Will this team reach it's potential in a 4-4-2?

[Big Poppa]

Irrespective of current form and results, do you feel that we are in a position whereby we have too many play-makers to fit effectively within Arsène's much tried and tested 4-4-2 system? I don't think it's fair to say that Arsène is tactically inept, but I think that you would have to acknowledge that his in-game tactics are much less of a forte than his ability to assemble a group of fantastically talented football players with phenomenal potential.

Le Boss has always been much more of a philosophical character than a pragmatist, and if you follow the pattern of his behaviour in areas such as the transfer market you'll find that there are more than obvious signs of a man who remains rigidly faithful to principles that have served him well in the past, in spite of what other conditions may now be different.

This has worked to a degree, but a major condition is now different: we are an extremely young side, and are not as agressive or imposing as the 2004 unbeaten side. I don't know whether I'm the only one who feels this way, but with each game that passes in the Premiership I feel less convinced that we will ever see the very best of Cesc Fabregas in a 2-man midfield partnership. The box-to-box workload required is simply not commensurate with Cesc's strengths and weaknesses. If this is the player that the 'new Arsenal' will be built around - then surely we must do what it takes to accomodate the most poignant of his qualities. That is his brilliance in the final third.

The team has undergone something of a physical transition. We have sacrificed a lot of strength and height (Campbell - 6ft1, Vieira -6ft3, Edu-6ft1, Pires-6ft, Bergkamp-6ft) for more youth and pace (Hleb, Rosicky, Fabregas, Walcott, Reyes) within the last two years, and yet our tactical system has remained the same. I've always felt that with a 4-4-2 week in week out in the Premiership, youthfulness and speed can only be successful if matched with strength, height and physical aggression. I don't want to dig up something that has been raised a million times but these are currently not our strong points and that has been evident for almost 2 seasons, so just as much as our team needs to shoot outside the box, is it time for Wenger to think outside it too?


For example, can we play successfully with a front three? Forgive me for using a few hypothetical names that we've been linked to here, this is for the purposes of showing how it might look - if Reo-Coker and Gallas were added to the squad, reflecting our added strength in depth;

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Lehmann/Almunia:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Eboue/Lauren:::::::Toure/Djourou::::::::::::::::Gallas?/Senderos::::::::::Cole?/Clichy


:::::::::::::Hleb/Fabregas::::::::::::Gilberto/Diaby:::::::::Reo-Coker/Rosicky:::::::::::::


::::Ljungberg/v.Persie::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Walcott/Reyes?:::::::

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Henry/Adebayor::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

This provides us with extra midfield strength and presence in the middle and gives a greater license for Cesc to break forward and make runs into the box. We'll also have the additional width in the final third to stretch defences.

I must stress that this is only a possible alternative rather than an entire new system of play. The real question is whether you really do think that our current group of players can fulfil their potential (in the long run) based on the same 4-4-2 system that we've employed in the past?

 

[King_Kolo]

I think we should play like that in away games and some home games. But i think you are right.

Midfield and forwards:

--------------------------Gilberto/Diaby-----------------------

----------Cesc/Rosicky----------------Reo-Coker/Ljungberg----

RVP/Hleb----------------------------------------Walcott/Reyes
-------------------------Henry/Adebayor----------------------

 

[kel varnsen]

Irrespective of current form and results, do you feel that we are in a position whereby we have too many play-makers to fit effectively within Arsène's much tried and tested 4-4-2 system?

no, i actually think we have too few. i'd like to see henry paired up with a more creative forward a la reyes, in addition to rosicky, hleb and cesc.

The box-to-box workload required is simply not commensurate with Cesc's strengths and weaknesses.

i'm not sure exactly what you're getting at here, but i can only assume you're talking about cesc' stamina and work rate and you couldn't be further from the truth. cesc is probably in the top three at arsenal when it comes to how many yards they actually cover during a match.

as for the 4-5-1 suggestion, i am, as always, very much against it. the system and tactics for the cowardly and those who think defending is more important than attacking. besides, henry alone up front is a complete waste of talent and skill.

if, however, you're talking about a true 4-3-3, with three actual forwards playing up front, then i'm more on board, but i'd still prefer 4-4-2. in a 4-3-3, the full backs are primarily defenders. they often stay back and don't link up with the right and left forward, like they do in a 4-4-2 with the right and left winger. considering we have eboue and cole here, it would be another huge waste of talent if we were to put limits on their offensive movement.

