PL | Manchester City v Arsenal | 5th November 2017 | 14:15 GMT | Sky Sports

[FreakySami]

MOTD analysis makes sense for once. Better off not pressing than pressing disjointedly.

Alexis does this often when he's up top by himself. Nothing to talk about. When we actually pressed, we won the ball or they kicked it out for a throwing or lobbed it out

 

[A Lighter Shade of Blue]

Im not one for making up stuff to make myself better, but that pen was soft and Sterling went to ground rather than being forced off his feet. He doesn't even do it well.

Now, one could argue there was definitely contact--albeit upper-body--but was that enough to force him to the ground? He takes a step after initial contact before his left leg goes limp... That's not a natural reaction to that type of contact. Referees are told to book players for going to ground, as harsh at that decision might have been had he booked Sterling.

If there was video replays that pen isn't given the majority of the time. It was soft.

There was a push, also he clattered into his legs, as the replays on MoTD last night showed.

There should have been another penalty in the first half, which would have resulted in a red card for Kolasinac too.

 

[Makingtrax]

I agree about the Kane & Alli part. There is a part of luck obviously.

I'm talking about the things you have control over.
If I was a Liverpool fan I would be mad about Klopp not bringing in any defenders/top keeper. They tried for VVD but it hasn't worked out. They had no plan B.
That's the kind of thing you have control over and can be fixed. Liverpool has the ressources to bring in new defenders and try to improve this area.

Same goes for Arsenal. We have obvious weaknesses/problems that hasn't been addressed for too long.
I love Wenger and have a huge respect for the manager he is but I don't think he's the right guy for the job anymore. He had a few shots but he couldn't improve the team. There's no shame in that.
Other great managers have left their clubs because it was not working out anymore.
Last summer was the opportunity to start over with a new coach and try a different approach. Something new.
I'm not saying I'm sure we'd be better with another coach at the head of the team but at least we're trying to improve.

If you do your best and everything within your power to try to improve things but it's still not enough to compete, then fine.
It's part of the game. They have more money they buy better players and a better coach. But at least we've done our best. No regrets.
I don't have the feeling the club is doing that atm.

Some Liverpool fans are super mad with Klopp, no plan B etc, like you said. But I think he's a superb manager and if Wenger went, I'd love him in charge.

I've said it many times and still believe it . . all the managers at the top know their stuff. What separates them . . . . money, luck, transfers.

Transfers are a big gamble, even with the modern software. Players are human and sometimes the best players don't fit in and play badly, like Di Maria. But with money you can recycle them fast and make a loss. Without money you keep them and try to turn it around.

And money smooths over transfers. Klopp may have had defenders in his sights but they didn't come off. But City can entice almost any players with over inflated offers.

Signing existing players is a gamble. Kane and Alli perochial, happy to resign, Sanchez and Coutinho, cosmopolitan, like to move on regardless. Nothing the club can do about it, despite fans being critical.

It so easy to criticise managers without understanding the constraints they're working under or knowing the truth behind the scenes.

 

[Ceballinhos]

Some Liverpool fans are super mad with Klopp, no plan B etc, like you said. But I think he's a superb manager and if Wenger went, I'd love him in charge.

I've said it many times and still believe it . . all the managers at the top know their stuff. What separates them . . . . money, luck, transfers.

Transfers are a big gamble, even with the modern software. Players are human and sometimes the best players don't fit in and play badly, like Di Maria. But with money you can recycle them fast and make a loss. Without money you keep them and try to turn it around.

And money smooths over transfers. Klopp may have had defenders in his sights but they didn't come off. But City can entice almost any players with over inflated offers.

Signing existing players is a gamble. Kane and Alli perochial, happy to resign, Sanchez and Coutinho, cosmopolitan, like to move on regardless. Nothing the club can do about it, despite fans being critical.

It so easy to criticise managers without understanding the constraints they're working under or knowing the truth behind the scenes.

I think he's a very good manager too btw.

But he took the gamble to not bring in anyone and so far it has failed.
He has to accept the consequences at the end of the season if they miss the top 4 because of their defence.

I know there is a lot going behind the scenes that we're not aware of.
But at the same time I see teams doing a better job with limited ressources. It means it's still possible to improve.

What makes it worse for Wenger IMO he keeps doing the same mistakes that are making things harder.

