how much better Arteta is, is continuous. And these are the same people who told us how sh!t continuous top 4 was and how fantastic it will be now if Arteta manages it once at his 4th attempt.

I've always thought top 4 was fantastic for a club like Arsenal, and unlike most haven't changed my mind. If Arteta does manage it this year I shall be pleased. But he really should be able to manage with this sort of investment what Arsène did every single year on a shoestring.

Arsène did a great job, some didn't like him. Arteta is doing a good job some (like me) don't like him, people are gonna be people man.

My only annoyance is some are completely incapable of saying good job without putting else somebody down like you pointed out, with Wenger and Laca in particular baring their brunt of this. Xhaka until his undeniable performances this season too.

I'm certain my patience with the players and short temper with Arteta annoys many on here too, it is what it is.

 

[Makingtrax]

I also always have thought top 4 was fantastic,

Lol.

It's too bad Arsène failed it in his last two seasons

Yeah, he failed to overcome a very determined and sustained 2 year campaign by fans to remove him. I'll grant you that. Wonder how Arteta would cope with stadium boycotts, protests, social media rants and toxic fans. He hasn't got top 4 yet with a massive amount of money and the fans fawning all over him.

 

[Makingtrax]

Arsène did a great job, some didn't like him. Arteta is doing a good job some (like me) don't like him, people are gonna be people man.

My only annoyance is some are completely incapable of saying good job without putting else somebody down like you pointed out, with Wenger and Laca in particular baring their brunt of this. Xhaka until his undeniable performances this season too.

I'm certain my patience with the players and short temper with Arteta annoys many on here too, it is what it is.

Yeah, I have no problem with Arteta, he's not my kind of manager, but it looks like he's learnt a lot and is getting fantastic financial support. Results are coming at last, and if all his zealots would stop all this crowing, hunting down other people's opinions, and worse, constant put downs of Wenger, it would be all good.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

I have shown those xG for and against charts even recently, along with the xG for. And against charts for this season, where we are only behind City. Even the eye test tells a clear message that is reinforcing what the stats say.

It has been a steady development, and the last half or so of last season gave a huge rise in xG compared to the earlier season. Apart from the injury-crisis where three of our important defensive starters (Partey, Tierney and Tomiyasu) got injured simultaneously, without proper backups, and there was a dip.

This season we have a stronger team, and proper backups to both fullbacks. Sambi is a year older, and we can use Xhaka as DMF in emergency because we have more CMF's.

There is nothing suggesting that there will be a dip. Even Brentford, who has had 5-2-1 results in their past 8 home games before us, was dominated without Ødegaard and Zinchenko (plus ESR, Elneny, Cedric and Nelson who could help with UEL matches).

Everything is going great with the club currently, and suggests it will only improve. Results can sometimes change, but the pattern is clear.

I do agree that most of the metrics have been pointing towards an Arsenal resurgence for quite some time.

xG and other stats are fine as indicators and I do think there is merit to it but I don't think most fans are overly interested in stuff like that. Most fans only really care about league position each season and probably also the eye test.

I do think our underlying stats will start to dip a bit though in the coming weeks, playing better teams more regularly. Our fixture list has been quite kind to date. That's not going to carry on forever.

If we can bully the likes of Sp**s and Liverpool as we have done to other weaker teams this season then I'll be seriously impressed.

I'm content at the moment anyway. I struggle to see how we don't get top 4 this season and that was my objective for this season.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

Oh man, Maradon, Arsenes legacy is up for discussion every single day on this forum. "Arteta's record against the big 6 is better than Arsène's", "Arsène only had success because of George Graham's back 4", "Arteta doesn't continue with rubbish players like Arsène did". Not content with abusing the great man, the gloating about how much better Arteta is, is continuous. And these are the same people who told us how sh!t continuous top 4 was and how fantastic it will be now if Arteta manages it once at his 4th attempt.

I've always thought top 4 was fantastic for a club like Arsenal, and unlike most haven't changed my mind. If Arteta does manage it this year I shall be pleased. But he really should be able to manage with this sort of investment what Arsène did every single year on a shoestring.

