Club confirm Sven Mislintat leaving Arsenal on February 8

[Trilly]

When Cesc Fabregas was 18, 19, I would play him in a 4-4-2 with Patrick Vieira and I saw it did not work. Then I had the decision to make about letting Patrick go, because Gilberto Silva and Vieira worked, Fabregas and Silva worked, but I could not play Fabregas and Vieira. But Fabregas was 19 and if he did not play I knew he would want to go, so we risked destroying everything, all the work we had put into this player.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...s-fascinating-meeting-Arsenal-manager--I.html

Wenger is a madman.

I mean it paid off, but we're talking Patrick Vieira here!

 

[dashsnow17]

Wenger is a madman.

I mean it paid off, but we're talking Patrick Vieira here!

Young Cesc was out of this world though, we tend to forget that a bit now in light of his slightly less impressive late career. He was phenomenal, plus tbf Vieira had wanted to leave for ages, the writing was on the wall.

 

[Rex Stone]

Wenger is a madman.

I mean it paid off, but we're talking Patrick Vieira here!

The fact it paid off is a vindication of both Arsène and Fàbregas. How many 19 year olds can replace one of the greatest ever midfielders in PL history straight away?

Him being so instrumental in defeating Vieira’s Juventus in 2006 was so cathartic.

Those Cesc years were something else. Why did he have to leave...

 

[Rex Stone]

Still, is this what people expect after having gone (how many years is it again) without a title. He was making these decision in the wake of some serious success yet here people are calling for more chances on youth when we're desperately trying to break back into the top 4 in a league that is only getting more competitive. WTF do people want? To be a feeder club or to be a top club? I mean it isn't like the whole Fabregas/Wilshere thing worked in our favour, is it?

I do agree, it’s a meritocracy. But Guendouzi in particular deserves to be a key player this season on performance alone.

 

[L3T5 PL4Y]

Fabregas was really special. I honestly believe if Wenger could have worked on his positional play he could've become the worlds best midfield playmaker of his generation. An absolute genius talent.

 

[Batman]

That sounds all good for Fabregas and Wilshere, but not everyone are coming out of the youth ranks with a bang. We cannot not afford loosing out on talents like Chelsea did with Salah and De Bruyne. Wenger has always had a good balance of incorporating youth in the senior team

Right but you didn't hear him saying those things when he was at his most successful. When we started to decline then you heard him saying things like I can't sign a player because then you kill Walcott or whomever. I do now about the Carrick example, I'd just read that story a few days ago but that's one isolated example of a generation talent. You tell me with a straight face which of our academy players you know will be Fabregas level. The fact is that we were adding established players every year under Wenger until the Emirates was built. He didn't not buy Wiltord, Kanu, Suker etc. because he was worried about Pennant and Aliadiere and thank goodness because we'd have been much less successful had we gambled on them at the expense of immediate first team success.

And yes, we can't afford to throw away talents like Salah and KDB but none of our academy players are as far along in their development as those 2 and there is most definitely a middle ground between the lunacy that Chelsea engage in and not sacrificing the quality of the first team so you can give a kid a chance. You see what Douzi and Torreira are doing for us at a young age. You saw how Bellerin snatched the job from Debuchy at 19 years of age. If you are good enough to make it here then you will and we didn't rest on our laurels assuming that they would make it but rather they forced the issue though their play and we have more senior options that would have played had they not been ready or not panned out. That's how you have to function as a club if you want to be successful.

PS: Sorry for not replying to everyone individually, too lazy at the moment.

 

[IslingtonBornandbred]

IMO opinion letting Vieira go because of Cesc coming through was an awful decision. Yes, Vieira toyed with a move in the years previously but he's on the record saying during that season he felt the Madrid move had gone and he wanted to stay at Arsenal. Then we got rid of Gilberto as well, as well as a few other invincibles way too early.

IMO, it didn't have to be either or, Vieira was vital and Cesc could have been introduced as well over a period of time. They hardly had enough time to figure out what combinations worked and what didn't. We've had awful combinations over the years since then involving Flamini, Arteta, Ramsey, Coquelin and others. Vieira would have been key in leading those youngsters and maintaining the mentality as would have Gilberto, Kolo Toure and to an extent Pires etc who left because he had the hump because he was substituted in the UCL final and felt he had lost the trust of the manager.

I don't know if it was the wages, a project youth idea or whatever, but it was a bad bad idea letting all those winners and experienced players go so early.

 

[Maybe]

IMO opinion letting Vieira go because of Cesc coming through was an awful decision. Yes, Vieira toyed with a move in the years previously but he's on the record saying during that season he felt the Madrid move had gone and he wanted to stay at Arsenal. Then we got rid of Gilberto as well, as well as a few other invincibles way too early.

