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"Are you too intelligent to be a football manager?"
- Thread starter True Gooner
- Start date
- Replies 132
- Views 7,411
alboots101
Established Member
yes you are....
wellington
Well-Known Member
Wenger is. But he hides it well.
yuvken
Established Member
Critical can be positive even according to the "human" approach. If results are indeed served, that is important (no "human" approach is plausible if it cannot accommodate results properly).
The question is about optimal: what is the optimal level of criticism re each game and player performance?
Thinking "the higher the better" is not realistic, and thus not optimal. That is the other side of the equation: realistic includes human - what can realistically (yes, you can use "pragmatically" instead) be expected of the players in a given game; then apply the proper criticism level. that's how the balance "result vs human" should be struck.
The question is about optimal: what is the optimal level of criticism re each game and player performance?
Thinking "the higher the better" is not realistic, and thus not optimal. That is the other side of the equation: realistic includes human - what can realistically (yes, you can use "pragmatically" instead) be expected of the players in a given game; then apply the proper criticism level. that's how the balance "result vs human" should be struck.
alboots101
Established Member
Anzac said:alboots101 said:yes you are....
I know I am but you think the rest are?
I cant say but what I do know is that AW changed my outlook and as close minded as it is..one game at a time is the only way I can see it now..I struggle to analyse a footy match because I am way too emotionally involved..from 1st to 96th..I`m up and down like the Assyrian empire..I shout, scream, jump up and down..good or bad.
perhaps the summer allows me to view the "whole" thing..till then..
one game at a time.
On a side note...the performances dont mean anything compared with the result not that I dont enjoy fast paced smart football, it just becomes irrelevent to me.
wellington
Well-Known Member
That's right. I like the trickery, sizzle and glitz when we're 4-0 up. But not before.
Assyrian empire? Nice.
Assyrian empire? Nice.
alboots101
Established Member
we must thank Eric Idle for that one..
Captain
Established Member
Biggus said:
Me too Biggus, me too...
alboots101 said:Anzac said:alboots101 said:yes you are....
I cant say but what I do know is that AW changed my outlook and as close minded as it is..one game at a time is the only way I can see it now..I struggle to analyse a footy match because I am way too emotionally involved..from 1st to 96th..I`m up and down like the Assyrian empire..I shout, scream, jump up and down..good or bad.
perhaps the summer allows me to view the "whole" thing..till then..
one game at a time.
On a side note...the performances dont mean anything compared with the result not that I dont enjoy fast paced smart football, it just becomes irrelevent to me.
During the game I rarely make any attempt to analyse the action = half time & post match for me.
alboots101
Established Member
well see...I`m ratted by then...
Y va marquer
Established Member
I won’t argue that winning is not the objective (not that dippy.....well maybe soemtimes)
Ruthless efficiency resulting in consistent victories would obviously serve this purpose......but if the machine just churns out results, if the result is all that matters
where’s the happiness in actually watching the whole game?
Could it be that the excitement of winning is short lived if a match is just another job done on the relentless march to a title.
I’m sure it’d be gratifying, satisfying for us to win like this but would the feelings endure if the journey itself hasn’t been marked by moments of pain, genius and inspiration? (And we’ve had plenty of those).
Maybe the ultimate victory is the one where you vanquish your opponent with touches of genius and flair?
Win both the game and the minds leaving no room for debate as to who deserved the victory.
If you have the means to aim for the ultimate victory why not do so?
Why be restricted by the fear of losing?
Having said all of that at this stage of the season I don’t care how we win on Saturday as long as we do BUT I’m guessing that AW is not for turning, the team will play as they always do. Plenty of goals I hope but possibly not a clean sheet
Ruthless efficiency resulting in consistent victories would obviously serve this purpose......but if the machine just churns out results, if the result is all that matters
where’s the happiness in actually watching the whole game?
Could it be that the excitement of winning is short lived if a match is just another job done on the relentless march to a title.
I’m sure it’d be gratifying, satisfying for us to win like this but would the feelings endure if the journey itself hasn’t been marked by moments of pain, genius and inspiration? (And we’ve had plenty of those).
Maybe the ultimate victory is the one where you vanquish your opponent with touches of genius and flair?
Win both the game and the minds leaving no room for debate as to who deserved the victory.
If you have the means to aim for the ultimate victory why not do so?
Why be restricted by the fear of losing?
