Santi Cazorla: My Friend, Is Adios, No?

[Hunta]

Too many people are rating Ramsey off of last season I feel, I remember us being exposed in midfield for a good 4-5 games due to his senseless runs forward not too long ago.

Santi's form has been better than Ramsey's at CM this year, so until any noticeable changes, that's that.

Nonsense, Ramsey has been just as good as he was last season since his return from injury, playing from the right as well. Though most people on here still think a year and half of being one of two best mids in the league is a purple patch.

 

[Lilwizzle]

Agree, but most of his great form has come from his free role on the right, where he is able to do what he pretty much wants, rather than the more disciplined role of sitting next to Coq. He's yet to show his form of last year in that position, when given a good amount of time to, that's the point.

He's been very inconsistent this season, pre and post injury, up until Wenger moved him where he's finding form

 

[bingobob]

Do we though? Arteta, Flamini, Diaby can go. Zelalem and Bielik are very young players and can play in the League Cup then go on loan. Akpom, Hayden and Gnabry can go on loan. That's 8 places freed up from the current first team squad.

I honestly don't think it's a problem nor do we need to get anywhere near selling our best players - its completely illogical and unnecessary. We could play up to 60 games next season so even if we do bring someone in there is no guarantee that they will play every week (far from it). By selling a guy like Cazorla we could end up strengthening our first XI but weakening our squad.

That would leave seven midfielders, Gnabry (according to Arsenal.com) is classed as a forward and the others were not included either. The Ox is down as a midfielder mind so if you move him up and Gnabry out then it means we have 6 registered forwards with Podolski, Sanogo, Campbell and Akpom still to return.

I do take onboard what you are saying and in an ideal world that happens, we trim Flamini, Diaby, Arteta and Rosicky, that leaves six senior players with a further addition leaving 7 players chasing 3 positions with Özil being an automatic starter so two places. Can all the players be kept happy I just don't see that happening in reality.

 

[Hunta]

Agree, but most of his great form has come from his free role on the right, where he is able to do what he pretty much wants, rather than the more disciplined role of sitting next to Coq. He's yet to show his form of last year in that position, when given a good amount of time to, that's the point.

He's been very inconsistent this season, pre and post injury, up until Wenger moved him where he's finding form

When has he played next to Coq this season? Earlier in the season we played 4141 which ****ed everybody.

 

[Big Poppa]

I think it's obvious why he should, we're wasting our best player, the player who carried us last season and won us the cup. Ramsey is a better CM than Cazorla who has become our very own Coutinho in regards to the hype he's getting from Arsenal fans or pundits.

Everything in bold is something you are entitled to have but again, is an opinion, so the opening line of it being obvious is something of an oxymoron. As for the Coutinho comparison - Santi has played for one of the best International midfields of all time, led Malaga to CL qualification and has more assists than any other player in the PL for the last 3 years. Hype? Come on now.

People go on about Hazard being a penalty merchant yet if you take away Cazorla's six you get a ****ing shoddy return from a player who's played near enough every game for us.

Hazard is a forward, Cazorla has been playing as a deep lying midfielder. Where is the comparison?? Cazorla has more assists than any other player in the Premier League since 2012. Can you imagine what that record would look like if he played with van Persie a year earlier? His job is not to score goals.

I'm not convinced of him defensively, once he's beaten that's it. Just have a look at the Chelsea game recently, how many times did Willian and co just simply drift past him in midfield leaving Coq on his own?

Fine. That again, is an observation you're entitled to. If we're going to use the Chelsea game as an example, it can easily be countered with the Man City game where he was putting in tackle after tackle and gave Coquelin plenty of protection in a big game away from home. Willian dribbles past a lot of player but Hazard, the best of the lot was nowhere to be seen. We didn't concede in either and have you had a look at our defensive record since he and Coquelin have been playing together there.

If we have to sell Cazorla to get Ramsey back in his best position then I'm all for it, the Ramsey/Özil/Giroud connection last season was the key to us being top of the league for so long.

