Mikel Arteta: Aston La Vista To The Title?

[SA Gunner]

I agree. What do you suspect is the reason why we're unable to control matches for 70+ minutes?

I think its primarily a confidence and belief thing. They dont believe that they can continuously push the opposition and stop them in their tracks and take the game away from them. I noticed G Jesus during the Leicester match, think it was between our first and second goal. G Jesus was pushing up to press, and he looked back to see no one following him. He's reaction was to call the players to follow him, push up and force matters.

Its easy to see the confidence sap out the boys... like Ramsdale playing a bad pass, or conceding as he did on Saturday. Saliba's misplaced header is also an example of what can get the boys retreating. Teams are now looking for that so they can get a grip in the game.

It doesnt have to be constant attacks for 90 minutes. Control also means keeping the ball, and take the life out of the opposition, especially when the crowd is behind them. That will come with more experience, success and belief.

 

[BergMan]

I think its primarily a confidence and belief thing. They dont believe that they can continuously push the opposition and stop them in their tracks and take the game away from them. I noticed G Jesus during the Leicester match, think it was between our first and second goal. G Jesus was pushing up to press, and he looked back to see no one following him. He's reaction was to call the players to follow him, push up and force matters.

Its easy to see the confidence sap out the boys... like Ramsdale playing a bad pass, or conceding as he did on Saturday. Saliba's misplaced header is also an example of what can get the boys retreating. Teams are now looking for that so they can get a grip in the game.

It doesnt have to be constant attacks for 90 minutes. Control also means keeping the ball, and take the life out of the opposition, especially when the crowd is behind them. That will come with more experience, success and belief.

One area of concern for me was Partey's passing accuracy of 69% against Leicester. A DM has to have a passing accuracy of at least 90%, that's non negotiable. Is it a confidence issue or is there too much distance between our midfield given how attacking we try to be? We seem to be making that trade off of having more attacking dominance inside and around the box at the cost of less control of the game. Man City don't have this problem however, they're able to maintain both factors much better.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

.

Appointing Arteta wasn't the mistake at the time, it was a big risk but if someone saw potential in him I don't blame the club trying someone left field or inexperienced. Not cutting your losses when he was both not delivering results and alienating a bunch of players was the mistake as you've acknowledged yourself.

That doesn't compute. If he's given 300m every season until 2026 and eventually wins the title at that point in time because Klopp and Guardiola retired does that mean *he* was a success? What if another manager would've gotten us there in half the time and/or funding?

If you appoint a novice manager it's got to be baked into your expectations that there are going to be growing pains and issues caused by his inexperience.

If you're looking at it in a short tem way there was absolutely no point in appointing a novice manager whoever it was. Would have been much better going for an Ancelotti type. He probably would have been sacked after the poor first half of Arteta's second season.

I guess my point is, I don't believe Arteta has overall been a failure. I'm not saying he's set the league alight either but I think the stuff about Arteta being a failure has been repeated to the point that it just becomes an accepted fact.

His first season he was 1 point off top 4 pace during his actual spell in charge and won the FA Cup. I don't believe it's fair to put the 8th place finish on him. That was a good start.

The first half of his second season was abject and if he got sacked he would have no reason to complain and I think he would have been if he wasn't a rookie manager. Second half of the season was top 4 pace, but still 8th overall was poor.

Last season was disappointing the way we bottled 4th and particularly to who be bottled it too but putting the emotions to one side 5th is about par for where we should be when you look at most of the metrics. It was a decent season.

During his 2.5 or so years here we've been on or around top 4 pace for all of it bar that awful 5 months or so. I'm not saying we should be giving him a standing ovation for the job he's done but I don't think he's been a total failure either.

 

[SA Gunner]

Agree with palace game. Not with Leicester. Just look at this -

We were in control totally. 2 goals we conceded should never have been goals. Both were just individual errors.

Leicester started the game better for few min and were ok for few min after Rodgers subs. This happens. I don't think any team can control literally every minute in 95 minutes.

