Mikel Arteta: Aston La Vista To The Title?

[Rex Stone]

Liverpool work quite well as a benchmark for judging the process as their squad was also a mess with loads of players that just weren't good enough and had to be moved on.

Spoiler: Klopp v Arteta Timeline

Pilot: Mikel actually matches (or betters) Klopp in terms of their first half season. Mikel won the FA Cup while Klopp reached and lost the EL and EFL cup finals.

Season 1: Klopp spends 71M Arteta spends 77M
Klopp's first full season they qualified for the CL with 76 points. Arteta spent 77M and we know how that ended. Obviously one guy is world class and the other was a novice so you kind of ignore the difference in outcome. Should mention that Liverpool had no European football which played a big part in them getting to fourth.

Season 2: Klopp spends 156M Arteta spends 150M.
We're now two full seasons and 220M in. Klopp reaches the CL final in their debut season but doesn't actually improve in the league, still maintains 4th though with 75 points. We finish 5th with 69 points and no European competition or deep cup runs.

Season 3: Klopp spends 164M Arteta spends 119M (and counting).
I'm gonna assume that we sign another player or two. That takes both managers to three years in and about 400M spent. Klopp S3 was a thing of beauty, game of thrones levels, 97 points in the league and a CL win.

Obviously Klopp is the benchmark and trying to match him is like like trying to match the first season of Prison Break but still we could have been closer.

400M spent and three full seasons is a lot by anyone's standards now. If Klopp S3 ended with 97 points and a CL final then expecting ~80 points and maybe a cup final for Arteta S3 is completely fair for an Arsenal manager. The rookie excuses don't really cut it, at some point you have to sink or swim.

The only thing in favour of Arteta I’d say is that I feel like there’s been inflation in transfer fees since even 2015 when Klopp took over. Also I’d say that the spending has been offset for them by selling well.

Now this could be Arteta’s fault but we’ve struggled to make big sales for decades.

This is our record departures and Ox is still first. You can also bump everyone else below Alexis off that list because his “sale” was a 30M accounting trick which we simultaneously spent on Mkhi.



I mean Nicolas Anelka is still our second biggest sale and that’s from the last millennium ffs.

Meanwhile all of Liverpool’s bar Alonso have been since 2010 and their biggest probably covers our entire top 10.



Don’t think it’s such a huge issue now with the top 6 revenues but it definitely was.

 

[Trilly]

There's not a chance I'd read your post but you deserve the respect of me reading it.

How should I respond to this?

 

[samspade]

@Trilly I think it’s a good comparison too. However, signings at Liverpool are more out of Klopp’s hands aren’t they? Ofc Edu has to get credit (or discredit) for our signings too.

 

[Trilly]

Gross spend, Klopp spent c£400m, Arteta c£350m in the first 3 years.

According to transfermarkt
Klopp
16/17 - 72m
17/18 - 156m
18/19 - 164m
Total - 392m
Arteta
20/21 - 77m
21/22 - 151m
22/23 - 119m
Total - 347m

so more like £50m less than Klopp.

I'm really giving you the benefit of the doubt here but this is starting to smell of agenda.
We're highly likely to sign another player and get close to the 400M mark, even as things stand the spends are similar enough for a fair comparison.

As for squad strength when they took over, pointless debate as it's subjective.

I think our squad need a massive overhaul, you think Liverpools was worse - /shrugs.

If it's a pointless debate then why try to refute the point in the first place. Again it's giving hints of agenda here. Both squads had a few quality players but the majority of players were mediocre. We finished 5th the season before Mikel took over, they had finished 6th when Klopp came in.

 

[Trilly]

Add in that prices for players increase over the years as well

They've just bought very well tbh. They bought Salah for 35M when top wingers were already going for 50+ regularly. I think a VVD type player still goes for the ~75 they paid for him back then. Same applies to Allison at ~60M and Fabinho at ~50M. The inflation for top quality players hasn't gone up that much really, Jota just last year was 40M but I'm sure people would have been happy if we bought him for 50-60.

The only thing in favour of Arteta I’d say is that I feel like there’s been inflation in transfer fees since even 2015 when Klopp took over. Also I’d say that the spending has been offset for them by selling well.

Same as above. Also I know we sell poorly so I've only compared how much they've spent to be fair on Mikel (even though he's contributed to some of the issues).

 

[dka1]

Well this has been an interesting read for sure, I was literally chomping down prawn crackers whilst going through the posts, bare jokes lol.....

I think it's very hard to deny that Arteta could easily have gone at numerous points during the 20/21 season. Frankly the first half of the season was a complete disaster and the semi-final loss to Villarreal wasn't great either.

Even the most ardent and staunch Arteta defenders would find it hard to give justifications for some of what went down that season.