I agree with everything you've said with the money part.

But come on, we're still Arsenal. We still have the ressources to address our weaknesses.
Our midfield has been a problem from Cazorla's issues with injuries. We haven't tried to address this for 2 years.

Mourinho when he was at Chelsea has brought Matic Cesc and Costa (at prices we can afford, nothing crazy) and they won the title thanks to them.

It tooks us 4 or 5 years to buy an upgrade on Giroud.
9 years to properly replace Lehmann.
How many years are we going to wait to fix our midfield?

 

[goonerwarsh]

I saw a team that battled hard on the pitch yesterday bro. They were outgunned by more skilful players . . . but not by much, and got no luck with the ref.

Other teams stop and put their hand up these days to try and influence the linesman during an obvious offside, it's not just Arsenal ( I don't like it though)

Champions league we've often got through to the last 16, where we meet Barca or Bayern.

We are not mediocre by any real definition of the word.

Money is increasingly more important, no point in comparing the old days. Football is changing fast.

In my view, like a lot of our fans, you suffer from 'confirmation bias'.
Confirmation bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses.

That's my diagnosis.

You keep saying how football is changing fast and of course it is evolving but the basic principles are and will always be the same. It's still 11 men verses 11 men. There is still merit in working harder, being properly prepared, having a correct team ethic, and respecting that you have to do the dirty work on the training ground to reap the results on the pitch. I truly truly believe we have only been half coached for years with not enough attention paid to rectifying gaping deficiencies in our side that have been evident year after year after year.

Of course there's a correlation between the highest spend and who wins but to say that's all that matters is wrong and frankly giving the powers that be at Arsenal an easy way out.

You acknowledge how good Pochettino is, he is the case in point. Raneiri did it just a couple of years ago, and Alex Ferguson was the absolute master at it. You have a bit of pride in your performance, you create a togetherness, and a fear in your team where the club comes first and when step on that pitch you ****ing well perform and leave it all out there. They might not win these trophies but at least they look like they can. At least they're not rolling over like we are.

Poch reminds me of a young Ferguson, in that you can see he respects both sides of the game. Tottenham are strong everywhere, I saw their game at United a couple of weeks back and though they lost they were absolutely bruising. Very rarely do you ever see them not competing. When was the last time they got the kind of hammering that we get fairly regularly now? If you're gonna beat them you're gonna have to go to hell and back to do it. What they did to Madrid, Real ****ing Madrid, not only over one leg but two legs was insane. You know why? Because they have a manager with a true inner steel and he gives those players belief. I've been saying it for three or four years, that side is on the rise and we have sat back, made all the excuses how it's unfair, how everyone has more money, how injured our players are, how bad the refs are. We've blamed everything and everyone other than ourselves, and we've charged our fans the highest ticket price in the land for the privilege.

For years we've let our players call the shots by being to meek to really handle the situations properly. We've been put over a barrel by players as **** as Theo Walcott, a man who is the very definition of what it is to be a modern day Arsenal player. How the **** are we meant to achieve anything when half the team don't even want to be there. I listened to the arsecast last week and they had a whole section on whether we should play Alexis at City because he's probably joining them. They concluded we probably should as he'll want to show them how good he is. Now sit back and actually analyse that and that mentality. We've actually got enemies in the camp with half committed players only interested in lining their pockets, let alone our fighting the ****ing opposition.

I am absolutely sick to the back teeth of this gutless, soulless, ignorant and apathetic corporate entity we've become.

Rant over.

 

[say yes]

Surprised that there’s any debate over those decisions. All very black and white for me.

Kolasinac shove - Never a penalty

Monreal on Sterling - Definite penalty

Jesus goal - Definite offside

City thoroughly deserved their win, and I don’t blame them at all for the lineman being useless.

That being said, the offside was a truly sickening decision given that it came just as we looked like we might have a chance in the game.

Extra anger points for:
(a) Alan Smith’s commentary;
(b) The fact we lost to an offside call in the 2-1 last year;
(c) The sheer ****ing obviousness of it. I almost don’t blame our defence for not playing to the whistle.

 

[VancouverCanuck]

The question is would you level all those criticisms at them too? I think not, the chances are both those clubs are busting a gut but without their loan players turning out to be world class eg Kane and Alli.