I don't get Chelsea Sp**s example. Yes Chelsea dominated similar to us but they ended up giving far more (and better) opportunities to Sp**s than we ever gave to Leicester (though Sp**s are much better than Leicester, just comparing the control in these 2 games)

Let me start with Sp**s.

Sp**s create high quality chances because they are designed to counter attack at pace, specifically when the opposition is out of shape, nothing new there. If you look at their general positioning, Conte always tries to have them with 2 attacking players outside of their defensive lines. They will look to maintain that base shape regardless of the game situation or opposition.

This is why Tuchel dominates Conte in most of their games, because TT knows that Conte will always look to stay compact and deep. So TT needs to at the very least match them with numbers, and prevent them from running into space.

Sp**s will obviously get better chances because as much as their tactics remain easy to pick up and plan against, are they dangerous and difficult to manage. Add to that arguably the best attacking players in the league, or at the very least top 2/3.

 

[SA Gunner]

One area of concern for me was Partey's passing accuracy of 69% against Leicester. A DM has to have a passing accuracy of at least 90%, that's non negotiable. Is it a confidence issue or is there too much distance between our midfield given how attacking we try to be? We seem to be making that trade off of having more attacking dominance inside and around the box at the cost of less control of the game. Man City don't have this problem however, they're able to maintain both factors much better.

Keeping spaces tight between our lines means we need to continously push up in attack, and if you look at some of the situations in the Leicester game for example you'll see our reluctance to do so at times. That sort of aggressive positioning needs confidence and belief in the ability recover time after time.

As for TP5, I think we can figure out what contributes to his diminishing form (please keep that to yourself). But yes, you are right... for us to continue to tick as a top team, we need our #6 to have consistently high and reliable progressive and defensive stats.

 

[Deleted member 102404]

Well, spending more doesn't always mean results. Plenty of teams has been spending a lot over the last 10 years and not made good steps.

If we had Klopp last year and now again this year, I bet you wouldn't say it's just because of money.

Funny thing is that Sp**s, Newcastle and Liverpool have spent more than us in 2022.
I guess Conte Klopp and Howe could just be replaced with anyone.

 

[SA Gunner]

Agree with palace game. Not with Leicester. Just look at this -

We were in control totally. 2 goals we conceded should never have been goals. Both were just individual errors.

Leicester started the game better for few min and were ok for few min after Rodgers subs. This happens. I don't think any team can control literally every minute in 95 minutes.

I don't get Chelsea Sp**s example. Yes Chelsea dominated similar to us but they ended up giving far more (and better) opportunities to Sp**s than we ever gave to Leicester (though Sp**s are much better than Leicester, just comparing the control in these 2 games)

Tactically Rodgers and other teams watching us know that we have spaces behind our fullbacks, due to Zinny and Tomi/White inverting. So they will look to attack those spaces behind as soon as they get a chance to. If you look at the Vardy penalty call and Madison's goal you will see them both in the same left sided zone. Now I am not smart enough to answer you on how we can solve this problem, but I do expect Arteta and team to find the answers for us.

Re control, I agree with you, we cant control control the game for 95 minutes, I dont even think City does. What we can do is control the ball, and where it moves to both in possession (attack or just keeping possession) or without possession (forcing the opposition into areas where they cannot hurt us). We shoudl be aiming for this over the course of this season. Once we achieve that consistently, we'll be a big big problem.

 

[Tir Na Nog]

At the moments things are going well, with the majority of players fit and ready, specifically the starting XI players we can beat most teams. It was a similar situation last season tho, apart from United and Everton defeats, most of the time we were beating teams we should beat once we had the majority available and things were in our favour. The problems came typically against Liverpool and City regardless of who was available, but also when we were missing 1 or 2 key players, particularly Partey. The latter is a point I've been hammering home, because I can see the writing on the wall in our current situation, we're basically banking on him being available throughout the season and particularly the tough run in. When things aren't in our favour, we've maybe had a bad result, we're missing some starters, that's when it all fell apart last season.

