3 Midfielders Is The Way Forward - The 4-4-2 Is Dead

[Anzac]

i'll just stick to what i've always said, formation never wins you anything. execution of said formation does.

4-4-2 or 4-5-1, it's just a matter of getting the most of the squad at a given moment(match).

4-4-2 will work against your group a teams, if the lines are close to each other. meaning, that the team operates as one unit. so that there always are 2-3 players near the ball, both when defending and going forward. in doing so, the extra man in midfield is rendered ineffective. the numerical superiority is nullified.

i'd say it doesn't really matter which formation wenger choses. it's not an important issue in the big scheme of things.

I agree in principle but it's also about having the right players in order to execute ANY formation, or having the right formation for your available resources.

 

[Anzac]

Well if you take a look at how we line-up in a quiet moment on the pitch you'll see a clear 4231. Dependent on who's deployed this can morph into a 433, 451 or 4411 and do so during different stages of one game. I think the biggest problem is how you accommodate a second striker. Play him in the hole and he can be too far off the centreforward and/or ineffective as an AM. Play him wide doesn't work for RvP or Eduardo IMO, though it does for Bendtner. I think we're looking at a Nasri/Arshavin behind a main striker.

OR play it with 2 strikers up front with the '2nd' striker only working back into the hole area when we don't have possession = 442/4222 in attack & 4411/4231 in defence so to speak. Having a striker play from the hole risks him dropping deeper to create a 5 man midfield.

 

[Anzac]

I'm a fan of the Barca type forward line because all 3 are looking to create AND score, as opposed to our froward line that looks to create for someone else.

Likewise as said earlier IMO the 4231 / 433 gets more out of our current resources than the 442 / 451 / 4321.

To put a final spin on things I'd ultimately prefer a 4312 / 442 diamond as IMO it not only suits the resources, but also our style = short passing & predominantly through the middle. Despite our persistance with widemen IMO we execute them as poorly as anything else we do. More often than not they are infield ahead of the ball & we look like a 222211 - our widemen do not look to get beyond the defence, not even the overlapping runs from the FBs, our width ends level with the opposition area.

 

[graham_ka]

If we're going to play with 3 CM's even if it's just against the big teams, than we need to start playing with strikers who can get behind a defense.

Anzac Eto'o can actually play off defenders while Ade and RVP can't. We have nobody that can stretch the defense while Barca have Thierry and Eto'o making runs off defenders from a variety of angles.

When was the last time Ade or RVP got behind a defense?

 

[Anzac]

If we're going to play with 3 CM's even if it's just against the big teams, than we need to start playing with strikers who can get behind a defense.

Anzac Eto'o can actually play off defenders while Ade and RVP can't. We have nobody that can stretch the defense while Barca have Thierry and Eto'o making runs off defenders from a variety of angles.

When was the last time Ade or RVP got behind a defense?

Agreed - IMO Bendtner would be better in a 3 man forward line than either RVP or Ade, even from the central role dropping into the hole, with the wide men actually playing the higher line off him. Which is why I want 3 forwards & not 2 wingers & 1 central striker.

Eto'o isn't a target man type & he's more like Torres perhaps.

 

[Captain]

Actually, VanPersie can play off of defenders when he isn't being asked to play 'the bergkamp role'. When he has played the one up or next to Ade he has shown this.

His main problem is that he can't shield a ball and his form is streaky because of the number of injuries he picks up.

 

[Anzac]

Actually, VanPersie can play off of defenders when he isn't being asked to play 'the bergkamp role'. When he has played the one up or next to Ade he has shown this.

His main problem is that he can't shield a ball and his form is streaky because of the number of injuries he picks up.

Hence my earlier reference to 2 strikers & the 2nd dropping down into the hole, as opposed to starting there & dropping into midfield.

RVP v Hull comes to mind.

 

[kel varnsen]

i'll just stick to what i've always said, formation never wins you anything. execution of said formation does.

4-4-2 or 4-5-1, it's just a matter of getting the most of the squad at a given moment(match).

That's the point though; we need to get back to having one formation which we can execute properly because right now we play a few different combinations and the players look lost sometimes.

4-3-3 gets more out of our squad currently than a 4-4-2 because it lightens Cesc's defensive load and lets Arshavin and Walcott play closer to the opposition box. It still needs tweaking but it is the way forward if we are going to persist with these players.

Interestingly, when Arshavin played upfront in the 4-4-2 he played more as an orthodox striker than a no.10.

although true, i don't think it necessarily is the right way forward:

is walcott a right winger? is he an effective right winger? i don't really think so.

adebayor is, at best, an ineffective and inconsistent lone target man. at worst, absolutely useless.

who's the attacking midfielder? nasri? van persie is a definate no go.

i could mention a few other issues, but my point is that even though 4-5-1 is probably better suited to this squad, there are still huge issues to be sorted out. as long as those issues need to be sorted out, we could go for both a 4-4-2 or a 4-5-1 in the future. it depends on what adjustments and changes are made.

i for instance would love to see van persie and adebayor go. sign a new right midfielder and let walcott play up front.

 

[Captain]

That's the point though; we need to get back to having one formation which we can execute properly because right now we play a few different combinations and the players look lost sometimes.

4-3-3 gets more out of our squad currently than a 4-4-2 because it lightens Cesc's defensive load and lets Arshavin and Walcott play closer to the opposition box. It still needs tweaking but it is the way forward if we are going to persist with these players.

Interestingly, when Arshavin played upfront in the 4-4-2 he played more as an orthodox striker than a no.10.

although true, i don't think it necessarily is the right way forward:

is walcott a right winger? is he an effective right winger? i don't really think so.