Alli was bought only a couple of years ago. And loaned back to the previous team to finish the season.

Credit where credit is due. Their scouting system has outperformed ours in the last several years.

And the fact is we could have bought most of their key players if we wanted to. I am talking about Lloris, Alderweireld, Alli, Erickson, etc. They were all sold for a reasonable price that we could easily afford. As far as I know, Kane is the only key player they have developed.

We used to find rough diamonds like Viera, Anelka, RVP, etc. That has no longer been the case for years.

 

[prenny]

First goal was great. 2nd goal came from dodgy penalty decision when were footballers *****s who couldn't take a shoulder barge and third goal was offside. Arsenals goal questions why in the hell did Wenger not play Lacazette from start

 

[Makingtrax]

You keep saying how football is changing fast and of course it is evolving but the basic principles are and will always be the same. It's still 11 men verses 11 men. There is still merit in working harder, being properly prepared, having a correct team ethic, and respecting that you have to do the dirty work on the training ground to reap the results on the pitch. I truly truly believe we have only been half coached for years with not enough attention paid to rectifying gaping deficiencies in our side that have been evident year after year after year.

Of course there's a correlation between the highest spend and who wins but to say that's all that matters is wrong and frankly giving the powers that be at Arsenal an easy way out.

You acknowledge how good Pochettino is, he is the case in point. Raneiri did it just a couple of years ago, and Alex Ferguson was the absolute master at it. You have a bit of pride in your performance, you create a togetherness, and a fear in your team where the club comes first and when step on that pitch you ****ing well perform and leave it all out there. They might not win these trophies but at least they look like they can. At least they're not rolling over like we are.

Poch reminds me of a young Ferguson, in that you can see he respects both sides of the game. Tottenham are strong everywhere, I saw their game at United a couple of weeks back and though they lost they were absolutely bruising. Very rarely do you ever see them not competing. When was the last time they got the kind of hammering that we get fairly regularly now? If you're gonna beat them you're gonna have to go to hell and back to do it. What they did to Madrid, Real ****ing Madrid, not only over one leg but two legs was insane. You know why? Because they have a manager with a true inner steel and he gives those players belief. I've been saying it for three or four years, that side is on the rise and we have sat back, made all the excuses how it's unfair, how everyone has more money, how injured our players are, how bad the refs are. We've blamed everything and everyone other than ourselves, and we've charged our fans the highest ticket price in the land for the privilege.

For years we've let our players call the shots by being to meek to really handle the situations properly. We've been put over a barrel by players as **** as Theo Walcott, a man who is the very definition of what it is to be a modern day Arsenal player. How the **** are we meant to achieve anything when half the team don't even want to be there. I listened to the arsecast last week and they had a whole section on whether we should play Alexis at City because he's probably joining them. They concluded we probably should as he'll want to show them how good he is. Now sit back and actually analyse that and that mentality. We've actually got enemies in the camp with half committed players only interested in lining their pockets, let alone our fighting the ****ing opposition.

I am absolutely sick to the back teeth of this gutless, soulless, ignorant and apathetic corporate entity we've become.

Rant over.

That's a long post and you've raised endless points about different managers, training/coaching, role of money in football, mentality, and retaining players and enemies in the camp.

It would be an essay to answer all that bro. If you want to break it down, I'm more than happy to reply to any of those points.

 

[Makingtrax]

Alli was bought only a couple of years ago. And loaned back to the previous team to finish the season.

Credit where credit is due. Their scouting system has outperformed ours in the last several years.

And the fact is we could have bought most of their key players if we wanted to. I am talking about Lloris, Alderweireld, Alli, Erickson, etc. They were all sold for a reasonable price that we could easily afford. As far as I know, Kane is the only key player they have developed.

We used to find rough diamonds like Viera, Anelka, RVP, etc. That has no longer been the case for years.

Most scouting even with the most sophisticated software is a lottery.

Kane was loaned out 4 times, nobody knew how he would turn out.

Sp**s have a side that have come good and gelled, without spending a fortune.

But here's your myths, Pochettino has not created all that. If that could be done easily, teams would not need to spend the GDP of a small country to win titles and lesser teams would win the league more frequently.

 

[goonerwarsh]

That's a long post and you've raised endless points about different managers, training/coaching, role of money in football, mentality, and retaining players and enemies in the camp.