IMO, it didn't have to be either or, Vieira was vital and Cesc could have been introduced as well over a period of time. They hardly had enough time to figure out what combinations worked and what didn't. We've had awful combinations over the years since then involving Flamini, Arteta, Ramsey, Coquelin and others. Vieira would have been key in leading those youngsters and maintaining the mentality as would have Gilberto, Kolo Toure and to an extent Pires etc who left because he had the hump because he was substituted in the UCL final and felt he had lost the trust of the manager.

I don't know if it was the wages, a project youth idea or whatever, but it was a bad bad idea letting all those winners and experienced players go so early.

Vieira who already started to decline was replaced by a cheap kid who was one of the best midfield players from 2005-2010, so it's not like we replaced Vieira with some trash. The club did well from 2005-2008/09, but everything after that was just bad.

 

[Batman]

Vieira who already started to decline was replaced by a cheap kid who was one of the best midfield players from 2005-2010, so it's not like we replaced Vieira with some trash. The club did well from 2005-2008/09, but everything after that was just bad.

Yes his play was declining but you cannot discount what having a leader like that means to a club. Adams' play was in sharp decline when Wenger arrived but you ask every single player who came in post Wenger and had a chance to play with Adams about his impact in the dressing room, in instilling the values of the club, in demanding that pride was taken in wearing our shirt and they will all tell you how massive he was in that regard.

Our kids would have benefitted greatly from the stewardship Vieira for a couple of years, even if he wasn't the same physical presence. Fabregas could quite easily have played alongside him in midfield. Same with Gilberto. Now it may well have been a wage issue given the stadium move but you look at every other club that has won the league since we last did and they all had players in their squads who were past their prime but offered invaluable leadership. Hell, we just saw it 18 months or so ago with Mertesacker inspiring the FA Cup victory over Chelsea. It doesn't show up on a stat sheet necessarily but you need leaders beyond just a manager and it's no coincidence that once that was lost you had more and more questionable performances and results cropping up.

 

[Toby]

Pretty sure Havertz will be happy to join and will end up riding the bench for a while no matter what he costs. But yeah Frenkie and De Ligt would make the line up soon.

Squad players in that respect under Ferguson were a different thing and they weren't exactly their to ride the bench. You can have 3/4 players like that but they have to be competitive and now as we're seeing with Emery there are few nailed on starters. But yeah the squad will evolve and be built in his image and a starting line up will begin to emerge at some point. The thing is the squad is still evolving and the greater level of talent we could acquire to keep pushing ahead the better.

pretty sure we're on the same side here, just using different terms.

Seems a squad player to you is anyone not a nailed on/regular starter. To me it's the 3rd choice guys used to fill the squad, but who have to be of enough quality to actually deliver when playing. That's why recruitment of these guys is so fickle and important; maybe even more so than recruiting starters. And when talking about these kind of players I think it's deluded to think young, intl top talent would come here to play a mere squad role.

Now talking about squad players the way you are, meaning the 3 to 4, maybe 5 guys regularly on the bench, a start here and there, whom I would call e.g. "competition players" or "contenders" or something, who are the next names on the teamsheet right after the first XI - it makes sense to think about players like Havertz and Arsenal probably is a bit short in that department and I have to agree it would be nice to see a young winger and a young leftback on the bench among Mkhitaryan and Lichtsteiner.

 

[gunner4lyfe]

Young Cesc was out of this world though, we tend to forget that a bit now in light of his slightly less impressive late career. He was phenomenal, plus tbf Vieira had wanted to leave for ages, the writing was on the wall.

We won nothing during Cesc's time here though so maybe that situation could have been managed better.

 

[celestis]

The fact it paid off is a vindication of both Arséne and Fàbregas. How many 19 year olds can replace one of the greatest ever midfielders in PL history straight away?

Him being so instrumental in defeating Vieira’s Juventus in 2006 was so cathartic.

Those Cesc years were something else. Why did he have to leave...

In someways I don't blame him , must have looked a little bleak at the time , very little investment , he's also witnessed to 3 team mates have their legs broken in don't like it the stuck up em"" which the refs seemed to condone . Pretty sure seeing that a few times makes you fear for you career . I just don't like the way he went about it .

 

[celestis]

Wenger is a madman.

I mean it paid off, but we're talking Patrick Vieira here!

Would have liked to have kept him , not sure Paddy would have liked being phased out though ,was a hard decision . Then again if that lowlife **** hadn't broken Diaby's ankle this might be a different discussion all together.

 

[Garrincha]

It wasn't just Cesc though but a genuine wave of U23 talent breaking through with Robin, Reyes, Kolo, Clichy, Senderos, Aliadiere, Hoyte & Pennant as well.

