PL: Portsmouth vs Arsenal | 13/05/07

[Zico]

Barton belongs in a cage Emir8- not in a football team, and certainly not with us.

Wouldn't you like to see Barton disciplining underachievers like Hleb and Senderos? I like the man's fire on game day. It's what he does between games that's a worry. Maybe he could be put in a cage between matches...

 

[Clrnc]

btw, does anybody remember any player who missed 4-5 penalties for us a season. i mean have not scored in all the penalties they have taken.

has baptista been the only player to get that honour?

 

[Biggus]

Barton belongs in a cage Emir8- not in a football team, and certainly not with us.

Wouldn't you like to see Barton disciplining underachievers like Hleb and Senderos? I like the man's fire on game day. It's what he does between games that's a worry. Maybe he could be put in a cage between matches...

Hmmm you may have a point.....

Wenger: Chjoey! put zown zat cigar and try to get ze ball from Alex!

Yes. I'd like that very much.

 

[Biggus]

Alfonso, i'd sacrifice the penalty and therefore 3rd place if it finally pushes wenger over the edge to not sign baptista. It'd be worth coming 4th for

If Wenger signs Baptista then we would really have to question the sanity of our manager.

im doing that now whilst your tossing off over that naked pen like darren and barry in extras !!!

I'll be in on that too!

which part, tossing off!! because i was only in questioning the sanity of wenger part

...Maybe thats why Arsène's eyesight is so notoriously bad.

 

[Thommybhoy]

Was Pompey goal clear offside for anybody else? Here in CRO they are saying, mainly beacuse local f*t bas***d scored that goal, stuff like: "small team got robbed", "refs always help teams like Arsenal" and outher bulls***. How they made me mad!!

 

[Viper]

theres many english players with the mental strength to ply for arsenal

What about with the skill to play for Arsenal? And which ones of the little bunch with both skill and mentality can we afford?

Vieira was not English. Young players such as Diaby could have learned from him. Nationality has nothing to do with it.

diaby could have laernt from vieira, but was vieira here to teach him that mentality...who did vieira gain his from...tony adams...there are english players here that have the skill to play for arsenal....woodgate,barton and many more that can help the foreigners but where are they....dont blame me, its all down to Arsène...hes the one that hasnt won anything for us for 2 years with 'his' team he has made and not inherited
would drogba have done well his season if terry or frank wasnt at chelsea and they told him about how to earn respect in england(score goals)
some of our players need that english mentality to win the league and sadly we do not have it
gallas and cesc, rvp and jens and henry learnt it.....just listen to their interviews
hey i hope next season im proven wrong but well see

What the **** are you babbling about?

English mentality? Like what, the English team that won the World Cup? Oh wait..

I'm getting quite sick at this lack of 'English mentality' bullshit. There is no such thing as English mentality. It's quite cringeworthy to hear.

You said you want Woodgate. Well, he is incredibly prone to injuries.
You say you want Barton. He is a **** and isn't better than Fabregas.

Who's next on your wish list, Alan Smith?!

 

[Nutsy]

theres many english players with the mental strength to ply for arsenal

What about with the skill to play for Arsenal? And which ones of the little bunch with both skill and mentality can we afford?

Vieira was not English. Young players such as Diaby could have learned from him. Nationality has nothing to do with it.

diaby could have laernt from vieira, but was vieira here to teach him that mentality...who did vieira gain his from...tony adams...there are english players here that have the skill to play for arsenal....woodgate,barton and many more that can help the foreigners but where are they....dont blame me, its all down to Arsène...hes the one that hasnt won anything for us for 2 years with 'his' team he has made and not inherited
would drogba have done well his season if terry or frank wasnt at chelsea and they told him about how to earn respect in england(score goals)
some of our players need that english mentality to win the league and sadly we do not have it
gallas and cesc, rvp and jens and henry learnt it.....just listen to their interviews
hey i hope next season im proven wrong but well see

What the f**k are you babbling about?

English mentality? Like what, the English team that won the World Cup? Oh wait..

I'm getting quite sick at this lack of 'English mentality' bullshit. There is no such thing as English mentality. It's quite cringeworthy to hear.