It would be an essay to answer all that bro. If you want to break it down, I'm more than happy to reply to any of those points.

That's a long post and you've raised endless points about different managers, training/coaching, role of money in football, mentality, and retaining players and enemies in the camp.

It would be an essay to answer all that bro. If you want to break it down, I'm more than happy to reply to any of those points.

I owe you a reply mate to the last long post you sent me a week or so back but I got really busy and never got round to it and the conversation had long moved on.

I know I covered huge bases with that rant, I could write for hours on the fundamental issues that I think are present in the fabric of modern day Arsenal but it's all been said in one way or another by other members on here. For every point I made above I could converse with you for a long time on.

I can only speak for myself, I'm pretty much a life long fan and yet I can never remember feeling so detached from and apathetic towards the club as I do now. Arsenal still do a lot of things right, but for me they have completely lost the identity and values on what made them great. Arsenal used to represent strength in adversity, I think we are the complete antithesis of that now.

 

[Makingtrax]

I owe you a reply mate to the last long post you sent me a week or so back but I got really busy and never got round to it and the conversation had long moved on.

I know I covered huge bases with that rant, I could write for hours on the fundamental issues that I think are present in the fabric of modern day Arsenal but it's all been said in one way or another by other members on here. For every point I made above I could converse with you for a long time on.

I can only speak for myself, I'm pretty much a life long fan and yet I can never remember feeling so detached from and apathetic towards the club as I do now. Arsenal still do a lot of things right, but for me they have completely lost the identity and values on what made them great. Arsenal used to represent strength in adversity, I think we are the complete antithesis of that now.

I can see why you'd think Arsenal have lost it's values of strength in adversity.

Maybe Wenger tried to move on with his ideas of strategy, speed of passing and intricacies to develop an unbeatable technical team. But forgot about robustness and steel. The formula for a title winning team that doesn't spend a small fortune remains elusive. I doubt Ranieri really knows how he did and will never repeat it anywhere else.

 

[A Lighter Shade of Blue]

Do any of the Arsenalfantv lot post on here?

And, any idea why that Arsenal lad got arrested in the South Stand concourse at the end of the game, and why your lot were so animated outside at the coach entrance to your area after the game?

Lot's of silly little boys mouthing off and bouncing around behind the line of police. Saw one or two of your lads get nicked there too.

Seemed very strange as it was generally light-hearted banter inside the stadium.

 

[Jonathan Mccombie]

even though penalty can be judged as soft (personally felt it was a penalty) and their is clearly two offsides for the third man city goal, Arsenal were clearly outclassed, man city missed a couple of opportunities to score through misplaced square balls, Sterling was guilty of this in particular. Arsenal is far to easy to carve open, combined with the issue of Xhaka and Ramsey offering little to no protection, Arsenal are just far to easy to play against for any team of a high standard. If Arsenal lose to Sp**s which is highly possible, the atmosphere within the club could be completely toxic.
If Chelsea can find consistency, Arsenal are not a top four team this season and are at a similar level to Liverpool, if not slightly below, so currently fifth is the best Arsenal could achieve but sixth is more likely

 

[A Lighter Shade of Blue]

I can see why you'd think Arsenal have lost it's values of strength in adversity.

Maybe Wenger tried to move on with his ideas of strategy, speed of passing and intricacies to develop an unbeatable technical team. But forgot about robustness and steel. The formula for a title winning team that doesn't spend a small fortune remains elusive. I doubt Ranieri really knows how he did and will never repeat it anywhere else.

Blood spinning. Bit of an open secret that Leicester City were doing it.

Still a great story though, them coming from nowhere to do it, getting so many penalties on the way, not like Thai owners are averse to trying to pay their way to the top. Yes, I do know.

 

[GeorgiaGunner]

Blood spinning. Bit of an open secret that Leicester City were doing it.

Still a great story though, them coming from nowhere to do it, getting so many penalties on the way, not like Thai owners are averse to trying to pay their way to the top. Yes, I do know.

Bonar claims his quotes were misinterpreted, and Leicester wasn't the only club fingered for PEDs to begin with (if I recall correctly, Arsenal was listed). PRP is also not illegal, and the benefits are nebulous -- really hope you're kidding, ascribing any non-negligible part of their win to the treatment.

