4R5Emaniac
Always fresh from Bangladesh
I don't get it, its against your claim apart from a few clubs?I give up
Last season, scroll through the teams.
http://talksport.com/football/premi...st-most-expensive-actual-league-position?p=19
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Arsenal Tactics Talk
- Thread starter The_Roadrunner
- Start date
- Replies 1,803
- Views 196,994
Fallout
Active Member
just watched the match. i felt like Özil made a real effort to pop up in deeper positions and he was able to unlock them many times. then again, they were not all that impressive defensively.
overall i think the balance between him and alexis dropping deep was on point tonight.
overall i think the balance between him and alexis dropping deep was on point tonight.
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4R5Emaniac
Always fresh from Bangladesh
Agreed. Along with that I saw Xhaka, Kos and Holding playing in a 3 but Kos central while the other two a bit forward creating a perfect connect facing forwards. This is what I banged on about when Xhaka signed to @Lancelot . That shape and positional play can prove crucial now onwards. As I've said earlier, little positional changes can be hugely beneficial for our game in every phase.
Thanks Wagner!
BobP
Memri Fan
Okay
I'm sure we can all agree that Wenger has a desire to play an attractive brand of attacking football. I'm sure we can also agree that Wenger provides his players with a degree of autonomy in relation to making decisions on the field.
In other words, improvisation and freedom are key pillars of how Wenger's Arsenal plays and has played for many year.
I suppose this is a strength as our unpredictable movements can bamboozle opponents. When it comes off its wonderful and a joy to behold, something we would all agree on.
On the flip side, it can also be said that we are shooting ourselves in the foot at times.
As we know, improvisation isn't something which comes off every time, sometimes it can be an absolute disaster.
That is our downfall, and where proper positional structures would assist us in our passing game.
If you want to play a short passing game, you need to ensure that there are shorter distances between teammates.
But this isn't always the case with us, in fact, units within our team often find themselves disconnected from one another.
The example which I always hark back to is when we're playing out of defense. We have 2 dedicated CMs, 3 if you want to include Özil, and in some cases none of them even bother to make an effort to make themselves available for the CBs who are left completely without support. This sees them having to making longer and riskier passes which are easier to cut off for the opposition.
When you look back to the first game of the season, Klopp clearly did his homework because his narrow 433 completely blocked the space in front of our defense, making it difficult for the CMs to offer support even if they thought to do so and also making it difficult for the CBs on the day to play out.
We do often see Xhaka drop deep, but again he himself becomes disconnected from the other 2 midfielders and is forced into making longer passes. We're fortunate that he's somewhat comfortable playing in such a role, nevertheless, we're just making things harder for ourselves.
In short, having our players positioned high up the pitch simply doesn't correspond to how we want to play.
Smaller distances between players allows for support and a means by which to advance the ball up the pitch. In other words, it is much more conducive for our passing game.
It's all about the triangles and creating attacking overloads. However, in our case, rather than create triangles, players often find themselves in straight lines which sees players just run up against each other, making it difficult to continue progressing up the field.
We're fortunate we have talents like Özil and Sanchez to bail us out of sticky situations with a superb little dribble or a wonderful pass, situations created by our inadequate structuring.
We're lucky that the EPL is relatively open defensively which enables our more dangerous players time and space on the ball but that is the very reason why we've failed to push through into the last 16 in the UCL.
Teams in Europe don't afford that sort of space. The home leg against Monaco is case in point, their defensive compactness completely locked us out through the middle.
I'm sure we can all agree that Wenger has a desire to play an attractive brand of attacking football. I'm sure we can also agree that Wenger provides his players with a degree of autonomy in relation to making decisions on the field.
In other words, improvisation and freedom are key pillars of how Wenger's Arsenal plays and has played for many year.
I suppose this is a strength as our unpredictable movements can bamboozle opponents. When it comes off its wonderful and a joy to behold, something we would all agree on.