Having said all of that at this stage of the season I don’t care how we win on Saturday as long as we do BUT I’m guessing that AW is not for turning, the team will play as they always do. Plenty of goals I hope but possibly not a clean sheet
Biggus
Established Member
People who say that so called artistic football is more important than pragmatic winning football are just being disingenuous and mischievous, they don't really subscribe to this idea they're simply making the best of a bad situation, we can't be the best at winning, so we may as well be the best at something else.
If you offered them a title now playing a pragmatic style they'd snatch your hand off.
Those that wouldn't aren't real Arsenal fans but more general football ones.
If you offered them a title now playing a pragmatic style they'd snatch your hand off.
Those that wouldn't aren't real Arsenal fans but more general football ones.
alboots101
Established Member
like the 0-0 final.
added for emphasis.
added for emphasis.
yuvken
Established Member
False dichotomy; just pretending the issue is either or, to make it easy.
There are those who accept the pragmatic, and the importance (priority, perhaps) of results - but do not pretend it is a one value game (or world).
And, the point about the extreme result preferring approach was made earlier. repeating it doesn't hammer it home. It just keeps making banging sounds.
Anyway - we will now have Barca and Arsenal: both "beautiful", so it cancels itself as a factor:
now only the result matters! :wink:
There are those who accept the pragmatic, and the importance (priority, perhaps) of results - but do not pretend it is a one value game (or world).
And, the point about the extreme result preferring approach was made earlier. repeating it doesn't hammer it home. It just keeps making banging sounds.
Anyway - we will now have Barca and Arsenal: both "beautiful", so it cancels itself as a factor:
now only the result matters! :wink:
Y va marquer
Established Member
Biggus
“People who say that so called artistic football is more important than pragmatic winning football are just being disingenuous and mischievous”,
How exactly do you know this?.
If you’re referring to me I didn’t say it was more important to play “artistic football” I said if you have the means to at your disposal you should aim to play with style and flair.
True I’d be happy with a title playing what you refer to as the “pragmatic style” but I’ve also had the experience of watching the ROI play for years….
The pragmatic approach adopted by various managers brought us relative success (unprecedented for us actually) but we never actually enjoyed watching the way they played!! We supported them, went to the matches, lived up the wins and drank a lot – it was brilliant but it was about the event, the victory and not the football.
And that "who's a real Arsenal fan and who's not" business is a bit odd....
“People who say that so called artistic football is more important than pragmatic winning football are just being disingenuous and mischievous”,
How exactly do you know this?.
If you’re referring to me I didn’t say it was more important to play “artistic football” I said if you have the means to at your disposal you should aim to play with style and flair.
True I’d be happy with a title playing what you refer to as the “pragmatic style” but I’ve also had the experience of watching the ROI play for years….
The pragmatic approach adopted by various managers brought us relative success (unprecedented for us actually) but we never actually enjoyed watching the way they played!! We supported them, went to the matches, lived up the wins and drank a lot – it was brilliant but it was about the event, the victory and not the football.
And that "who's a real Arsenal fan and who's not" business is a bit odd....
Klaus Daimler
Established Member
No one's said that. People have argued that artistic winning football is better than pragmatic winning football though.Biggus said:
Timleaf
Established Member
Biggus said:
Quality defensive football, understanding angles, reading the game etc, can be artistic at times too.
Timleaf
Established Member
Biggus said:
I agree, I just happen to experience more of these 'transcendent' moments than you when I watch or play sport. Zidane, for instance, would regularly produce moments of highly complex geometry, grace and urbane technique, coupled with the spectacle of modern football, flashbulbs, noise, colours. I really dont think that life can get any more lucid, especially when you're there to witness it in person.
Biggus
Established Member
I'm not pointing the finger at you Y va, It's obvious that most of the people here are Arsenal supporters first football supporters second and desperately want to see us win something, we just quibble over how it would best be achieved.Y va marquer said:
Some have said it Klaus, as I say: the most beautiful thing in football is seeing your team put the ball in the oppositions net and it really doesn't matter how.Klaus Daimler said:
This has been corrupted and misunderstood to I would like us to be some sort of SuperStoke.
Very much so I totally agree.Timleaf said:
My preferred style is a defence based counter attacking fast tempo more direct one, in other words how we used to play.
I've seen Zidane play and what made him truly brilliant was his power and aggression married to his technique.
Back on topic, I think Wenger is too intelligent to be a football manager, football is a simple game of instinct you don't need to be a certain size or have a perfect surface- therein lies its global attraction.