So currently it's hard to really compare this season to last because we haven't faced great difficult with either fixtures or the squad. I also think we only came from behind once to win last season if I'm not mistaken (I might be wrong), so for me that's another issue we have. If we fall behind and have to chase we seem like we find it hard to get back into games. So I'll be looking out for certain things. How we deal in difficulty in terms of player availability and maybe if we go a goal behind. How we adapt to games we're not in complete control of because it's unrealistic to control every game for 90 minutes every time, we have to be able to adjust to the circumstances of the game. And how we deal in those big fixtures, or fixtures when pressure is on. Last season we went on two winning runs or at least runs were we won a lot, and both came when the pressure was off, the second the pressure was on and expectations became bigger we crumbled.

 

[Makavelii]

If you appoint a novice manager it's got to be baked into your expectations that there are going to be growing pains and issues caused by his inexperience.

If you're looking at it in a short tem way there was absolutely no point in appointing a novice manager whoever it was. Would have been much better going for an Ancelotti type. He probably would have been sacked after the poor first half of Arteta's second season.

I guess my point is, I don't believe Arteta has overall been a failure. I'm not saying he's set the league alight either but I think the stuff about Arteta being a failure has been repeated to the point that it just becomes an accepted fact.

His first season he was 1 point off top 4 pace during his actual spell in charge and won the FA Cup. I don't believe it's fair to put the 8th place finish on him. That was a good start.

The first half of his second season was abject and if he got sacked he would have no reason to complain and I think he would have been if he wasn't a rookie manager. Second half of the season was top 4 pace, but still 8th overall was poor.

Last season was disappointing the way we bottled 4th and particularly to who be bottled it too but putting the emotions to one side 5th is about par for where we should be when you look at most of the metrics. It was a decent season.

During his 2.5 or so years here we've been on or around top 4 pace for all of it bar that awful 5 months or so. I'm not saying we should be giving him a standing ovation for the job he's done but I don't think he's been a total failure either.

Also need to consider the impact he’s had at reconnecting with the fans which will pay ongoing dividends.

Apart from the sour lot on this forum, the Arsenal fan base are much more engaged and excited than we’ve been in 10-20 years.

 

[SA Gunner]

At the moments things are going well, with the majority of players fit and ready, specifically the starting XI players we can beat most teams. It was a similar situation last season tho, apart from United and Everton defeats, most of the time we were beating teams we should beat once we had the majority available and things were in our favour. The problems came typically against Liverpool and City regardless of who was available, but also when we were missing 1 or 2 key players, particularly Partey. The latter is a point I've been hammering home, because I can see the writing on the wall in our current situation, we're basically banking on him being available throughout the season and particularly the tough run in. When things aren't in our favour, we've maybe had a bad result, we're missing some starters, that's when it all fell apart last season.

So currently it's hard to really compare this season to last because we haven't faced great difficult with either fixtures or the squad. I also think we only came from behind once to win last season if I'm not mistaken (I might be wrong), so for me that's another issue we have. If we fall behind and have to chase we seem like we find it hard to get back into games. So I'll be looking out for certain things. How we deal in difficulty in terms of player availability and maybe if we go a goal behind. How we adapt to games we're not in complete control of because it's unrealistic to control every game for 90 minutes every time, we have to be able to adjust to the circumstances of the game. And how we deal in those big fixtures, or fixtures when pressure is on. Last season we went on two winning runs or at least runs were we won a lot, and both came when the pressure was off, the second the pressure was on and expectations became bigger we crumbled.

100%

Didnt need to add to your post, but **** it here I am doing it.

As good as we've looked at times so far, have we not done anything amazingly different to last season. You could probably make the case for us scoring more goals and taking our chances more.

Im waiting to see how we handle having to chase the game again, and having to break down teams who dont need to do anything but sit deep (Sp**s). Those will be the real tests for our boys.

 

[jones]

If you appoint a novice manager it's got to be baked into your expectations that there are going to be growing pains and issues caused by his inexperience.

If you're looking at it in a short tem way there was absolutely no point in appointing a novice manager whoever it was. Would have been much better going for an Ancelotti type. He probably would have been sacked after the poor first half of Arteta's second season.