Also a lot of the problems I've had with Arteta in the past were due to his man management, but I'll admit that it was probably something he was learning and I don't think he intentionally tried to alienate players, but rather found it hard to include everybody when something was on the line. I still think he did some weird things (like trying to offer Mustafi a new contract or starting Willian over Pepe for so long), and I'll still be judging this season too, but I think he's learning to manage players much better which is a good thing to see.

Last season I do have to say that there was a lot of good that I saw, especially during the 2nd half of the season and it did make me reconsider my stance about Arteta. I definitely started to believe that I got it wrong with respect to my judgement of his ability. The collapse at the end of last season was crushing though I can't lie, and I'm glad I took the summer off from posting and I tried not to think too much about Arsenal for my personal stress levels.

This season we look tasty (prime rib-eye steak tasty). Again it's something that even staunch Arteta-outers would find hard to deny.

The recruitment has also been very good this season and whilst I don't think I'll ever fully fully agree that £50M on Ben White was necessary, he's certainly a very good player and we have an extremely impressive back line, mostly thanks to Edteta.

The way we're set up now looks so good, to the point where I'm GLADLY eating humble pie because I didn't think this is something Arteta and Edu could achieve, if they make top 3/4 this season whilst continuing to play convincing football then they'd have completely proved people like me wrong and I'd be very happy for it.

Finally the spending; ok sure, we've spent quite a bit over the last two seasons, I don't know if it's quite "the most in the league" because I'm sure Utd have spent more than us (I could be wrong), but at this point I can accept it because we've actually spent the money properly for the most part.

Looking how the team is now set up, it's hard to deny that we've made some good investments into the squad (atleast for Arteta's style) and as manager Arteta has had a direct hand in this and deserves credit for it.

 

[Trilly]

@Trilly I think it’s a good comparison too. However, signings at Liverpool are more out of Klopp’s hands aren’t they? Ofc Edu has to get credit (or discredit) for our signings too.

I believe Klopp okays the profile of player they go for whereas Arteta is a lot more involved it seems. Either way they're both being given the (type of) player they want so it's a fair comparison no?

Naturally Arteta gets more praise for our signings than somebody like Klopp would. The only Arteta signing I've had an issue with was Willian.

 

[Entropics]

Feel Klopp always comes up whenever Arteta hits a games managed or won milestone, all this Klopp stuff you can find 2 years ago, probably by the same posters.

It's funny because the guy he's trying to imitate is Guardiola, not Klopp.

 

[samspade]

I dunno how you factor in inflation here but they've just bought very well tbh. They bought Salah for 35M when top wingers were already going for 50+ regularly.

Same as above. Also I know we sell poorly so I've only compared how much they've spent to be fair on Mikel (even though he's contributed to some of the issues).

Inflation does make a difference. There’s no way you’re getting a pl forward with mane’s profile for 36 million now.

But it’s basically impossible to quantify what difference anything makes exactly as we’re already in very vague territory.

I feel like the best you can say is that Klopp and Liverpool’s transfer team have done incredible work and Klopp is one of the greatest coaches in history and Arteta and his team have done fairly good work (buying) in the market so far and he’s done decently. But we still need to wait and see what Arsenal and Arteta become.

I do think that people have to accept that doing what Klopp did again amongst this top 6 competition would be one of the great pl achievements though.

 

[samspade]

I believe Klopp okays the profile of player they go for whereas Arteta is a lot more involved it seems. Either way they're both being given the (type of) player they want so it's a fair comparison no?

Naturally Arteta gets more praise for our signings than somebody like Klopp would. The only Arteta signing I've had an issue with was Willian.

Well I don’t really think you can compare manager’s transfer windows with 100% confidence. I think you have to think about it as the manager plus the recruitment team.

If a manager keeps making good signings over multiple clubs then I think they build up evidence in favour of their talent id ability. But the smaller the period the harder it is to compare.

I would talk about it as Klopp plus Liverpool’s recruitment team vs Arteta and Arsenal’s.

 

[samspade]

Feel Klopp always comes up whenever Arteta hits a games managed or won milestone, all this Klopp stuff you can find 2 years ago, probably by the same posters.

It's funny because the guy he's trying to imitate is Guardiola, not Klopp.

Well, he’s trying to get to Guardiola football on a Klopp budget. If we could just forget about our agendas it’s honestly a fascinating thing to watch.

 

[Trilly]

Inflation does make a difference. There’s no way you’re getting a pl forward with mane’s profile for 36 million now.

Inflation exists but it's definitely overstated, they sold a finished Benteke for 28M that summer, they just sell and buy very well.

Mane was 38M in summer 2016. He was 24 with 21 league goals in two seasons.
Jota was 40M last summer. He was also 24 with 16 league goals in two seasons.