On the flip side, it can also be said that we are shooting ourselves in the foot at times.
As we know, improvisation isn't something which comes off every time, sometimes it can be an absolute disaster.
That is our downfall, and where proper positional structures would assist us in our passing game.
If you want to play a short passing game, you need to ensure that there are shorter distances between teammates.
But this isn't always the case with us, in fact, units within our team often find themselves disconnected from one another.
The example which I always hark back to is when we're playing out of defense. We have 2 dedicated CMs, 3 if you want to include Özil, and in some cases none of them even bother to make an effort to make themselves available for the CBs who are left completely without support. This sees them having to making longer and riskier passes which are easier to cut off for the opposition.
When you look back to the first game of the season, Klopp clearly did his homework because his narrow 433 completely blocked the space in front of our defense, making it difficult for the CMs to offer support even if they thought to do so and also making it difficult for the CBs on the day to play out.
We do often see Xhaka drop deep, but again he himself becomes disconnected from the other 2 midfielders and is forced into making longer passes. We're fortunate that he's somewhat comfortable playing in such a role, nevertheless, we're just making things harder for ourselves.
In short, having our players positioned high up the pitch simply doesn't correspond to how we want to play.
Smaller distances between players allows for support and a means by which to advance the ball up the pitch. In other words, it is much more conducive for our passing game.
It's all about the triangles and creating attacking overloads. However, in our case, rather than create triangles, players often find themselves in straight lines which sees players just run up against each other, making it difficult to continue progressing up the field.
We're fortunate we have talents like Özil and Sanchez to bail us out of sticky situations with a superb little dribble or a wonderful pass, situations created by our inadequate structuring.
We're lucky that the EPL is relatively open defensively which enables our more dangerous players time and space on the ball but that is the very reason why we've failed to push through into the last 16 in the UCL.
Teams in Europe don't afford that sort of space. The home leg against Monaco is case in point, their defensive compactness completely locked us out through the middle.
Vinci
The Sultan of Unai
Country: Netherlands
I think more and more people are realizing that 4-2-3-1 is getting outdated and a switch might be necessary.
What other formations could possibly work? 3-4-3 is a bit of the hype now because of Chelski, but it would suit our team too and solve a few problems too.
Midfield would be much more solid with two wingbacks making up the four, rather than two attackers. Ideally we'd get an upgrade on Gibbs, but he could perform that role decently.
Özil would be moved to a centre-left position (blasphemy I know), but he would have less defensive responsibility than wingers in our current system do.
Last but not least the back three looks gorgeous and would also mask Monreal's lack of pace. It requires a lot of the wingbacks, but Bellerin often plays as one already anyway.
What other formations could possibly work? 3-4-3 is a bit of the hype now because of Chelski, but it would suit our team too and solve a few problems too.
Midfield would be much more solid with two wingbacks making up the four, rather than two attackers. Ideally we'd get an upgrade on Gibbs, but he could perform that role decently.
Özil would be moved to a centre-left position (blasphemy I know), but he would have less defensive responsibility than wingers in our current system do.
Last but not least the back three looks gorgeous and would also mask Monreal's lack of pace. It requires a lot of the wingbacks, but Bellerin often plays as one already anyway.
ArtetaCognition
Granit Xhaka Enthusiast
Country: Ireland
@Vinci
I like the idea. I talk to my dad about Arsenal after most matches - he's followed us since the late 60's. He's been clamouring for a move to a 3 at the back for a month or so now. It would, indeed, suit Bellerin and us as a whole. We have such a good attack that, generally, we don't need to overload on the offence. Arsenal's priority should be to be pragmatic and make it hard to score against us (because Sanchez will get us goals by himself!) but it seems the manager is fixated on doing the opposite.