You said you want Woodgate. Well, he is incredibly prone to injuries.
You say you want Barton. He is a c**t and isn't better than Fabregas.

Who's next on your wish list, Alan Smith?!

For once I agree with you there Viper. Emr8, you have to understand, We used to have Keown, Adams, Wright, etc to name a few , these guys are fecking legends. You don't have that now anymore. There is a massive difference of the English players back then compared to the English players you have now.

The influence of the English players to Chavs and Mancs contribute to their success?? Ha. you have got to be kidding me. Chavs have Drogba, and Mancs have C.Ronaldo, and we could've been up there with a 100% on Form Henry.Barton come on? he's better than Fabregas? Bloody hell!! That's feckking ridiculous! He's a cnut to begin with, a thuggish psycho path. why in the name of hell would you want him at Arsenal.

English players are overrated. If they were any good, they should've secure a placein the Euro 2008, no.. wait.. They've only won the WC once in their history, and that was what in the 60s? It's hard to find English players to fit the description of World Class. Otherwise, Wenger would've dump the Foreign 'imports'.

 

[USArsenal]

theres many english players with the mental strength to ply for arsenal

What about with the skill to play for Arsenal? And which ones of the little bunch with both skill and mentality can we afford?

Vieira was not English. Young players such as Diaby could have learned from him. Nationality has nothing to do with it.

diaby could have laernt from vieira, but was vieira here to teach him that mentality...who did vieira gain his from...tony adams...there are english players here that have the skill to play for arsenal....woodgate,barton and many more that can help the foreigners but where are they....dont blame me, its all down to Arsène...hes the one that hasnt won anything for us for 2 years with 'his' team he has made and not inherited
would drogba have done well his season if terry or frank wasnt at chelsea and they told him about how to earn respect in england(score goals)
some of our players need that english mentality to win the league and sadly we do not have it
gallas and cesc, rvp and jens and henry learnt it.....just listen to their interviews
hey i hope next season im proven wrong but well see

What the f**k are you babbling about?

English mentality? Like what, the English team that won the World Cup? Oh wait..

I'm getting quite sick at this lack of 'English mentality' bullshit. There is no such thing as English mentality. It's quite cringeworthy to hear.

You said you want Woodgate. Well, he is incredibly prone to injuries.
You say you want Barton. He is a c**t and isn't better than Fabregas.

Who's next on your wish list, Alan Smith?!

or Lee Bowyer

 

[Alfonso]

For once I agree with you there Viper. Emr8, you have to understand, We used to have Keown, Adams, Wright, etc to name a few , these guys are fecking legends. You don't have that now anymore. There is a massive difference of the English players back then compared to the English players you have now.

The influence of the English players to Chavs and Mancs contribute to their success?? Ha. you have got to be kidding me. Chavs have Drogba, and Mancs have C.Ronaldo, and we could've been up there with a 100% on Form Henry.Barton come on? he's better than Fabregas? Bloody hell!! That's feckking ridiculous! He's a cnut to begin with, a thuggish psycho path. why in the name of hell would you want him at Arsenal.

English players are overrated. If they were any good, they should've secure a placein the Euro 2008, no.. wait.. They've only won the WC once in their history, and that was what in the 60s? It's hard to find English players to fit the description of World Class. Otherwise, Wenger would've dump the Foreign 'imports'.

Lampard, Terry, J.Cole, Ferdinand, G.Neville, Scholes, and Rooney have all been fundamental to both Chelsea's and Man Utd'd league successes in the past 3 seasons. Dont underestimate the impact of having Cole, Campbell, Keown and Parlour when we won the title in 2004 either.

Im not saying its one way or the other, but i dont think one can just dismiss not having any English players. You need a good balance. You need the leadership, grit, determination, experience, knowledge of the EPL, of the English players combined with the flair, and technical abilities of the overseas players.

No team has won the Premiership without at least 2/3 English players in their first 11 line up. And this is not a coincidence.