But yeah, hugely unfair that Leicester don't get the same stick for 'buying a title.'

 

[Dokaka]

**** me, just watched the goals. Offside on one but the way the defense reacted was downright shameful. You play to the whistle. The goal likely wouldn't have happened if they weren't all hands up looking at the linesman. Shocking defending. Not like it was some incredibly robbery of an offside call, maybe half a body offside.

Penalty call was kind of whatever. Nacho went in clumsy and kicked Sterling at the back of the calf, although you could argue that only happened because he was already falling over. I've seen that penalty given to you lot this season to be fair:

https://my.mixtape.moe/kbvruo.mp4

Over the top reaction from Wenger I reckon, but then again I only saw the goals and don't know if you got continually ****ed the entire game.

 

[BobP]

I can see why you'd think Arsenal have lost it's values of strength in adversity.

Maybe Wenger tried to move on with his ideas of strategy, speed of passing and intricacies to develop an unbeatable technical team. But forgot about robustness and steel. The formula for a title winning team that doesn't spend a small fortune remains elusive. I doubt Ranieri really knows how he did and will never repeat it anywhere else.

I stress this all the time, and Wenger has pointed it out on numerous occasions, but going back to the blueprint he had laid out earlier in his reign is simply out of the question. Putting aside the fact that football has changed massively since that period, it's nigh on impossible to snag the sorts of players we had during that period. The likes of Vieira, Henry, Bergkamp, Pires and so on were exceptional talents, and even if a player similar to them emerged the chances of them wanting to play for Arsenal, in light of the money flying about in football, is decidedly slim.

Most scouting even with the most sophisticated software is a lottery.

Kane was loaned out 4 times, nobody knew how he would turn out.

Sp**s have a side that have come good and gelled, without spending a fortune.

But here's your myths, Pochettino has not created all that. If that could be done easily, teams would not need to spend the GDP of a small country to win titles and lesser teams would win the league more frequently.

You're downplaying the exceptional job Pochettino has done. There are only 10 players remaining from the 2014-2015 Tottenham squad. He wasted no time in clearing the squad of players who he deemed to not be good enough, something which we all know is a weakness of Wenger's. In some cases, he even succeeded in augmenting the value of certain players who obviously wouldn't last the journey i.e. Mason and Chadli, before selling them off for relatively good fees.

Furthermore, Pochettino has improved the careers of a host of players who were seen to be under-performing. You could look to Danny Rose who was at one stage a proper scapegoat, who is now a strong performer at LB. One could also cite Walker, Eriksen, and Dembele as players who took their game to the next level under Pochettino.

You mention the 'luck' of stumbling upon Kane and Alli but at the end of the day it takes real bravery for a manager to play a kid who had been on numerous loan spells without ever really asserting himself, and to play, and persist, with a 18-19 year old kid who had just arrived from the 2nd division or so.

 

[HollandGooner]

I read somewhere that Guardiola's net spend at City is only £7m more than Mourinho's at United.

**** me, just watched the goals. Offside on one but the way the defense reacted was downright shameful. You play to the whistle. The goal likely wouldn't have happened if they weren't all hands up looking at the linesman. Shocking defending. Not like it was some incredibly robbery of an offside call, maybe half a body offside.

Penalty call was kind of whatever. Nacho went in clumsy and kicked Sterling at the back of the calf, although you could argue that only happened because he was already falling over. I've seen that penalty given to you lot this season to be fair:

https://my.mixtape.moe/kbvruo.mp4

Over the top reaction from Wenger I reckon, but then again I only saw the goals and don't know if you got continually ****ed the entire game.

I found it more frustrating that Wenger wasnt capable of changing tactics in this game should have pushed Coquelin more forward to play as our third midfielder instead of moving back, with Silva and De Bruyne in the middle you need to put pressure on them not giving them time on the ball just like we did. Specially in the last games teams are finding us out put pressure on Ramsey and Xhaka then our game is done because we don't have any options to release the ball.

And of course it was not an a penalty or a goal which should have not been counted they still where the better side simple as that, we should have done our tactics better as a team.

I even saw a picture from our attacking point we were going forward with 8 players and left a big gap in midfield, how can you do that specially against Man City?

 

[Ceballinhos]