For WBA I would play:
We know that they are going to bombard us with crosses so I think a flatter back four than normal with the added height of Gabriel, Holding and Koscielny would be handy. This is the same reason I would go with Xhaka (even though it's really hard to drop Coq as he was one of three that actually displayed effort yesterday going forward.) Hector at RM/RW to sure up their left attack which is surely where the majority of their crosses will come from - allowing Özil to drop a little deeper and play the quarter back role. I think Perez deserves the chance to go out and start for us.. he's got 5 goals in 7 appearances, mostly as a sub and with measly minutes. Alexis wants to carry the team so let him do it in the most important position.. he and Lucas would give the WBA defenders zero time on the ball and instantly have them on edge. Lastly, Iwobi on the left simply for his added strength, height and ability to carry the ball.
I like the idea. I talk to my dad about Arsenal after most matches - he's followed us since the late 60's. He's been clamouring for a move to a 3 at the back for a month or so now. It would, indeed, suit Bellerin and us as a whole. We have such a good attack that, generally, we don't need to overload on the offence. Arsenal's priority should be to be pragmatic and make it hard to score against us (because Sanchez will get us goals by himself!) but it seems the manager is fixated on doing the opposite.
For WBA I would play:
We know that they are going to bombard us with crosses so I think a flatter back four than normal with the added height of Gabriel, Holding and Koscielny would be handy. This is the same reason I would go with Xhaka (even though it's really hard to drop Coq as he was one of three that actually displayed effort yesterday going forward.) Hector at RM/RW to sure up their left attack which is surely where the majority of their crosses will come from - allowing Özil to drop a little deeper and play the quarter back role. I think Perez deserves the chance to go out and start for us.. he's got 5 goals in 7 appearances, mostly as a sub and with measly minutes. Alexis wants to carry the team so let him do it in the most important position.. he and Lucas would give the WBA defenders zero time on the ball and instantly have them on edge. Lastly, Iwobi on the left simply for his added strength, height and ability to carry the ball.
Santi's Left Foot
No Longer Sleeping in Theo's bed
It really is time to go back to the drawing board, like Conte did after we played them off the park. We need to try something else, what better games coming up to experiment and to try and solidify something. We can't keep losing or drawing to difficult or well set up sides.
Three at the back should be looked at, I don't want to see Gabriel at all however. We really get injuries at the most frustrating of times.
Gibbs and Bellerin we would hope will be composed enough in those roles going forward to contribute.
Three at the back should be looked at, I don't want to see Gabriel at all however. We really get injuries at the most frustrating of times.
Gibbs and Bellerin we would hope will be composed enough in those roles going forward to contribute.
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Country: Iceland
It is very weird that we are not practicing playing out from the back when we have Sanchez as a forward.
For a manager who like possession so much it is very weird Wenger want to surrender possession as easily by letting Cech hoofing it forward.
Might this be a problem because of our midfield? Coquelin and Xhaka must work harder to get the ball from the defence and to the forwards.
For a manager who like possession so much it is very weird Wenger want to surrender possession as easily by letting Cech hoofing it forward.
Might this be a problem because of our midfield? Coquelin and Xhaka must work harder to get the ball from the defence and to the forwards.
asukru
Established Member
Country: Canada
Player:Martinelli
This is the exact reason why we need a CM who can control a game ala Santi. I say we go big in January and splash the cash on a CM we know can control and pass - id be tempted to even bring in Xabi Alonso for God's sake. Honestly though bring in Kroos, Isco, Koke or Verratti.
I do agree with the 3-5-2 formation - I posted it a long time ago in the wishlist thread when I was watching Italy play with Conte's tactics. Ill have to find that post and post it here again.
EDIT: found it
Cech
Lahm Kosc Hummels
Bellerin Alexis
Xhaka Ramsey
Özil
Griezmann
Giroud
After watching Italy and the way Conte used the 3-5-2 to perfection. I would love for us to try something like this. Lahm Kosc Hummels
Bellerin Alexis
Xhaka Ramsey
Özil
Griezmann
Giroud
GOALIE:
Cech is like Buffon - just gets better with age.
