4-2-3-1

[Nela]

Yeah, but Hleb for all his talents is no Bergkamp. He's very much a midfielder.

Don't get me started. I never understood playing a guy who's afraid to shoot in the hole.

The formational difference isn't that position. Its where Nik and Eboue played tonight, they were as advanced as Nasri. When Hleb played there last season the wingers were more in line with Fabregas generally. And Hleb dropped very deep at times, TBH that was more just a 4-5-1. And yeah this is sort of splitting hairs in terms of the names of the systems but tonight we played tactically differently to those games and I just think 4-2-3-1 is an easy short hand for it.

True. But we definetely played it away to Fenerbahce this season. It allows us to use Theo much more effectively. He can make more runs and cause a lot of problems for the opposition.

 

[qs]

2 defensive minded box-to-box midfielders was the exact term I used, when I initially brought forward the change in formation. That is exactly how both Denilson and Diaby played tonight.

Diaby isn't exactly defensively minded.

Regarding your question, I doubt it. There was no real indication of a CM change. The only difference between today and the 3 0-0's, is that Roma allowed us to play our game, rather than try stifling us. This inevitably enabled both Diaby and Denilson, to foray further forward, and look far better. I will bet £500, that neither will look as impressive on the weekend.

After Saturdays game the idea that everyones trying to stifle us has come back a bit on here but in general teams have been more open against us this season than in the last few years. Not that many teams fear us any more and it shows when they come to the Emirates.

And its easy to say Diaby and Denilson wont look as good at the weekend. They looked as good as they have done. Its games like this though where players step it up. Like the AC game last season, neither Fab, Hleb nor Flamini looked that good for weeks after it.

 

[outlaw_member]

Diaby is definitely a defensive minded box-to-box midfielder.

Yeah, it was great to see both step up in such a big game.

 

[SamGooner]

What about:

----Fab---Diaby/Denil---
------------------------
-Theo/Ros--Arsh---Nasri-
---------Rvp/Edu--------

 

[otfgoon]

Seriously though, I think this was more borne more out of necessity than anything else. It suited the players who played, and they executed it well. I expect we may see it in Europe a bit more frequently but it's not one I expect to see in the league

To be fair, we did see it in the Sunderland game just before Arshavin was dragged off with him going in the middle and Robin moving to the right.

 

[nazo]

I don't mind if we go with this formation in Europe but in the epl we need 2 up front because i don't think Robin/anyone else can do it all alone up front in the epl.

 

[qs]

I've been thinking about that since the match Naz and its usually the kind of thing I say myself but I was impressed with the amount of support Robin got tonight. If the 3 behind the striker aren't pushed back then the support should be enough to stop the striker becoming isolated the way we often see when we play a 5 man midfield. Think of how often Eboue and Bendtner were up in support and the chances they had, now imagine good players like Arshavin, Walcott and Rosicky in their places.

Of course we'd need to see how it played out against Premiership teams and when teams are ready for it, no doubt it surprised Roma tonight. Still though its probably the best passing I've seen from us all season, the players looked confident playing it and lately we really look like we're in need of a change.

 

[Anzac]

*sees no Anzac post*

*sees no Hackajack post*



*scratches head*





Seriously though, I think this was more borne more out of necessity than anything else. It suited the players who played, and they executed it well. I expect we may see it in Europe a bit more frequently but it's not one I expect to see in the league, unless it's in the next two games and Van Persie is rested.

One of the most puzzling things about it for me is that I wouldn't necessarily expect it to complement the styles of Eduardo, Walcott, Fabregas etc, but when I think of who played in their respective positions tonight I'm not so sure. I mean, if Eboue can play there, at least competently, I don't see why Walcott/Eduardo can't. It certainly wouldn't be down to lack of technique anyway.

LOL - I've only just got here mate............where's Hacka??????

 

[Unforgiven]

I think this is a good formation for the CL, but in the PL I do not see it working especially with the only striker upfront. I am not sure if it offers as much width and defensive stability in the wide areas. I would like to see it played again though because it did work yesterday.