Apart from actual ability, the point of having certain English players is also a lot to do with the culture within the club, and its values. For example, G.Neville is a local lad, and bleeds Man Utd. He understands the culture, aims, objectives of Man Utd. He can be seen as a figure of reference at Utd. John Terry is the same at Chelsea. You have ask yourself what represents Arsenal's values historically. Ive always know us to be a 'never say die' team. But this value seems to have diluted in recent years. What is the reason? Lack of English players?

Foregin players need a good kick up the backside at times when they are not peforming, and sometimes with too many foreign players are one club its a case of one too many sheep.

Certain foregin players have 'English qualities' of course, e.g. Vieria. But this has derived from learning from his English teammates such as Adams and Keown. They taught him the culture of Arsenal etc. I beleive that it will take a couple of years at a club for a foreginer to fully get to grips with the values and culture of the club, e.g. Toure, Henry.

At the moment, one of the reasons Arsenal have underacheived is due to a lack of real leaders, and being arguably the weakest Arsenal team in years in terms of strength. English players traditionally are good mentally, esp in terms of work ethic, grit and determination, as well as leadership.

Would Steve Sidwell, David Bentley and Matthew Upson give more effort('die for the cause') than a Gilberto, Hleb and Senderoes? Would they react better to adversity and tough obstacles throughout the season? What are the fundamental differences between the first three and the other three? Is it specific to national characteristics?

 

[Don Pacifico]

For once I agree with you there Viper. Emr8, you have to understand, We used to have Keown, Adams, Wright, etc to name a few , these guys are fecking legends. You don't have that now anymore. There is a massive difference of the English players back then compared to the English players you have now.

The influence of the English players to Chavs and Mancs contribute to their success?? Ha. you have got to be kidding me. Chavs have Drogba, and Mancs have C.Ronaldo, and we could've been up there with a 100% on Form Henry.Barton come on? he's better than Fabregas? Bloody hell!! That's feckking ridiculous! He's a cnut to begin with, a thuggish psycho path. why in the name of hell would you want him at Arsenal.

English players are overrated. If they were any good, they should've secure a placein the Euro 2008, no.. wait.. They've only won the WC once in their history, and that was what in the 60s? It's hard to find English players to fit the description of World Class. Otherwise, Wenger would've dump the Foreign 'imports'.

Lampard, Terry, J.Cole, Ferdinand, G.Neville, Scholes, and Rooney have all been fundamental to both Chelsea's and Man Utd'd league successes in the past 3 seasons. Dont underestimate the impact of having Cole, Campbell, Keown and Parlour when we won the title in 2004 either.

Im not saying its one way or the other, but i dont think one can just dismiss not having any English players. You need a good balance. You need the leadership, grit, determination, experience, knowledge of the EPL, of the English players combined with the flair, and technical abilities of the overseas players.

No team has won the Premiership without at least 2/3 English players in their first 11 line up. And this is not a coincidence.

Apart from actual ability, the point of having certain English players is also a lot to do with the culture within the club, and its values. For example, G.Neville is a local lad, and bleeds Man Utd. He understands the culture, aims, objectives of Man Utd. He can be seen as a figure of reference at Utd. John Terry is the same at Chelsea. You have ask yourself what represents Arsenal's values historically. Ive always know us to be a 'never say die' team. But this value seems to have diluted in recent years. What is the reason? Lack of English players?

Foregin players need a good kick up the backside at times when they are not peforming, and sometimes with too many foreign players are one club its a case of one too many sheep.

Certain foregin players have 'English qualities' of course, e.g. Vieira. But this has derived from learning from his English teammates such as Adams and Keown. They taught him the culture of Arsenal etc. I beleive that it will take a couple of years at a club for a foreginer to fully get to grips with the values and culture of the club, e.g. Toure, Henry.

At the moment, one of the reasons Arsenal have underacheived is due to a lack of real leaders, and being arguably the weakest Arsenal team in years in terms of strength. English players traditionally are good mentally, esp in terms of work ethic, grit and determination, as well as leadership.

Would Steve Sidwell, David Bentley and Matthew Upson give more effort('die for the cause') than a Gilberto, Hleb and Senderoes? Would they react better to adversity and tough obstacles throughout the season? What are the fundamental differences between the first three and the other three? Is it specific to national characteristics?