DEFENCE:
That back 3 can all play with the ball at the feet (Lahm is like our Barzagli and Hummels is our Chiellini while Kosc plays like our Bonucci who can carry the ball out).
MIDFIELD:
Xhaka sits in front of the back 3 and is like our De Rossi. Ramsey with his engine plays a free role and is similar to what Giacherrini provided. That leaves Özil who plays in the final 3rd of the pitch and is strictly trying to create/score.
FORWARD:
Simple yet effective. Giroud acts as Pelle and Griezmann is our Eder. It's all about the one-two plays with these guys + Özil.
WINGBACKS:
Bellerin & Sanchez running up and down the flanks, causing all sorts of problems with the speed they possess.
OVERALL:
We can play many different styles. Sit and do quick counters or even press high up the field to win the ball back quickly. I think we could even play the ball out to the wing and with Giroud and Griezmann up top we can cross the ball in and get those wicked headers from both.
*KEEP IN MIND I WOULD USE MUSTAFI INSTEAD OF HUMMELS NOW*
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Mark Tobias
Mr. Agreeable
Real pity this is the only place Arsenal tactics are discussed. And if it isn't there really isn't any evidence to suggest as much
This is the exact reason why we need a CM who can control a game ala Santi. I say we go big in January and splash the cash on a CM we know can control and pass - id be tempted to even bring in Xabi Alonso for God's sake. Honestly though bring in Kroos, Isco, Koke or Verratti.
I do agree with the 3-5-2 formation - I posted it a long time ago in the wishlist thread when I was watching Italy play with Conte's tactics. Ill have to find that post and post it here again.
EDIT: found it
CechAfter watching Italy and the way Conte used the 3-5-2 to perfection. I would love for us to try something like this.
Lahm Kosc Hummels
Bellerin Alexis
Xhaka Ramsey
Özil
Griezmann
Giroud
GOALIE:
Cech is like Buffon - just gets better with age.
DEFENCE:
That back 3 can all play with the ball at the feet (Lahm is like our Barzagli and Hummels is our Chiellini while Kosc plays like our Bonucci who can carry the ball out).
MIDFIELD:
Xhaka sits in front of the back 3 and is like our De Rossi. Ramsey with his engine plays a free role and is similar to what Giacherrini provided. That leaves Özil who plays in the final 3rd of the pitch and is strictly trying to create/score.
FORWARD:
Simple yet effective. Giroud acts as Pelle and Griezmann is our Eder. It's all about the one-two plays with these guys + Özil.
WINGBACKS:
Bellerin & Sanchez running up and down the flanks, causing all sorts of problems with the speed they possess.
OVERALL:
We can play many different styles. Sit and do quick counters or even press high up the field to win the ball back quickly. I think we could even play the ball out to the wing and with Giroud and Griezmann up top we can cross the ball in and get those wicked headers from both.
*KEEP IN MIND I WOULD USE MUSTAFI INSTEAD OF HUMMELS NOW*
We have the players to play a 3-5-2, but not the squad. In a one off tournament where you play a small number of games it can be done. With our squad, taking any one player out will change the system and I do not agree with Alexis as a wing back.
When you construct a team you have to look at the players you have, the way you want to play and the best formation to fit the team defensively and offensively. The current set up is a mass of contradictions. We play with a number 10 who operates a striker when we don't have the ball, we have a ball winning midfielder who operates as a box to box midfielder and a playmaker who is screening the back four. We have two attacking full backs leaving our centre halves exposed. We have a centre forward who drops off and a wide right sided midfielder who pushes inside. We have a left sided playmaker who offers little defensive cover. Further on top of that we are meant to be an offensive passing team, yet we do not pass from the back. Wr have a goal keeper who isn't good on his feet and we go long from goal kicks and back passes when we have enough technical players to do what Man City attempt to do at a much higher level. Instead we push both full backs forward, knock a long ball, lose the second ball and instantly put ourselves under pressure. The team isn't structured to get the best out of the players we have at our disposal.