I feel like the best you can say is that Klopp and Liverpool’s transfer team have done incredible work and Klopp is one of the greatest coaches in history and Arteta and his team have done fairly good work (buying) in the market so far and he’s done decently. But we still need to wait and see what Arsenal and Arteta become.

I do think that people have to accept that doing what Klopp did again amongst this top 6 competition would be one of the great pl achievements though.

Well that's why they're the benchmark but at similar stages in the product and with similar gross spends it's time to bump up the expectations a bit and get closer to that benchmark.

 

[Deleted member 102404]

I'm really giving you the benefit of the doubt here but this is starting to smell of agenda.
We're highly likely to sign another player and get close to the 400M mark, even as things stand the spends are similar enough for a fair comparison.

If it's a pointless debate then why try to refute the point in the first place. Again it's giving hints of agenda here. Both squads had a few quality players but the majority of players were mediocre. We finished 5th the season before Mikel took over, they had finished 6th when Klopp came in.

Not everyone who disagrees with you has an agenda.
So far Arteta has spent less than Klopp by about £50m. Sure he might spend more before the window is out but right now, no.
I think Liverpools squad was much better than ours at the respective times. I specifically made the point at the time that 20 plus players needed to shipped out of our squad.

 

[samspade]

Not everyone who disagrees with you has an agenda.

Everyone who disagrees with me has an agenda

 

[Trilly]

Well I don’t really think you can compare manager’s transfer windows with 100% confidence. I think you have to think about it as the manager plus the recruitment team.

If a manager keeps making good signings over multiple clubs then I think they build up evidence in favour of their talent id ability. But the smaller the period the harder it is to compare.

I would talk about it as Klopp plus Liverpool’s recruitment team vs Arteta and Arsenal’s.

I don't really get this, is this an allowance for Klopp or an allowance for Mikel?

Both managers have made (mostly) good signings three years into their projects so i'm not really sure why this is being turned into a caveat?

 

[samspade]

I don't really get this, is this an allowance for Klopp or an allowance for Mikel?

Both managers have made (mostly) good signings three years into their projects so i'm not really sure why this is being turned into a caveat?

It’s not an allowance either way, it’s a recognition of imperfect data. We know both managers are in part responsible for the respective club’s spending and they get some credit for that but we can’t really know exactly how much credit. Both team’s stats departments will be heavily involved but how involved? once a short list is achieved how much say does each manager get? It’s not clear.

You’d have to say Klopp’s talent id skills are likely very good because he has a body of work from Dortmund but I think Arteta would have to prove it elsewhere before you got confident.

 

[samspade]

Well that's why they're the benchmark but at similar stages in the product and with similar gross spends it's time to bump up the expectations a bit and get closer to that benchmark.

Ofc but if we play scintillating football and get third for the next three seasons you aren’t going to keep ****ting on him for not being Klopp are you? The situations aren’t identical and Klopp’s made a legendary contribution.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

I think Arteta is either going to make it at the top, top level or he'll ultimately be a failed manager.

I don't think there's anything in between with him. Judging by the way he wants to play football and the need he has for good footballers he's not going to be a Moyes or Hodgson who overachieves with decent / journeymen footballers. He works best with top players or at least top talents.

Kind of makes sense, he's stubborn and single minded like Arsène but very Pep like in terms of the ball he wants to play and the player quality level he needs to do it.

Not surprising that they are probably his two biggest influences.

 

[Trilly]

Not everyone who disagrees with You has an agenda.

It's more the fact you're being disingenuous in your posting.

Splitting hairs over a 50M difference that is very likely to become irrelevant by the end of the window and then raising a point only to call it irrelevant once I refuted it.

I think Liverpools squad was much better than ours at the respective times.

Spoiler: Liverpool 15/16 squad

Spoiler: Arsenal 19/20 squad

Can you explain what makes the squad Klopp inherited 'much better' than the one Mikel inherited? You need to be genuinely honest because you're about to label yourself as clearly having an agenda here

 

[pigge]

Gross spend, Klopp spent c£400m, Arteta c£350m in the first 3 years.

According to transfermarkt
Klopp
16/17 - 72m
17/18 - 156m
18/19 - 164m
Total - 392m
Arteta
20/21 - 77m
21/22 - 151m
22/23 - 119m
Total - 347m

so more like £50m less than Klopp.

As for squad strength when they took over, pointless debate as it's subjective.
I think our squad need a massive overhaul, you think Liverpools was worse - /shrugs.

Klopps net transfers are way way lower though,
16/17: +++€5mil
17/18: +++€10mil
18/19: --- €140 mil

155mil net spend

Arteta:
20/21 --- $66m
21/22 --- $136m
22/23 --- $108m

310 mil net spend. Arteta spent twice the money.