Some good points Alfonso. But at the same time, I don't like the lack of loyalty that all three English players you mentioned showed. Sidwell left Reading who are eight in the league and have really raised his profile as a player. Reading have a strong and secure setup, they are only on the up. Coppell is a wise manager and Reading have a squad with a lot of potential and with more money to invest in the next season.

Bentley criticised our youth setup rather harshly once he left the club. That pissed the hell out of me. We may not have given him enough chances for his liking, but without a shadow of a doubt, our club made him the player he is today, someone who is on the fringe of his national team, a player with flair much unlike most British players. If he had been at almost any other British youth academy, this flair would have been kicked out of him like a cancer. We made him into the player he is today.

I don't think it was great that Upson left Birmingham in the manner that he did, but I can't accuse him of committing a heinous crime. Still it showed hardly any loyalty to a club that gave him a chance.

But obviously where you have your Bentleys, you also have your Adams players who will stick with you through thick and thin.

What I'm trying to say here, is that as much as we would like to think that English player have certain qualities, each one is inherently different. The right English player could really make a difference, but who out there could really improve our team? There aren't many that would fit into Arsène's plans, but then maybe as I have been discussing in another thread, this is more a flaw in Arsène than anything else.

 

[Viper]

For once I agree with you there Viper. Emr8, you have to understand, We used to have Keown, Adams, Wright, etc to name a few , these guys are fecking legends. You don't have that now anymore. There is a massive difference of the English players back then compared to the English players you have now.

The influence of the English players to Chavs and Mancs contribute to their success?? Ha. you have got to be kidding me. Chavs have Drogba, and Mancs have C.Ronaldo, and we could've been up there with a 100% on Form Henry.Barton come on? he's better than Fabregas? Bloody hell!! That's feckking ridiculous! He's a cnut to begin with, a thuggish psycho path. why in the name of hell would you want him at Arsenal.

English players are overrated. If they were any good, they should've secure a placein the Euro 2008, no.. wait.. They've only won the WC once in their history, and that was what in the 60s? It's hard to find English players to fit the description of World Class. Otherwise, Wenger would've dump the Foreign 'imports'.

Lampard, Terry, J.Cole, Ferdinand, G.Neville, Scholes, and Rooney have all been fundamental to both Chelsea's and Man Utd'd league successes in the past 3 seasons. Dont underestimate the impact of having Cole, Campbell, Keown and Parlour when we won the title in 2004 either.

Im not saying its one way or the other, but i dont think one can just dismiss not having any English players. You need a good balance. You need the leadership, grit, determination, experience, knowledge of the EPL, of the English players combined with the flair, and technical abilities of the overseas players.

No team has won the Premiership without at least 2/3 English players in their first 11 line up. And this is not a coincidence.

Apart from actual ability, the point of having certain English players is also a lot to do with the culture within the club, and its values. For example, G.Neville is a local lad, and bleeds Man Utd. He understands the culture, aims, objectives of Man Utd. He can be seen as a figure of reference at Utd. John Terry is the same at Chelsea. You have ask yourself what represents Arsenal's values historically. Ive always know us to be a 'never say die' team. But this value seems to have diluted in recent years. What is the reason? Lack of English players?

Foregin players need a good kick up the backside at times when they are not peforming, and sometimes with too many foreign players are one club its a case of one too many sheep.

Certain foregin players have 'English qualities' of course, e.g. Vieira. But this has derived from learning from his English teammates such as Adams and Keown. They taught him the culture of Arsenal etc. I beleive that it will take a couple of years at a club for a foreginer to fully get to grips with the values and culture of the club, e.g. Toure, Henry.

At the moment, one of the reasons Arsenal have underacheived is due to a lack of real leaders, and being arguably the weakest Arsenal team in years in terms of strength. English players traditionally are good mentally, esp in terms of work ethic, grit and determination, as well as leadership.