Whether you play a back 3 or a back 4 is irrelevant in my eyes. We have a solid centre half partnership and two very able full backs offensively and defensively, the problem is that defensive unit receive little protection due to the set up and ethos of the team. I would stick with the back 4.
After that is established you look at your midfield and the qualities it possesses.
Coquelin - Strengths -Ball winner, aerially competitive, effective at tracking runs, good at cutting off passing lines. Weaknesses - Not the quickest when recovering over long distances, confused in the final third, passing can be wayward, can lose possession while dribbling.
Ramsey - Strengths - 3rd man running, finishing in the box, running off the ball, combative, engine, ball retention. Weaknesses - positional awareness, dwelling on the ball, inconsistent shooting, over commits to tackles and is dribbled to easily, defensive discipline.
Xhaka - Strengths - passing, arriving on the edge of the box, shooting, aerial presence, finding passes between the lines, breaking up play, positional awareness. Weaknesses - not the quickest, not adept at dribbling, discipline.
El Neny - Strengths - ball retention and movement, short range passing, engine, shooting, pressing, combative nature, positional awareness. Weaknesses - not the strongest, not the best in the air, safe with passing.
Cazorla - Strengths - passing between lines, ball retention, tight dribbling, positional awareness. Weaknesses - engine, strength, aerial ability, recovery pace.
What that tells me is that the above 5 need to play in a 3 not a 2. The reason being that even the strongest combination of Coqzorla struggles with physicality and against stronger opposition. So where teams nowadays are reverting to a back 3 to put more bodies in midfield we need to revert to a midfield 3 in order to off set our lack of physicality in that area.
DEFENSIVELY
Coquelin is easily our best ball winner, and he is at his best when tasked with the job of screening and protecting the back four, snuffing out attacks and tracking runs. Therefore when we do not have the ball, Coquelin needs to be screening the back four.
You then have two positions to fill which are less important as long as there is a midfield 3. Xhaka/Ramsey, Xhaka/Cazorla, Xhaka/El Neny, El Neny/Ramsey, El Neny/Cazorla, Cazorla/Ramsey. It honestly does not matter as they are all technical good and having 3 of them in there opposed to 2 allows us to keep the ball better, something we have really been struggling with.
The Conundrum is Özil. He isn't going to win you the ball back, so when we don't have it he needs to be placed somewhere that will cause the least damage to the team. What we need to do in my opinion is be a little braver and play him on the flank and let him 'cheat'. In other words say to him, you don't need to come back and then see what the opposition do. Barcelona do this with their entire front line. I think we can afford to do it to one player. How many left backs really expose Bellerin? How many left backs would feel comfortable leaving Özil behind them? Not many.
So you are looking at:
------------------Coq
-----Ramsey----------Xhaka---
Özil-----------Walcott-----------Alexis
Now remember, this isn't Walcott playing through the middle. This is simply our shape when we don't have the ball.
OFFENSIVELY
When we do have the ball we know our full backs go wide, which means our play maker drops in to start the 1st phase of play of getting out of our half:
------------------------Mustafi-----Kos---------------
---------------------------------Xhaka-------------------
------------------------Coq----------------Ramsey
Bellerin--------------------------------------------------Monreal
Özil---------------------------------------------------------Alexis
---------------------------------Walcott------------------------------
During that phase, Xhaka must find either Ramsey, Alexis or Özil with a pass into feet, or a ball into space for Alexis or Walcott. Passing to Coquelin in an advanced position would be pointless. The secondary option is the full backs. Once that pass is made, and we advance into the opposition half, our shape needs to change.
----------------------Mustafi-------------Kos
--------------------------------Coquelin---------------------------
--------------------------------Xhaka---------------------------------
Bellerin--------------------------------------------------------------------Monreal
--------------------------Özil----------------Ramsey----------------------------
----------------------------------------Alexis
------------------Walcott--------------------------------------------------------
Coquelin moves to protect the back four, our two full backs push on, Ramsey pushes forward and makes runs, Özil comes off the flank, Alexis pushes forward and central, Walcott makes runs on either flank or pushes wide.