 

[thierryunreal]

i just like to think we should have options like 4-5-1 in CHL last season. we ought have maybe 4-3-3 where either winger becomes the 2nd striker while we are defending. or 3-5-2 in the 85th minute. just knowing that they can't predict our formation everytime and adapting to more shooting or more wingplay as the case may be.

 

[Jasper]

I don't really think its that important to have a 4-4-2, 4-5-1, or 4-3-3.

Our team moves around so much, swaps and overlaps positions so often that the standard formation is nonexistent except for the start of each half.

What is really important is to have the best 10 outfield players for the given situation.

What really ticks me off is that although we have so many players passing the ball we have no none that is strong enough to muscle the ball into the back of the net.
I liked how Drogba scored against Blackburn yesterday. He was so powerful even with the Dutch defender all over him. He dribbled the ball for 10 meters without losing position and finished it off. In fact he put a few moves on Senderos before last season.

It is starting to become ridiculous how we pass the ball 10 times infront of goal only for the 11th pass to lose posession.

 

[Feanor]

Good topic, I still think it's too early to ditch the 442 because I believe everybody is hung up on what we did at the beginning of last year. I think everyone has their doom vision and no matter what is happening on the field they make the same arguments: Bert sucks, we're being kicked off the ball, we can't control the game against physical teams...bla bla...did anyone watch the Citeh game? We dominated that game and couldn't finish, the problem is that we have a lot of talent up front but they're just not clicking right now. Bert had a great game, Cesc has a great game, it just seems a tiny bit off in the last third which means our attacking players have gelled. The bottom line is that we don't really play a traditional 442 anyways and we are not now. Back in the old days (read PV era), we basically played a 2-man midfield, 2 wingers and 1 ST and 1 F/AM where as now, we're playing...something amorphous, which is just due to the change in players just as Rosicky and Hleb. Hleb wasn't a fulltime starter in the EPL last year and Rosicky wasn't here, that's 50% of your midfield changing in one year, it will take some time for us to click again on all cylinders and the goals to start going in. I was always a little bemused by Wenger subs but he killed me in the CL final, taking Cesc off was a terrible move and I hope he's learned his lesson (remember the Cygan at LM against Manure?). Wenger is changing the way this team plays in the EPL vs. CL but he believes that a superior team should be able to impose its style no matter what the opposition like we used too, I think we can get there again.

 

[Captain]

4-4-2 is fine but I'd like to see Rosicky and Hleb playing further forward and cesc playing marginally deeper if possible.

 

[Feanor]

Oh I forgot one of points big poppa made that I absolutely agree with, we have become a team of runts, we need size which is why I don't like Hoyte, Flamini or Luopoli, nothing against their skill or determination, they're just too damn small!

 

[dos1986]

Cesc needs an incredibly athletic partner like Sissoko/M Diarra type player next to him to make the 4-4-2 work for us like it did in the past he also needs pacy wingers and runners upfront who he can release when he recieves the ball for the 4-4-2 to be optimum for him.

 

[J.C Ramon7]

I like a formation with two DM because it gives more stability look at Brazil
Gilberto Ze Roberto
Kaka Ronaldino Robinho
Adriano
Brazil U-17
Denilson, Roberto
Anderson Renato Ramon
****
Maka, Essien
Lampard Robben Cole
Drogba(last year)
so we can play
Gilberto, New Signing/Diaby
Rosicky Cesc Hleb
Henry

 

[J.C Ramon7]

Cesc needs an incredibly athletic partner like Sissoko/M Diarra type player next to him to make the 4-4-2 work for us like it did in the past he also needs pacy wingers and runners upfront who he can release when he recieves the ball for the 4-4-2 to be optimum for him.

You mean like this
Wright Phillips, Cesc, Diarra, Ribery
Rosicky
Henry
That would be a great team but it is still a dream

 

[dos1986]

Cesc needs an incredibly athletic partner like Sissoko/M Diarra type player next to him to make the 4-4-2 work for us like it did in the past he also needs pacy wingers and runners upfront who he can release when he recieves the ball for the 4-4-2 to be optimum for him.

You mean like this
Wright Phillips, Cesc, Diarra, Ribery
Rosicky
Henry
That would be a great team but it is still a dream

Exactly

 

[J.C Ramon7]

That team would easily win the C.L anyway in this 4-5-1 system If we played these we in midfield
Cesc Gilberto Diaby that wont be too bad
Gilberto as Defensive Mid
Diaby as Box to Box Mid
Cesc as Attacking Mid
If we Get Reo Coker/Mascherano, Diaby goes in the bench
Mascherano can shield the defence with Gilberto, but if Reo Coker comes in he does Diaby's job.