 

[Anzac]

OK - I'd hazard a guess that AW tried to implement this when he swapped Bendtner & Nasri in the PL a while back, and the difference has been Nasri in the hole and RVP's movement up front. Previously we've been trying with Ade up front & RVP in the hole, and Ade has been going wide to the flanks which has stifled the wide play, and RVP has been dropping too deep like we saw v Sunderland.

The other difference was that V Sunderland our CMs played more like DMs, whereas by the sounds of it tonight they played more from the midfield as opposed to being deeper.

H*ll thinking about it I'd say we saw an early version of this A v Sunderland when Cesc played ahead of Song & Denilson.

 

[Anzac]

Yeah, but Hleb for all his talents is no Bergkamp. He's very much a midfielder.

Don't get me started. I never understood playing a guy who's afraid to shoot in the hole.

The formational difference isn't that position. Its where Nik and Eboue played tonight, they were as advanced as Nasri. When Hleb played there last season the wingers were more in line with Fabregas generally. And Hleb dropped very deep at times, TBH that was more just a 4-5-1. And yeah this is sort of splitting hairs in terms of the names of the systems but tonight we played tactically differently to those games and I just think 4-2-3-1 is an easy short hand for it.

Agreed re Hleb, and we had Diaby & Eboue on the flanks as MR/L in a 4411/451.

 

[Anzac]

I think this is a good formation for the CL, but in the PL I do not see it working especially with the only striker upfront. I am not sure if it offers as much width and defensive stability in the wide areas. I would like to see it played again though because it did work yesterday.

IMO it would work well in the PL but it must have the right players in the right roles.

Sure it leaves more room on the flanks, but you don't push the FBs forward as much which in turn means they have the attackers in front of them. Likewise with the CMs sitting that bit deeper means they are better able to provide cover to the flanks - again the play is in front of them.

For me it's very mush a situation of horses for courses, both in how you execute the formation & players to be utilised. If you want crosses into the box then I'd play AMR/L on the flanks & a 2nd striker in the hole with Ade/Bendtner on the pitch to provide the threat in the air.

If you want to play thru' the middle & keep the ball on the ground then play Nasri as AMC, and bring the wide men in close to AMFC/LC to provide short passing & movement. I'd play Eduardo up front & AA/RVP either side of Nasri, with the 2 outer AMs going forward as deep lying forwards in a 3 man forward line looking to score, rather than as trying to supply a lone striker. The narrow attack threatens any space between the FBs & CBs so the opposition back 4 need to stay tight, this then gives our FBs more room down the flanks. If they time it right they can either get a clean overlap, or draw the FB for a run off the ball from the AM/FC. If the CMs play as CMs then they can support the FB run for the cut back.

One thing vital to make this work v deep defences is to transition the ball out of defence & to the AMC QUICKLY. This means that your attack is controling the ball from the hole before their defence can re-set. Then you need your attackers to make runs off the ball in & around the area. The idea would be to emulate the movement we saw in the final 3rd leading to the winner v ManU.


Now if you'll excuse me I've got a date with FM on my laptop............. :wink:

 

[hackajack]

Well at the risk of being tedious (yeah, yeah) I reckon we've been playing a 4231 for at least two years. People notice it more when we put a midfielder rather than a second striker in the hole or play a striker wider (and it plays out differently) but it looks like the same basic shape to me - narrower 'wingers' and deeper CMs than the old 4411

 

[banduan]

Eh. It's another name for 4-3-3, some of yous have been clamouring for that for years.

 

[hackajack]

No, it's different. there's a good article here for anyone who's interested : <a class="postlink" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2008/dec/18/4231-442-tactics-jonathan-wilson" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog ... han-wilson</a>

 

[clockwork orange]

Want 4-2-3-1 for ages. Not surprised we looked better last night. Diaby & Denislon looked good because it easier for them. Nasri playing centrally means more midfield play (in stead of RVP playing off the striker).