I think he can be an effective right sided forward. He gets in behind defenders on and off of the ball, is learning to go inside as well as out, his passing isn't to bad, can be deadly from the byline and we know that he can finish from there.

adebayor is, at best, an ineffective and inconsistent lone target man. at worst, absolutely useless.

True, I don't think the formation works with Ade as the point.

who's the attacking midfielder? nasri? van persie is a definate no go.

Nasri/Cesc. Either/or. Sometimes we could play with one, sometimes two; sometimes neither if the game warranted it.

i could mention a few other issues, but my point is that even though 4-5-1 is probably better suited to this squad, there are still huge issues to be sorted out. as long as those issues need to be sorted out, we could go for both a 4-4-2 or a 4-5-1 in the future. it depends on what adjustments and changes are made.

That's it though; in europe we have been playing a lopsided 4-5-1. In the league with Arshavin it is more a 4-3-3 with three strikers. I think it has looked our best set-up all season.

I threw up a squad analysis type thing in one of the other threads but may as well move it here as it seems more prominent:

The way that I see it and I have to emphasise that I believe we have played 4-3-3 recently (three strikers rather than one):

Goalies: Almunia, Fabianski
CB's: Gallas, Touré, Djourou Silvestre
Fullbacks: Sagna, Clichy, Eboue, Gibbs
CM's: Cesc, Nasri, Song, Denilson, Diaby, Rosicky
Wide forwards: Walcott, Arshavin, Bendtner, VanPersie, Vela
Point man: Adebayor, Eduardo, Vela, Bendtner

I've included Bendtner and Vela in two categories but everyone else I think is more or less where they should be.

If we maintained that squad and actually played 4-3-3 every game, I think that looks like a good squad, not excellent, just good.

You could re-arrange the players into a 4-4-2 but I have come to think that the problem in that formation and the way that we play it is actually Cesc rather than anyone else and I don't think he is going to be dropped any time soon.

 

[truth_hurts]

Like some have said it wasn't the formation which has cost us this season its a lack of ideas and as sad as it sounds - a lack of quality. As has been said its not the foraton thats important its the inteligence of the players in it and the fluidity of the system. Liverpool arguably play a 4-4-2 with gerrard in the hole behind the striker and Kuyt and Riera operating as wingers, which can change to 4-2-3-1 when attacking. If we play a dynamic player like Arshavin or even nasri behind the striker then we can swith between 4-4-2 and 4-2-3-1. But if we play RVP or Eduardothere its essentially a 4-4-2. Last season we essentially played a 4-4-2 ad we played some of our best football for years and 'should' have won the title. It unfair to say we would have suceeded with a 4-4-2.

The only player we have who could play the wide position in a 4-3-3 efffectively is Arshavin. A player in this role needs directness, abillity on the ball and speed (either in the form of pace or speed of thought). we would need a complete squad overhual as what would we do with Ade, RVP, Eduardo, Nik and Vela - all of whom are better operating from an inside position?

4-4-2 is not dead we just need to NOT play inflexble players such as Denilson, Diaby, theo, RVP, Cesc, Nik,eduardo and Nasri in flexible positions!!! and only utilise the likes of Arshavin, Rosicky and Ramsey inthe flexible roles.

 

[Webdesignlab]

Webdesign, why is this 4 4 2 talk redundant? Barca themselves line up with a 4 3 3 on most nights; plus the quality of their players is sufficient to overcome most types of teams regardless of formation. Barca would absorb Clichy and Gallas into their starting 11, and nobody else. We have to rely a lot on team-work and coordination to overcome our quality disabilities.

I was drunk when I wrote that and feeling very anti Chelsea.

I meant that attacking football will be back on the agenda. In whatever formation.

 

[Anzac]

Comparing Barca's midifeld to our possible options, are Iniesta & Xavi any more offensive than Cesc/Nasri/Rosicky, and are they any more defensive? Point being are they more of one thing or the other, or is it the QUALITY that makes them more effective?

As the last piece to the puzzle - does Yaya or whom ever else the 3rd players is, play as a CMd holding in midfield, or as a DM in the hole = is it a flat 3 / triangle with only 1 going forward / inverted with 2 going forward?

 

[Anzac]

Looking at Barca's attack - TH, Eto'o & Messi = a central striker & 2 FCs/ wing forwards???? Or perhaps 1 striker, 1 FC & 1 AM. Certainly more attacking goal threat than 2 AMs/wingers out wide, and Eto'o is certainly not a target man type lone striker.

Next question is where they play positionally - flat 3 centrally / lone central striker with 2 coming in off the flanks at the same level, or is it like a 4321 with the wide men playing from the AM line?

The only reason I ask these question & use Barca as the example, is because with all this talk re 433 etc IMO we should be specific about WHAT, before we consider WHO, let alone IF it is practical for the majority of OUR squad as it stands NOW.

 

[thegame24]

How would we line up if we got tevez?

I have this sneaky feeling.

 

[AnthonyG]

Sneaky feeling as in we will go after Tevez?

 

[thegame24]

yeap.

we wanted him in 2007

we got linked to him again at christmas (as we did wit harsh which turned out true)

His owner has a box at emirates

we need his tenacity, especially if ade ****s off

he wants to leave united and stay in prem (london probably)

It would stick it to united and give the players a massive boost

and finally we should have the money and should make a friendly deal since his owner has a box at our ground.

 

[Shadow Moses]

He's not coming here. Arsenal was one of the first clubs he was offered to before he went to West Ham but Arsène refused to pay the asking price. Unless Arsène pays £28m or Kia lowers his price, he will be playing in Spain next season.

 

[32inchVerticalLeap]

Id take Tevez, could do with someone who runs their socks off, might kick some life into the rest of the players.

 

[thegame24]

hes confirmed he wants to stay england and play for one of unites rivals

 

[Captain]

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