Would Steve Sidwell, David Bentley and Matthew Upson give more effort('die for the cause') than a Gilberto, Hleb and Senderoes? Would they react better to adversity and tough obstacles throughout the season? What are the fundamental differences between the first three and the other three? Is it specific to national characteristics?

An English player or two could be nice, but how many top English players are out there? It's not our fault Campbell wanted to leave. It's not our fault Ashley Cole is a slimy money grabbing **** etc.

Let's look at the pricing of the English players too. Man United's team:
Carrick £18m
Ferdinand £30m
Rooney £30m

Wowoah! That is £78 million. SEVENTY EIGHT MILLION.

I fail to see any player which would improve our starting eleven within our reach. Perhaps we could get Richards. He is a Gooner, and that always help. I'd actually love Richards at the club because I think he could be a fantastic replacement for Gilberto. Although he isn't a defensive midfielder, I think he could make the transition seeing as he is capable of playing a CB too.

However, we have a good number of Arsenal plays who have the right mentality and frameset:
Toure, Clichy, Fabregas, Van Persie, Henry. You could say Gallas, but his performances on the pitch have not justified this. I also think a player like Adebayor seems to give his all. Also look at Rosicky. He hardly looks like a bottler!

English players traditionally are good mentally, esp in terms of work ethic, grit and determination, as well as leadership.

Would you say Gilberto offers leadership? Would you say Rosicky offers worth ethic and grit (seeing as he isn't afraid to get stuck in)? Isn't Rosicky the captain of Czech Republic too?

 

[j'nuh]

For once I agree with you there Viper. Emr8, you have to understand, We used to have Keown, Adams, Wright, etc to name a few , these guys are fecking legends. You don't have that now anymore. There is a massive difference of the English players back then compared to the English players you have now.

The influence of the English players to Chavs and Mancs contribute to their success?? Ha. you have got to be kidding me. Chavs have Drogba, and Mancs have C.Ronaldo, and we could've been up there with a 100% on Form Henry.Barton come on? he's better than Fabregas? Bloody hell!! That's feckking ridiculous! He's a cnut to begin with, a thuggish psycho path. why in the name of hell would you want him at Arsenal.

English players are overrated. If they were any good, they should've secure a placein the Euro 2008, no.. wait.. They've only won the WC once in their history, and that was what in the 60s? It's hard to find English players to fit the description of World Class. Otherwise, Wenger would've dump the Foreign 'imports'.

Lampard, Terry, J.Cole, Ferdinand, G.Neville, Scholes, and Rooney have all been fundamental to both Chelsea's and Man Utd'd league successes in the past 3 seasons. Dont underestimate the impact of having Cole, Campbell, Keown and Parlour when we won the title in 2004 either.

Im not saying its one way or the other, but i dont think one can just dismiss not having any English players. You need a good balance. You need the leadership, grit, determination, experience, knowledge of the EPL, of the English players combined with the flair, and technical abilities of the overseas players.

No team has won the Premiership without at least 2/3 English players in their first 11 line up. And this is not a coincidence.

Apart from actual ability, the point of having certain English players is also a lot to do with the culture within the club, and its values. For example, G.Neville is a local lad, and bleeds Man Utd. He understands the culture, aims, objectives of Man Utd. He can be seen as a figure of reference at Utd. John Terry is the same at Chelsea. You have ask yourself what represents Arsenal's values historically. Ive always know us to be a 'never say die' team. But this value seems to have diluted in recent years. What is the reason? Lack of English players?

Foregin players need a good kick up the backside at times when they are not peforming, and sometimes with too many foreign players are one club its a case of one too many sheep.

Certain foregin players have 'English qualities' of course, e.g. Vieira. But this has derived from learning from his English teammates such as Adams and Keown. They taught him the culture of Arsenal etc. I beleive that it will take a couple of years at a club for a foreginer to fully get to grips with the values and culture of the club, e.g. Toure, Henry.

At the moment, one of the reasons Arsenal have underacheived is due to a lack of real leaders, and being arguably the weakest Arsenal team in years in terms of strength. English players traditionally are good mentally, esp in terms of work ethic, grit and determination, as well as leadership.