I guess my point is, I don't believe Arteta has overall been a failure. I'm not saying he's set the league alight either but I think the stuff about Arteta being a failure has been repeated to the point that it just becomes an accepted fact.

His first season he was 1 point off top 4 pace during his actual spell in charge and won the FA Cup. I don't believe it's fair to put the 8th place finish on him. That was a good start.

The first half of his second season was abject and if he got sacked he would have no reason to complain and I think he would have been if he wasn't a rookie manager. Second half of the season was top 4 pace, but still 8th overall was poor.

Last season was disappointing the way we bottled 4th and particularly to who be bottled it too but putting the emotions to one side 5th is about par for where we should be when you look at most of the metrics. It was a decent season.

During his 2.5 or so years here we've been on or around top 4 pace for all of it bar that awful 5 months or so. I'm not saying we should be giving him a standing ovation for the job he's done but I don't think he's been a total failure either.

What is "top 4 pace" supposed to mean? Is this the evolution of watching calendar year tables, checking specific continuous timeframes to find something positive to write about?

His first season we've seen some absolutely dreadful football, eyebleeding stuff. We got 33 points in 20 games under him that would've resulted in 62 points had he gotten the full season, last time that would've sufficed for top 4 (or even "within 1 point") must've been 20 years ago. We also crashed out at home to Olympiakos in the EL.

Still I'm not holding it against him as it was a) his first job b) not "his" team (the only point in time that excuse is valid) and most importantly c) covid hit the world. Auba's heroics in the FA Cup gave him even some extra leeway.

The first half of his second season was the worst run I think I've ever seen Arsenal play in over 20 years. Complete carcrash of a season, inexcusable stuff even disregarding the pathetic semifinal loss to Villarreal later which had the club done the right thing a different manager could've avoided even.

Wondering how you arrive at a sentence like "been on or around top 4 pace bar five months" when we've seen 30+ months of the same **** and we're yet to finish in the CL spots. Abject return on investment, horrible footy etc all that aside how do you seriously write that those five months are the only thing between Arteta and top 4?

 

[Jury]

...stick with Arteta, Gabby...and greatness will be yours

Another zombie, condemned to imaginary purgatory by the AM window-lickers society, only to be granted by his maker, the freedom to stimulate 60,000 virgins at the carpet at his own leisure. What a story.

 

[Makingtrax]

Another zombie, condemned to imaginary purgatory by the AM window-lickers society, only to be granted by his maker, the freedom to stimulate 60,000 virgins at the carpet at his own leisure. What a story.

Have you a translation for normal people.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

I don't see anything i'd classify as unhinged. The any AM user could do it comment is clearly sarcasm/parody to make a point, if you take any random Joe and give him Man City money in a league were everyone else only has pennies he'll win it comfortably.

Fine! Let me show you what I classify as fair criticism vs unhinged drivel (btw this whole post is slightly tongue in cheek so don't take it too seriously...or do!)


"With this kind of backing, even a **** manager will do well, for a bit." - drivel

"Or spent 51 million on White our new backup right back while leaving our midfield in tatters with no cover. A great manager would of found away to get Auba scoring look at how many years Ferguson tolerated that raging prick Keane? Conte got Kane firing." - drivel

"Exactly. Imagine if we backed a proper manager this way, we’d probably win a PL title." - drivel

"And it's not even a **** manager at this point, any AM user could do it." - some of the dumbest **** I've ever read until I read this

"Yes, Napoleon by all accounts was a genius not only militarily and the father of global nationalism. He never understood that his nationalism for France would lead to his enemies Nationalism in Germany and dozens of other nations. Guy made stupid mistakes for years along with other major accomplishments that reflected his high iq and competence." - Man's talking about Napoleon in an Arteta thread motherf***ing Napoleon!

vs.

"Our failures were more than just Partey. Even that issue points to our weakness in depth.

But this is a new season. We now have a decent starting 11 that’ll play for the jersey and fans. Our bench is relatively poor still." - completely fair, intelligent post

"I wouldn't call it a mistake, the way the club has approached this is commendable to an extent.