Think 4-2-3-1 benefits our squad in 2 ways: it's easier for the DMFs & our attacking players can play more positions, so we can for example play Eduardo more often

 

[the dawn raids]

I don't mind if we go with this formation in Europe but in the epl we need 2 up front because i don't think Robin/anyone else can do it all alone up front in the epl.

with a lot of forward combinations (van persie/bendtner for example) this is invalid though, because so many of our strikers play so deep anyway. its difficult enough to see one of them in the box consistently let alone both of them. the freedom this system can provide is almost a necessity for us especially in the league at this point, where we are basically dependant on individual moments of brilliance to score, ie, van persie at goodison. we need the spontanaiety that freedom can create to move the ball forward with pace and urgency to open up teams to be more vulnerable to those moments of said brilliance.

a little more defensive discipline may be required in the league to prevent mismatches in counters, but personally i think its just as much a necessity in the league at this point as it is in europe. if our distibution can consistently look even close to the level it was at last night then we need to continue deploying it no matter who we play.

 

[Anzac]

No, it's different. there's a good article here for anyone who's interested : <a class="postlink" href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2008/dec/18/4231-442-tactics-jonathan-wilson" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog ... han-wilson</a>

a good read - interesting to see they think we play 4411 - more so than ManU, although I suppose that SAF has been more flexible with his forward line combos & roles these past 2 seasons, whereas during the same period we build our attack around Ade & a creative player in the hole (although I think this was mainly due to neccessity rather than design).

 

[Anzac]

My preference is for us to utilise a narrow attack as I described above, with Eduardo as the lead striker. IMO this allows us to be totally fluid in the position & roles of the 3 primary attackers, as all have good ball skills, creativity, flair & above all are goal scorers. In principle this is what SAF has done with ManU's attack this season.

If we execute with pace & movement we are going back to the core strengths of the players, and IMO we have the opportunity to emulate the sort of devastation last seen with DB10 as playmaker in the hole.

As this squad stands my 1st choice line up would be:

Eduardo
RVP Nasri AA
Cesc Diaby
Clichy Gallas Toure Sagna

RVP & AA would push forward to target the channels between the FB & CB, but also have the freedom to go out wide & must do so in defence to pressure the opposition FBs.
Nasri can act as a lynch pin / attacking pivot - he'd hold his position so as to allow Cesc to overlap in attack.
Cesc & Diaby would operate as CMs NOT DMs, but would not look to push up - Cesc would be a deep lying playmaker but can overlap Nasri.
The FBs would operate level with the CMs & we can afford to have our short & quick CBs together because they are not so exposed.

If we did get stretched in a counter then the idea would be for someone to conceed a free kick before the ball got past the centre circle - CFC are masters at this.

 

[HollandGooner]

My preference is for us to utilise a narrow attack as I described above, with Eduardo as the lead striker. IMO this allows us to be totally fluid in the position & roles of the 3 primary attackers, as all have good ball skills, creativity, flair & above all are goal scorers. In principle this is what SAF has done with ManU's attack this season.

If we execute with pace & movement we are going back to the core strengths of the players, and IMO we have the opportunity to emulate the sort of devastation last seen with DB10 as playmaker in the hole.

As this squad stands my 1st choice line up would be:

Eduardo
RVP Nasri AA
Cesc Diaby
Clichy Gallas Touré Sagna

RVP & AA would push forward to target the channels between the FB & CB, but also have the freedom to go out wide & must do so in defence to pressure the opposition FBs.
Nasri can act as a lynch pin / attacking pivot - he'd hold his position so as to allow Cesc to overlap in attack.
Cesc & Diaby would operate as CMs NOT DMs, but would not look to push up - Cesc would be a deep lying playmaker but can overlap Nasri.
The FBs would operate level with the CMs & we can afford to have our short & quick CBs together because they are not so exposed.

If we did get stretched in a counter then the idea would be for someone to conceed a free kick before the ball got past the centre circle - CFC are masters at this.

I like your formation, its sounds very right