If we have to sell Cazorla to get the best midfield for Arsenal then I'm all for it too, but to get Ramsey in his best position? How about we keep both and use Cazorla for his superior ability to start attacks from deep and Ramsey for his superior athleticism, goal threat and movement?

We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one I'm afraid. It's not about who is better, I just don't understand why selling Cazorla enters the equation. He'll not play every single match and when Ramsey (or Wilshere for that matter) get their opportunity, it will be up to them to show why they deserve that position more than Santi.

 

[Hunta]

Everything in bold is something you are entitled to have but again, is an opinion, so the opening line of it being obvious is something of an oxymoron. As for the Coutinho comparison - Santi has won the World Cup and Euro Champs, led Malaga to CL qualification and has more assists than any other player in the PL for the last 3 years. Hype? Come on now.

Nope, hasn't won the world cup and it's hardly like he was crucial in Spains Euro wins ffs, Isco was just as important for Malaga.

Hazard is a forward, Cazorla has been playing as a deep lying midfielder. Where is the comparison?? Cazorla has more assists than any other player in the Premier League since 2012. Can you imagine what that record would look like if he played with van Persie a year earlier? His job is not to score goals.

Just pointing out the hypocrisy on this forum.

Fine. That again, is an observation you're entitled to. If we're going to use the Chelsea game as an example, it can easily be countered with the Man City game where he was putting in tackle after tackle and gave Coquelin plenty of protection in a big game away from home. Willian dribbles past a lot of player but Hazard, the best of the lot was nowhere to be seen. We didn't concede in either and have you had a look at our defensive record since he and Coquelin have been playing together there.

I've seen our defensive record and it's definitely down to Coquelin more than Cazorla, think that's pretty obvious really when you look at Flamini's performances.

If we have to sell Cazorla to get the best midfield for Arsenal then I'm all for it too, but to get Ramsey in his best position? How about we keep both and use Cazorla for his superior ability to start attacks from deep and Ramsey for his superior athleticism, goal threat and movement?

We'll never see that.

We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one I'm afraid. It's not about who is better, I just don't understand why selling Cazorla enters the equation. He'll not play every single match and when Ramsey (or Wilshere for that matter) get their opportunity, it will be up to them to show why they deserve that position more than Santi.

I don't want him sold unless him staying means Ramsey has to stay out wide like he's on par with ****e like Ramires or Henderson. Ideally he'll take up Rosicky's place in the squad from next season.

 

[Lilwizzle]

When has he played next to Coq this season? Earlier in the season we played 4141 which ****ed everybody.

Played with Coq 6 full 90 minutes, in 4231.

 

[Jury]

I'd like to see Caz and Sanchez work much closer. I think they have an understanding on the pitch that nobody else has.

As good as he's been in CMF, the reason he gets noticed, like yesterday, is because of his offensive ability. It's not because he's putting in great CMF'er performances per se. You could say it's testament to how good a player he is, but it's not his bread and butter game. In the tougher games, where we're not as dominant, different questions will be asked that he wont be used to answering.

 

[Thehulk]

I think Cazorla can be kept around the team for a few more years, no sense in getting rid of a player like him, Rosicky has bailed us out of trouble on a number of occasions and I think Cazorla can do a similar job in the future, that's if he is used well.

Maybe move Rosicky on

 

[Rain Dance]

When has he played next to Coq this season? Earlier in the season we played 4141 which ****ed everybody.

He has.
Newcastle 2nd half comes to mind. Ramsey left the midfield and move ahead of Giroud while Giroud covered for him.

I was furious back then

 

[Gooner416]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/nov/21/santi-cazorla-interview-arsenal-mesut-Özil

Now stop this Santi vs Mesut bullshit. Let's co-exist.

 

[Gooner Zig]

I love Cazorla and he's been absolutely immense for us this season, but people tend to equate our winning run with Cazorla playing so well at cM. If you go back and analyse Santi's top performances this season, a significant % of those have been in Özil's position.

