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Arsenal's True Spending Position: There is no top 6

Discussion in 'Arsenal Talk' started by Makingtrax, Oct 20, 2020.

  1. Manberg

    Manberg Predator

    Says who? Their squad's filled with foreign players. Successful signings that cost less than our signings. If we made those signings we'd be paying more or less the same as they did.

    Gnabry was an Arsenal player. Another Wenger mistake. We can poach young German talent if we wanted to.
     
  2. bingobob

    bingobob Fan of Technicians Who Show Great Character Trusted

    Its not rocket science. That spending period you are looking at has a set start and end date.

    We have two clubs. Club A and B. We start from 1st August 2018 to now. Club A and B both have 250m to spend. Both clubs have an established squad acquired prior to the 1st August 2018.


    Club A sells 10 players for an average of 25m and reinvests that 250m in full and spends the 250m they have. Team B maintains its squad but still spends the 250m at its disposal. On paper squad A is more expensive over that period but that's only possible because they made a decision to sell players. Net spend is equal over the same period.

    Its too simplistic to boil down to cost. How was that cost made up, why did another team not cost more, why is that squad massively bigger than others, how many players has that team lost and not generated money on the back of that player. Has the players they acquired been good. Have they a different model? Have they a good coach? Academy, training facilities, medical and science department.
     
    Trilly likes this.
  3. Makingtrax

    Makingtrax Arséne Wenger once said "I will miss you"

    Mate there is no spend period. It's just the price of each squad of players, whenever they were bought, some might be as long ago as 8 years.

    And sorry bro, I don't follow your example. What were the relative costs of the two squads prior to 2018? Why 2018? If team B keeps it's squad what does it spend the £250m on? And what's net spend got to do with it. Your making some very simple data into a PhD thesis.:lol:
     
  4. Makingtrax

    Makingtrax Arséne Wenger once said "I will miss you"

    It's clear you don't want to look at our relative spending compared to our rivals and what it means for Arteta in the league. You just want to harp on about the Bundesliga so you can finally bring up Gnabry to smash Wenger over the head again. Your hate is making you unwell bro. :lol:
     
  5. HairSprayGooners

    HairSprayGooners Al Jazeera Correspondent

    The biggest fact people should look at is we have spent £700M since we signed Özil and been out of the CL for half of that period spending the most in the latter stages.

    Basically money isn't everything.
     
    bingobob likes this.
  6. Makingtrax

    Makingtrax Arséne Wenger once said "I will miss you"

    What we spent on the team is there for you to see, like it is every year.

    And how much Arsenal spent is totally irrelevant unless you look what others have spent.

    Like Arteta, Wenger and Emery were also 5th on the scale. If you think money's not important why have so few managers spending 5th or below won the league or even competed in the CL?
     
  7. DasBootist

    DasBootist Well-Known Member

    Feels like I have gone back in time..

    wtf
     
    James Bond and Macho like this.
  8. RacingPhoton

    RacingPhoton Well-Known Member

    Who are you trying to judge with these stats? If you want to compare a managers' on-field tactics alone, squad cost is a good metric. If you want to judge a club's overall performance (including transfers, scouting and player management), net spend is the right metric.
     
  9. Manberg

    Manberg Predator

    You have me mistaken, I used to be one of the biggest Wenger stans. I’ve come to acknowledge his tenure post 2006 as a failure.
     
  10. Makingtrax

    Makingtrax Arséne Wenger once said "I will miss you"

    A club like Liverpool who makes a profit on players can improve their squad cost and keep net spending quite low. Another team could sell players at a loss and have to by cheaper players to replace them, lowering their squad cost. But both teams could easily have the same net spend. Net spend in any one year tells you very little.
     
  11. Makingtrax

    Makingtrax Arséne Wenger once said "I will miss you"

    This isn't the Wenger thread and it's not my fault that you think a manager of a team spending in the bottom half of the table post 2005 should be better than top 4. You're just mistaken.
     
  12. Kav

    Kav Well-Known Member

    Ignoring the obvious aren't you? We didn't start spending any significant sums until 2013/14. Clearly that Decade of emptiness was the result of our stadium move. The period after 2014-18 we won a few cups and came second. That tells a different story to what you are suggesting.

    Just for the record we are still servicing some debts related to the stadium move today. It was a significant reason why we were so second rate in our acquisitions. We just did not have the funds to compete with Chelsea, Man U, City and Later Liverpool.
     