Would Steve Sidwell, David Bentley and Matthew Upson give more effort('die for the cause') than a Gilberto, Hleb and Senderoes? Would they react better to adversity and tough obstacles throughout the season? What are the fundamental differences between the first three and the other three? Is it specific to national characteristics?

Have Hoyte and and Walcott shown more grit and determination this season than Adebayor and Toure?

Youre right about Gary Neville, he bleeds united. But then has he been more commited than Vidic this season? Same goes for Terry and Essien.

The idea that English players are naturally more gritty and determined than foreigners is an absolute myth for me.

 

[RC8]

theres many english players with the mental strength to ply for arsenal

What about with the skill to play for Arsenal? And which ones of the little bunch with both skill and mentality can we afford?

Vieira was not English. Young players such as Diaby could have learned from him. Nationality has nothing to do with it.

diaby could have laernt from vieira, but was vieira here to teach him that mentality...who did vieira gain his from...tony adams...there are english players here that have the skill to play for arsenal....woodgate,barton and many more that can help the foreigners but where are they....dont blame me, its all down to Arsène...hes the one that hasnt won anything for us for 2 years with 'his' team he has made and not inherited
would drogba have done well his season if terry or frank wasnt at chelsea and they told him about how to earn respect in england(score goals)
some of our players need that english mentality to win the league and sadly we do not have it
gallas and cesc, rvp and jens and henry learnt it.....just listen to their interviews
hey i hope next season im proven wrong but well see

Once again you are completely wrong.

Diaby could have learned from Vieira, Arsène brought Vieira, Vieira is not English... How can you confirm that, which is what I just said, and then go on about how we need English players? Very inconsistent.

Wenger did not inherit our 03-04 squad. He DID NOT. period. Yes, they learned from older experienced players, but they learned by themselves as well, and right here, right now, we have Gallas, Touré, Gilberto, Henry, Jens, RvP, and Fabregas, who all have the right mentality and are perfectly capable of passing it on. Rosicky has shown a never say die attitude, as has Clichy. Let me ask you, do you really think you have a point somewhere in your post?

Do I think Drogba would have done as well as he has without Terry and Lampard? He could have done just as well with Vieira and Touré, and guess what :whispers: they are not English...

Talk all you want about the English mentality. There are 2 things that are very common on forums. Excuses, and explanations. Explanations are the ones that require a certain level of analysis, and try to explain a determined phenomenon through evidence in order to find the appropriate solution to why things have not been going or have been going as expected. Excuses tend to be irrational, and serve to ignore a difficult reality, or to avoid getting into the complexity a certain matter could have. Then, there are those who see both as the same thing, and only want to improve, ignoring that some factors might not allows us to do so at the rate that this person demands. Others, like myself and the majority of the posters in this forum, try to look for explanations, propose solutions, and ultimately, hope for the best and support the team. But then, there are those who look for a simple excuse and try to impose it as the only and sole reason for the outcome that the team is facing. Some choose to blame certain players, and some others, the mentality of the team.

To blame our failure on such a weak excuse is frankly, as I have said before, ridiculous. It holds no truth. You can argue that we lack leadership, and we do to some extent, but to attribute our lack of leadership to the lack of English players is clutching at the straws. To further blame Wenger for the situation is plain stupid, as there are no players at a decent price that fit the bill, and the fact you suggested Barton (as brutal thug) and Woodgate (a very injury prone defender who we have had basically no chance to sign, and who offers nothing more than Gallas and/or Touré) highlights how nonsensical the whole argument is.

Lets summarise things a little:

1. Nationality has nothing to do with our problems.

2. Even if we lack mentality, that is only one of the things that we currently lack, and it is once again not related to the "English mentality" for which you have given no real evidence apart from our failure (which is a very poor piece of evidence).

3. Wenger did not inherit the winning team of 04, and he is not responsible for the lack of mentality in the current squad. Players learn by themselves, not necessarily from other, older players.

4. This mentality that we "lack" is pretty evident in many of our players, some of them who where not here under the presence of our old leaders.

5. Ade and Baptista not putting their chances away has nothing to do with an "English mentality". They've tried hard enough, Ade is young, he might improve, Baptista is old, he might not. It's as simple as that.