Arsène's legacy is set in stone. I'd wager that for his achievements and the character of the man no-one in the history of Arsenal Football Club is more beloved in 2022 than him.

I said that Arsène inherited Graham's great back 4/5. Which is an objective fact. I even complimented Arsène on how he made them more professional and so extended their careers and also how he gave them confidence to actually play a bit. Somehow you've turned that into ''Arsène only had success because of Graham's back four''

You're basically manufacturing disputes at this point so it allows you to bring out the Arsène Defence League stuff constantly

 

[db10_therza]

You're basically manufacturing disputes at this point so it allows you to bring out the Arsène Defence League stuff constantly

Allow it man. Leave him be. @Makingtrax is basically this…

 

[drippin]

I do think our underlying stats will start to dip a bit though in the coming weeks, playing better teams more regularly. Our fixture list has been quite kind to date. That's not going to carry on forever.

If we can bully the likes of Sp**s and Liverpool as we have done to other weaker teams this season then I'll be seriously impressed.

I'm content at the moment anyway. I struggle to see how we don't get top 4 this season and that was my objective for this season.

We played very very well against even City in the 2nd game of the season. But got red and lost 1-2 at the last minute.

Now this season the difference against City basically is that we got two City level players in addition, a top CB and Vieira. City basically "only" got Haaland when considering they sold Jesus and Zinchenko to us?

I have good confidence that we put up a good fight against even City this season, because of the trajectory of team performances in the past year and the additions to the squad. Haaland of course is a huge difference maker even by himself and can ruin any potential good result no matter the performance.

People talk about us having very easy fixtures thus far. But we have won Palace and Brentford tough away games with ease. We have won Fulham who are 6th in the league. We have played United away. Only Bournemouth away and maybe Leicester (this season) home has been very easy opponent. The last one is Villa win at home, but even they're getting to their level now as they drew City 1-1 at home recently which was four days after our game.

The opponents haven't been as easy as people suggest, and still we are 2nd in xG performance and top of the league.

 

[Macho]

Yeah, I have no problem with Arteta, he's not my kind of manager, but it looks like he's learnt a lot and is getting fantastic financial support. Results are coming at last, and if all his zealots would stop all this crowing, hunting down other people's opinions, and worse, constant put downs of Wenger, it would be all good.

I think he's a b*m who got away with too much, successfully dragged the standards down and doesn't get questioned enough (publicly) so it's difficult for me to rate and I ain't trying to have my hopes crushed again. His fans can say what they like I don't really give a sh*t my opinion is my opinion.

To be fair to him, he's been winning and largely making the right decisions so I can't really chat sh*t. He's doing everything I expected from an Arsenal manager 3 years ago in his own micro d*ck way and I just have to respect it. We need to let the boy cook for sure.

 

[Makingtrax]

Arsène's legacy is set in stone. I'd wager that for his achievements and the character of the man no-one in the history of Arsenal Football Club is more beloved in 2022 than him.

I said that Arsène inherited Graham's great back 4/5. Which is an objective fact. I even complimented Arsène on how he made them more professional and so extended their careers and also how he gave them confidence to actually play a bit. Somehow you've turned that into ''Arsène only had success because of Graham's back four''

You're basically manufacturing disputes at this point so it allows you to bring out the Arsène Defence League stuff constantly

Nobody's manufacturing anything, and its not an objective fact. Lol. You went into the Merci Arsène thread yesterday to write this. Clearly to diminish Arsène's acheivements by saying our early trophies were 100% built on George Graham's back line. Why else?

But it shouldn't be underestimated the influence Graham had on the early years Wenger side. I think there was only 18 months between Graham leaving and Arsène taking over. That backline that helped us win our early trophies was 100% Graham's unit, with Arsène's level of professionalism added to the mix.

Graham was a good manager and if you think he deserves more attention why not start a thread for him. But don't mention it was Don Howe who brought in players like Tony Adams and David Rocastle on which he built his success.