I remember that game as a kid. It was a breath of fresh air after checking teletext all summer holidays for the Vieira transfer news. His song was sung before the game but not much when we saw glimpses of the new Arsenal.

He was not there either... Sitting out with a 'injury' negotiation with Madrid.

 

[Mark Tobias]

I do agree, it’s a meritocracy. But Guendouzi in particular deserves to be a key player this season on performance alone.

Agree, and he has been. Emery is clearly playing people based on merit. And we're seeing results from it. People are jumping on this youth band wagon big time but the truth is no teams win major silverware with kids. It takes a firm mix of experience and talent. Can you breed some young blood inbetween, yes of course.

 

[scytheavatar]

Wenger is a madman.

I mean it paid off, but we're talking Patrick Vieira here!

Vieira was passed it and a liability for much of 2004/2005, a replacement for him would have been needed Cesc or not.

 

[celestis]

Vieira was passed it and a liability for much of 2004/2005, a replacement for him would have been needed Cesc or not.

Yup a bold move would have been to get Carrick the season before and sell Paddy . Carrick Cesc and Bert would have been an amazing midfield .

 

[L3T5 PL4Y]

If we had Carrick we'd have won a league title at least in that period.

 

[krengon]

Vieira also dismissed Arsenal's chances of success next season, claiming they wouldn't even finish in the top five of the Premiership.

He said: "People should know this is nothing to do with money. I need to leave because I want to win more trophies and I just cannot see that happening at Arsenal. Certainly not over the next few years, anyway.

"Comparing Arsenal to the big clubs in Europe this season is going to be quite ridiculous," he added.

"I do not honestly see Arsenal finishing in the top five in the league - and you can forget the Champions League."

"When I told Arsène Wenger I was leaving, he said to me 'I have £25m to spend on a few players'. My answer was 'Obviously, Mr Wenger, you are not shopping in Harrods. That will only buy you one good player.' Now I have been proved right.

"Arsène Wenger has signed two 'hopeful' players who haven't proved themselves in the Premiership yet. One of them is a boy of 20.

"You can't compete with the best clubs in Europe by making these kind of signings.

"Arsène Wenger is an ambitious manager and he knows deep in his heart that he needs five world-class players to compete among the best in Europe.

"With £25m in the kitty, Arsenal is not a great European club. With that budget they won't even be among the top 20 clubs in Europe."

This was in 2001 when we had one of the best teams in Europe, there was no chance Vieira was sticking around in the emirates era(might have got 1 more season out of him max) and the decision to sell him to make way for Cesc was the right one even with hindsight.

 

[L3T5 PL4Y]

pretty sure we're on the same side here, just using different terms.

Seems a squad player to you is anyone not a nailed on/regular starter. To me it's the 3rd choice guys used to fill the squad, but who have to be of enough quality to actually deliver when playing. That's why recruitment of these guys is so fickle and important; maybe even more so than recruiting starters. And when talking about these kind of players I think it's deluded to think young, intl top talent would come here to play a mere squad role.

Now talking about squad players the way you are, meaning the 3 to 4, maybe 5 guys regularly on the bench, a start here and there, whom I would call e.g. "competition players" or "contenders" or something, who are the next names on the teamsheet right after the first XI - it makes sense to think about players like Havertz and Arsenal probably is a bit short in that department and I have to agree it would be nice to see a young winger and a young leftback on the bench among Mkhitaryan and Lichtsteiner.

Hmmm but in that way having too many squad fillers the way you put it is not a good idea imo. Maybe 2 or 3 versatile players whose performances when called into action are a 7/10 and have a lot of experience and professionalism. Apart from these players everyone should be contending to start.

And no, its not deluded at all. It depends on the player and a particular situation we're talking about like if De Ligt were to come, its almost a certainty he'll become a starter as soon as he adapts to the team given we don't have much better in his position. Same for Frenkie that if he is ready, adapted and performs up to standard he'll get games over say, Xhaka.

A good example for this sort of thing is Tielemans at Monaco. He cost a **** load of money, a top end talent and to any outside observer goes straight to the starting line up at a club like Monaco over much lesser players but evidently that's not how it works. He has had to train, adapt and perform to get games. A smaller example would be Goretzka. Top end talent though he cost nothing has had to establish himself at Schalke before becoming a nailed on starter.

The price of the talent is not that relevant in terms of squad position, specially nowadays where the market dictates for a ridiculous number. Havertz for example no matter how costly or what his potential will have to develop and be good enough to start at Arsenal even if he costs 50m. That's the natural process and how it works.

Arsenal are sort of like Monaco in the context of the PL but much bigger and big enough for talents to establish themselves into a starting spot regardless of their reputation, potential and cost. We can most definitely be attractive for top end talent and good platform to establish themselves but have to earn that place first.

Its a different matter for say a talent of Mbappe's level.