Essentially you are looking at a 4-3-3/4-5-1 when we do not have the ball and a 2-1-3-4 when we go forward.
That way Coq is defending, Xhaka is passing and making late runs to the edge of the box, Ramsey is making runs, Özil is dropping deep and finding space to create as well as making runs, Alexis is dropping deep, Walcott is running beyond and the two full backs are bombing forward. There is no need for an additional play maker from the left. When we lose the ball, Özil retreats to the right, Walcott presses central and Alexis track to the left, with our two midfielders in front of Coquelin pressing the opposing midfielders with Coquelin spare to cover.
asukru
Established Member
Country: Canada
Player:Martinelli
Great post mate!
Gooner n Proud
a.k.a. nasri_8 and Voice of Flamini
I'd personally love to see a 442 diamond formation as it will help us keep possession better in midfield whilst also not having to move Özil to one of the flanks.
Cech
Bellerin Kos Mustafi Gibbs
Xhaka
Iwobi Coquelin
Özil
Perez Alexis
Cech
Bellerin Kos Mustafi Gibbs
Xhaka
Iwobi Coquelin
Özil
Perez Alexis
Country: England
Was hoping we would experiment with a 3-5-2 and a diamond formation in preseason but I don't think it happened did it? (missed most of it)
razörist
Soft With The Ladies, Hard With The Mes
Country: Morocco
Tried this on FM for a season, won the title unbeaten. We should do this.I think more and more people are realizing that 4-2-3-1 is getting outdated and a switch might be necessary.
What other formations could possibly work? 3-4-3 is a bit of the hype now because of Chelski, but it would suit our team too and solve a few problems too.
Midfield would be much more solid with two wingbacks making up the four, rather than two attackers. Ideally we'd get an upgrade on Gibbs, but he could perform that role decently.
Özil would be moved to a centre-left position (blasphemy I know), but he would have less defensive responsibility than wingers in our current system do.
Last but not least the back three looks gorgeous and would also mask Monreal's lack of pace. It requires a lot of the wingbacks, but Bellerin often plays as one already anyway.
Vinci
The Sultan of Unai
Country: Netherlands
Excellent, I'll work it out in a thousand page report and mail it to Wenger.
razörist
Soft With The Ladies, Hard With The Mes
Country: Morocco
I'll send you my FM team report with the strenghts and weaknesses to attach to your report, it will blow his mind.
Vinci
The Sultan of Unai
Country: Netherlands
razörist
Soft With The Ladies, Hard With The Mes
Country: Morocco
Thanks to you he won't have to anymore.
Country: Iceland
I really like that 3-4-3 as thought experiment. It really feels like it could mask the flaws of lot of players.
I was always trying to find the third center back to be in such system and I think @Vinci hit the nail on the head with that one, placing Monreal as the third cb.
This system in my opinion could mask the flaws of players like Monreal, Gibbs, Ramsey, Özil, Iwobi and even Xhaka. I'm still not sure how Coquelin would flourish but he might do better.
I think we have few very good players, but we are killing any thing good they have with a outdated system 4-2-3-1. Sadly I don't see Wenger changing a system in the middle of the season, if ever. He is obsessed with what Barcelona did to the world not long ago.
I was always trying to find the third center back to be in such system and I think @Vinci hit the nail on the head with that one, placing Monreal as the third cb.
This system in my opinion could mask the flaws of players like Monreal, Gibbs, Ramsey, Özil, Iwobi and even Xhaka. I'm still not sure how Coquelin would flourish but he might do better.
I think we have few very good players, but we are killing any thing good they have with a outdated system 4-2-3-1. Sadly I don't see Wenger changing a system in the middle of the season, if ever. He is obsessed with what Barcelona did to the world not long ago.