6. You contradict yourself too much. You say we lack the English mentality, then you say that Vieira had it and that Diaby could have learned from him, then you say that Gallas, RvP, Henry, and Fabregas have it too, but somehow our other players can't learn from them. In any case, you are wrong, since you have stated completely contrary things, and your argument has been wildly inconsistent throughout.

P.S. No personal offence intended, I like you as a poster, but I deeply disagree with your argument

 

[RC8]

G.Neville is a local lad, and bleeds Man Utd. He understands the culture, aims, objectives of Man Utd. He can be seen as a figure of reference at Utd. John Terry is the same at Chelsea. You have ask yourself what represents Arsenal's values historically. Ive always know us to be a 'never say die' team. But this value seems to have diluted in recent years. What is the reason? Lack of English players?

Not necessarily. First of all... Touré is in my book the player that represents that 'never say die' attitude you mention.

Now, what about looking at another factor that you seem to be looking over; Experience.

What do John Terry, Gary Neville, Paul Scholes, Ferdinand, Lampard, and our own Kolo Touré have that others in our squad lack? Experience.

Kolo has always been a gritty player, but he was unable to transmit his passion to team mates until last season because he lacked experience. Same with Sol Campbell, who was a fairly experienced defender and was able to boss the defence because of it. Our current squad is very young, so players who have the necessary qualities to bring the correct attitude to the side such as Clichy, often are unable to do so because they are young and they have to concentrate on themselves first and foremost, and thus can't go around bossing other people.

As this squad matures, the players with the most character will continue developing and will eventually spread their attitude among the team. And, unless they leave, that will happen inevitably. The question is, could bringing an experienced player now act as a catalyst for this process to occur? That is the question that Wenger is probably asking himself as we speak (write).

As you say, there are foreign players with "british qualities". These qualities though, are not british, they are just experience, and in this case, experience in the English game, which comes from just playing in the Premiership for long enough. The English players that have this experience and could impart it in the current squad are simply too expensive, and therefore the wisest move would be to either bring a player from abroad who has natural leader qualities and plays at a fast pace and therefore could adapt to the game, or, simply bring a winger or another midfielder to improve the quality of the team, and wait for the current crop to mature until they are able to boss themselves. Let's see what happens.

 

[Nutsy]

Lampard, Terry, J.Cole, Ferdinand, G.Neville, Scholes, and Rooney have all been fundamental to both Chelsea's and Man Utd'd league successes in the past 3 seasons. Dont underestimate the impact of having Cole, Campbell, Keown and Parlour when we won the title in 2004 either.

Alf, Let me be clear, I am not underestimating the influence of Keown, Adams, Parlour Wright etc, for us in 2004. Ofcourse they play a major part in our success. Fair play, that Terry and co. do contribute Chavs' successes in the last 2 years. but you can be sure, these guys are nothing without outside help.

Im not saying its one way or the other, but i dont think one can just dismiss not having any English players. You need a good balance. You need the leadership, grit, determination, experience, knowledge of the EPL, of the English players combined with the flair, and technical abilities of the overseas players.

Alright, but the thing of it is, Alf, you have to admit, that our former English players( Adams and Co. who are legends imo) cannot be compared to the likes of Terry and co. Their demands skyrocket and such, can we afford them really? The time has changed. even if it is at the space of couple of years. I have nothing against the fact that 'we should have English players so we can be successful bit', not at all. but you have to consider this. It used to be the grit and determination of success for the them, but now? It's money and celebrity statuses.

No team has won the Premiership without at least 2/3 English players in their first 11 line up. And this is not a coincidence.

Nope, I guess you could say that, having 2 or 3 'quality' English players should be more than enough imo. We won the title before because we had experience. even to be fair, we barely had any foreign players on pitch.

Apart from actual ability, the point of having certain English players is also a lot to do with the culture within the club, and its values. For example, G.Neville is a local lad, and bleeds Man Utd. He understands the culture, aims, objectives of Man Utd. He can be seen as a figure of reference at Utd. John Terry is the same at Chelsea. You have ask yourself what represents Arsenal's values historically. Ive always know us to be a 'never say die' team. But this value seems to have diluted in recent years. What is the reason? Lack of English players?