Think way back to earlier in the season, pre-Özil injury, Santi was playing CM and was getting slated due to wildly inconsistent performances, Özil gets injured in the Chelsea game which happens to be late October and Santi steps up and explodes in December with his nadir performance vs City away.

Özil comes back from injury and resumes the #10 role, Santi gets pushed to CM and his performances whilst still good, are no where near as effective as what we saw when he was playing #10, we're still winning games though, so these things are not as obvious. We play Leicester, Crystal Palance, Monaco and we are particularly overrun in central midfield in those games.

My opinion is that Cazorla can definitely do a job for us at CM, but against the better sides - Chelsea at home for example, we are missing something when he plays at CM, a bit more physicality and ability to cover ground which I believe Ramsey provides.

 

[Gooner Zig]

I also think Cazorla's technical ability, vision and short passing game is wasted playing in a deeper role

 

[Furious]

@Gooner Zig you're basically rewriting history, mate.

I love Cazorla and he's been absolutely immense for us this season, but people tend to equate our winning run with Cazorla playing so well at cM. If you go back and analyse Santi's top performances this season, a significant % of those have been in Özil's position.

Our winning run, or amazing form started against Dortmund home late november. That was the game after the ManU loss, where Jack got injured, which meant Santi got to start in the middle. Since then we've played 31 games, and won 25. No wonder why people equate these two.

Think way back to earlier in the season, pre-Özil injury, Santi was playing CM and was getting slated due to wildly inconsistent performances, Özil gets injured in the Chelsea game which happens to be late October and Santi steps up and explodes in December with his nadir performance vs City away.

No, he wasn't getting slaughtered for his CM performances, but for when he played on the wing. I remember the Chelsea game, where people were gutted because he was subbed off. Played CM that day.

The City game wasn't in december, but in late january. That performance was one of his best after he'd been amazing since the Dortmund game.

Özil comes back from injury and resumes the #10 role, Santi gets pushed to CM and his performances whilst still good, are no where near as effective as what we saw when he was playing #10, we're still winning games though, so these things are not as obvious. We play Leicester, Crystal Palance, Monaco and we are particularly overrun in central midfield in those games.

No, that's wrong too. When Özil came back, we were still playing 4141, and played on the wing in the first few games, but after the Middelsboro game we tried 4231 with Coq and Santi behind Mesut at number 10, and we haven't looked back since.

The only two games Santi has played as number 10 have against Sanits away, and West Ham away. Since the Dortmund home, all the other games he's played as CM in either 4231 or 4141.

Basically his good form has been all from CM, not as a number 10.. He hasn't played consistenly as number 10 since his first season, where he was moved wide so we could play Rosicky.

 

[Gooner Zig]

How am I rewriting history? Where have I done that?

So Santi didn't play #10 vs City? Could have fooled me - distinctly remember Ramsey starting that game next to Coq

I can see why you think that, I should have rephrased myself a bit better - Santi's form exploded in December and culminated in his nadir performance vs City away in January - I know full well it wasn't in December.

 

[say yes]

How am I rewriting history? Where have I done that?

So Santi didn't play #10 vs City? Could have fooled me - distinctly remember Ramsey starting that game next to Coq

I can see why you think that, I should have rephrased myself a bit better - Santi's form exploded in December and culminated in his nadir performance vs City away in January - I know full well it wasn't in December.

No, he didn't.

He played alongside Ramsey in a flat midfield four, with Coquelin holding in front of the defence.

4-1-4-1 as such:

Sanchez - Cazorla - Ramsey - Ox
-------------- Coquelin --------------

 

[Gooner Zig]

Ah yes - you've just rejigged my memory - my bad.

 

[hibeegooner]

his nadir performance vs City

:confused: Zenith?

 

[Gooner Zig]

Whoops

 

[SuriGooner]

Since Cazorla plays centre midfielder our offensive play has been much better. He makes us play our football much easier. I don't know if he likes playing behind the number 10, but it has been one of the biggest reasons for our turnaround.
If he stays that spot is for him. Wilshere and Ramsey can either play as winger or sit on the bench.