 

[R.O.T]

I dont think we would have ever played the 4-5-1 in the CL had we not lost and played soo badly against pool shortly before. It was fear of what madrid would do to us if we played any thing like how we played against pool. Had adebayor not been cup-tied i think he would have probably partnered henry up-front.

The 4-5-1 hardly made us play anything but perfect football in the CL run and when henry wasnt aroun last season we still played very good passing football.

4-5-1/4-3-3 really helped us last season so i say we continue.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Lehmann::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Lauren::::::::::::Toure::::::::::::::::Gallas::::::::::::::::::Cole

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Gilberto:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Rosicky:::::::::::::::::::::::Fabregas:::::::::::::::::::::::::Hleb

:::::::::::::::::::v.Persie::::::::::::::::::Henry::::::::::::::::::::

 

[J.C Ramon7]

I dont think we would have ever played the 4-5-1 in the CL had we not lost and played soo badly against pool shortly before. It was fear of what madrid would do to us if we played any thing like how we played against pool. Had adebayor not been cup-tied i think he would have probably partnered henry up-front.

The 4-5-1 hardly made us play anything but perfect football in the CL run and when henry wasnt aroun last season we still played very good passing football.

4-5-1/4-3-3 really helped us last season so i say we continue.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Lehmann::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Lauren::::::::::::Toure::::::::::::::::Gallas::::::::::::::::::Cole

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Gilberto:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Rosicky:::::::::::::::::::::::Fabregas:::::::::::::::::::::::::Hleb

:::::::::::::::::::v.Persie::::::::::::::::::Henry::::::::::::::::::::

What about Eboue?

 

[R.O.T]

Although Eboue is a good attacker, his awareness is really bad. The CL final for example or in numerous times in the world cup or that PL game at OT last season when he should have seen park running behind him.

 

[ricky1985]

I think ultimately we will play 4-4-2, Fabregas now has the discipline that Vieira had if not the physical prescence, but his incredible anticipation makes up for this. He will become one of the most complete midefielders of his generation by the time his finished. I think the problem at the moment is not that we are playing 4-4-2 but integrating fully our 'wide' men into our team because we are not getting from them (and wasnt last season either) what we did from Pires and Ljungberg in our pomp.

 

[stuart]

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Lehmann::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Eboue::::::::::::Toure::::::::::::::::Gallas:::::::::::::::someone new?


rvp:::::::hleb/rosicky:::::::gilberto::::::::fabregas::::::::::walcott


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::henry:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

at the moment this is the team i would play but i would like a 'hard man' in midfield,so that we can rotate against certain sides

eg; against bolton play gilberto and ??????? in the centre instead of hleb or rosicky or fabregas,we shouldnt be playing hleb and rosicky on the wings,the are playmakers!!

 

[bobo69]

there is nothing wrong with 442. its more the application of it that bothers me.

our greatest position is one of defense and then counter attack. for this to work you need a very solid defense that can absorb sustained pressure and a team that defends well as a team. we should have bought a world class CB (something i have been screaming for ages but thats another story) a leader to allow this to work. sucking in the opposition and then releasing creativity and pace to score on the counter. classic current arsenal.

our game has changed to a sort of all out attack extravaganza of sustained pressure on the opposition and forcing a goal. the opposition closes up shop and goes for the draw then hits us on the counter. You see high possession-shots by AFC and low possession-shots by the opposition yet they win or draw. its a zero sum game long term. midfield intellegence comes from going forwards but also backwards to make space to go forwards effectivly and get the end product.

in addition to this we dont have a plan b. the 'faffing' round the box is our way as opposed to taking the shot but to be honest the law of probability and in fact history suggests we wont be successful throughout a season with this approach. for sure we will get a goal of the season but scrapping it out and grinding out a result is what matters as we all know already.

thats about the extent of it really.

dont write off our chances just yet but AWs reluctance to 'pay up' and buy an established CB (again) my cost us dear, irrespective of whichever system we use.

just my 2p.

 

[Goalkeeper]

--------------------------Gilberto/Diaby-----------------------

----------Cesc/Rosicky----------------Reo-Coker/Ljungberg----

RVP/Hleb----------------------------------------Walcott/Reyes
-------------------------Henry/Adebayor----------------------

Diaby cannot play Gilberto's role. He is not a defensive midfielder and in a 3-man midfield, there should be some sort of balance in defending and attacking roles.