Yes, they still play part of the culture bit, but somehow, we've adapted to the multi-cultural in the squad. Maybe Wenger is trying to prove that foreigner are just as good. Sadly it's not the case in the last two season, but then again, you also have to consider the fact that Adams and Co. moved out. We lack of experience also the influence of these guy to our newly foreign players.

As someone mentioned, Toure has that Never Say Die attitude, so is Gallas, who is a winner, who wont sugar coat what ****e he's seen in our squad. It's all come down to the individual themselves. regardless their ethnicity.

Foregin players need a good kick up the backside at times when they are not peforming, and sometimes with too many foreign players are one club its a case of one too many sheep.

At this rate, we actually have the Youngsters who needs some good kicking. We still lack of experience. and the likes of those who could guide them are good as gone now. They need to find it themselves. And I'm hoping after 2 trophyless seasons changes that.

At the moment, one of the reasons Arsenal have underacheived is due to a lack of real leaders, and being arguably the weakest Arsenal team in years in terms of strength.English players traditionally are good mentally, esp in terms of work ethic, grit and determination, as well as leadership.

AGain, Gilberto has been great as a captain this season if you ask me. Excellent job, Toure despite he blew off, he still shows his passion for it don't you think?

Would Steve Sidwell, David Bentley and Matthew Upson give more effort('die for the cause') than a Gilberto, Hleb and Senderoes? Would they react better to adversity and tough obstacles throughout the season? What are the fundamental differences between the first three and the other three? Is it specific to national characteristics?

They could, I can say they are still arguable. Wenger knows it more than we do, I'm still not convinced the fact that there's English players that were as great as ours before who are affordable, not the usual price tag but can deliver as much as our former English players. Don't you think that the big difference is that Wenger used to have Adams and Co as a part of his squad a few years ago because they were English now do you? It's because of their quality if you ask me. There are some flaws in Wenger's decisions at times, but I'm fairly convinced that now he kept a formation of foreign players on the pitch because of their quality. Although not proven much just yet. but the little glimpse is there, in my opinion.

p/s : Fair Play Alfonso. You raised excellent points there. Excellent indeed.

 

[Biggus]

Oh God we're on to this English V Foreign thing again

The few English players that are good enough for us play for ManU, Chel$ki or Liverpool. They would not join us or we can't afford them.

 

[Shadow Moses]

Oh God we're on to this English V Foreign thing again

.

Tell me about it, it's like going through a bloody time machine

 

[Nemesis]

I cant believe the old 'English' grit nonsense has come up again. There is nothing particularly English about qualities like grit and determination. No one nation has a monopoly over these qualities.

Gattuso, Vieira, Davids, Essien, these players are the epitome of grit and determination. How English are any of them?

How gritty is Hoyte or Walcott or big towering Emile Heskey.

Where was Campbell's grit when he decided to walkout after the Wham game at Highbury? I could NEVER see Toure pulling a stunt like that.

 

[Kenyonhater]

5. Ade and Baptista not putting their chances away has nothing to do with an "English mentality". They've tried hard enough, Ade is young, he might improve, Baptista is old, he might not. It's as simple as that.

Ade is 23, Baptista is 25. I know what you're trying to say but to call a 25-year old "old" is just ridiculous. If he's old then Gilberto is ancient and Jens should be deaf, senile, bedridden and incontinent!

 

[Taozhe]

If british players have the winning mentality and grit, how come they never perform in the world cup? That's a team full of English internationals currently lead by an English coach. I don't see them taking the world by storm with their winning mentality and grit.

I see them stumbling out competitions. The thing is - nationality should never be the measure of quality.

They probably ADAPT better to the premiership and the lifestyle in England but one cannot say that they have better mentality, grit and loyalty.

Ashley Cole vs Cesc Fabregas
Francis Jeffers vs Robin Van Persie/Henry/Adebayor/Bergkamp
Richard Wright vs Jens Lehman