  13. Manberg

    Manberg Predator

    Why do you think everything is about squad cost? We had one of the best team in the league. Partly because the league wasn’t as competitive as it is now. In that time we should have seen far more success. Teams that have spent less than us have achieved more. Leicester won the league. In 2011 for example, our squad was much better than Utd’s. Finishing fourth with no trophies that year was unforgivable.

    To add, if you go season by season, you will consistently find clubs with a lower squad cost than us finishing in higher positions in the league, since about 2010.
     
  14. RacingPhoton

    RacingPhoton Well-Known Member

    Selling a player at a loss/profit boils down to club's good player management. If you identify that a player will not work out for you much earlier, you can sell them at a higher price. Instead if you keep them at the squad letting them run down their contract like how we did with numerous players in the past 5 years, we will obviously lose money. Better scouting also lets us make more money out of players. With the money they made, Liverpool actually bought players who strengthened the side - Van Dijk and Allison both playing crucial roles in their title wins. There is definitely something that Liverpool does better than Arsenal and Manchester United in this area. That's why I am saying that net spend is a good metric to measure the club's overall performance. Good performance with lower net spend shows good scouting, good player management and contract handling and also good transfer negotiations.
     
    bingobob likes this.
  15. bingobob

    bingobob Fan of Technicians Who Show Great Character Trusted

    Simple data :lol:

    That's exactly what you're doing with your squad cost position. You do realise that? Squad cost is about as simple as it gets. It's basic maths that's taught in primary school. Here are 5 sets of numbers, add them all up and rank them in order highest to lowest. And from there you draw wild conclusions without appreciating the nuances of football.

    I used a very basic set to make it simple to understand. Shift the date back 50 years the premise still holds. If I have £250 cash plus assets that I sell and I reinvest cash on hand plus sales I will spend more overall than the person who retains their assets and only spends their cash. Eventually that person will run out of cash unless they liquidate their assets.

    Alan Sugar had a great challenge on the Apprentice where he always used the term smell what's selling. Done right you grow your cash whilst selling your stock for profit.

    So let's go back to day dot. And both teams have spent 500 and 500m respectfully assembling their squads. This has been recorded by CEIS on their data for 2018. They are reviewing their data for 2019. Team B sells players that came through their ranks or cost a nominal fee for a total of 100m the original cost was 20m. They've banked 80m profit. They invest that 100 plus 250m increasing their squad cost by 330m bringing the CEIS total to 830m.The other team fail to offload other players and just spend 250m. Their squad cost improves to 750m.

    Figures without context or meaning mean very little. If you showed that list to someone and said look here is what clubs have spent and thats the most important aspect which team do you think is considered the best team in Europe. I bet you nobody would point to Bayern Munich. Thankfully football isn't played on a spreadsheet.
     
    RacingPhoton likes this.
  16. Makingtrax

    Makingtrax Arséne Wenger once said "I will miss you"

    Our squad was much better than United's? Jesus, I thought this was going to be a sensible thread about our position in the league, but it's just attracted the wrong posters who want to keep making up stories about Wenger.
     
  17. Makingtrax

    Makingtrax Arséne Wenger once said "I will miss you"

    There's no wild conclusions here mate. Look at the EPL winners over the years United 13, City 4, Chelsea 5 wins. Do you think they did this because of nuances in football? Give me a break.
     
  18. bingobob

    bingobob Fan of Technicians Who Show Great Character Trusted

    Actually yes I do.

    You're being selective. And that's fine but it completely undermines what you're trying to say.
     
  19. RacingPhoton

    RacingPhoton Well-Known Member

    @Makingtrax I don't understand how you can ignore money made from players as though it's nothing or it is fluke. Forget scouting to find good players and making money out of them. We even messed up with selling established players. Liverpool sold Coutinho to Barcelona for 150M while we sold Van Persie to a title rival for 24M. That was the time when we were just walking into any negotiation room with our pants down. Any other club would have made at least double that amount.
    We were so bad in these matters that Koscielny thought he could just move to another club for free when he still had one year in his contract. Even worse, some fans thought he was right. That's the kind of expectations we set on contract management in the last decade.
     
  20. Makingtrax

    Makingtrax Arséne Wenger once said "I will miss you"

    How is that selective, they've won most of the EPL years outspending other teams by a factor of 10. Throw in the outliers, Leicester 1 year, Blackburn 1, Arsenal 3, Liverpool 1 and your back to the start of the EPL and that's the entire EPL history.

    Anyway I didn't post that list to argue about money increasing your odds of winning, that's a fact. I thought people might want to discus the rise of Everton and Leicester and the new top 8. But still its the same old denying the obvious and Wenger hate. SMH
     

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