I am of the firm belief that the club would have got more bang for it's buck with another manager though. I look at the team and the way they play sometimes and I really struggle to rationalise the persistence over the 3 years I really do.

To me despite the eventual improvement it makes zilch sense to me."

totally fine, reasonable even if I disagree

Hopefully you see the difference?

 

[MikelHadADream]

100%

Didnt need to add to your post, but **** it here I am doing it.

As good as we've looked at times so far, have we not done anything amazingly different to last season. You could probably make the case for us scoring more goals and taking our chances more.

Im waiting to see how we handle having to chase the game again, and having to break down teams who dont need to do anything but sit deep (Sp**s). Those will be the real tests for our boys.

You reckon? To me Zinchenko's positioning is a lot different to what we saw last season. It's really freeing Xhaka up to make more runs into the final third.

We kind of saw a bit of this last season, but I don't think KT/Nuno could really do this.

 

[Makingtrax]

Fine! Let me show you what I classify as fair criticism vs unhinged drivel (btw this whole post is slightly tongue in cheek so don't take it too seriously...or do!)


"With this kind of backing, even a **** manager will do well, for a bit." - drivel

"Or spent 51 million on White our new backup right back while leaving our midfield in tatters with no cover. A great manager would of found away to get Auba scoring look at how many years Ferguson tolerated that raging prick Keane? Conte got Kane firing." - drivel

"Exactly. Imagine if we backed a proper manager this way, we’d probably win a PL title." - drivel

"And it's not even a **** manager at this point, any AM user could do it." - some of the dumbest **** I've ever read until I read this

"Yes, Napoleon by all accounts was a genius not only militarily and the father of global nationalism. He never understood that his nationalism for France would lead to his enemies Nationalism in Germany and dozens of other nations. Guy made stupid mistakes for years along with other major accomplishments that reflected his high iq and competence." - Man's talking about Napoleon in an Arteta thread motherf***ing Napoleon!

vs.

"Our failures were more than just Partey. Even that issue points to our weakness in depth.

But this is a new season. We now have a decent starting 11 that’ll play for the jersey and fans. Our bench is relatively poor still." - completely fair, intelligent post

"I wouldn't call it a mistake, the way the club has approached this is commendable to an extent.

I am of the firm belief that the club would have got more bang for it's buck with another manager though. I look at the team and the way they play sometimes and I really struggle to rationalise the persistence over the 3 years I really do.

To me despite the eventual improvement it makes zilch sense to me."

totally fine, reasonable even if I disagree

Hopefully you see the difference?

Once you start telling people what they can and can't write on a forum you're into censorship. That happened here under Wenger and shouldn't happen again. People have a right to their opinion and if you don't agree with it, either engage with reasoning, or ignore it.

 

[jones]

Another zombie, condemned to imaginary purgatory by the AM window-lickers society, only to be granted by his maker, the freedom to stimulate 60,000 virgins at the carpet at his own leisure. What a story.

I should've drowned you in that puddle.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

Once you start telling people what they can and can't write on a forum you're into censorship. That happened here under Wenger and shouldn't happen again. People have a right to their opinion and if you don't agree with it, either engage with reasoning, or ignore it.

Please point to the part of the post where I said they aren't allowed to post these things? Equally I'm allowed to mock things I think are ****ing stupid. In fact, I encourage it - gives me a good laugh.

 

[DJ_Markstar]

You reckon? To me Zinchenko's positioning is a lot different to what we saw last season. It's really freeing Xhaka up to make more runs into the final third.

We kind of saw a bit of this last season, but I don't think KT/Nuno could really do this.

Completely agree, The Zinchenko lobbed throughball to Martinelli vs Leicester is an example of this. I don't think this is a strong suit of KT, although I think KT is probably a more competent one on one defender. Its good to have two strong options at LB.

 

[samspade]

People have a right to their opinion and if you don't agree with it, either engage with reasoning, or ignore it.

What’s wrong with ridiculing it?