Ashley Cole (Out)

[_scorpion_]

The swap won't happen.

If Cole goes it wll be for cash now that he has an 8 million pound buy out clause in his new contract.

Furthermore, I'm starting to think Baptista is not the type of player we'd want at Arsenal. He has looked nothing short of Lazy every time he's played.

Invest in a hard working all action CM and a striker that can play very high up on the pitch.

 

[hleb]

Furthermore, I'm starting to think Baptista is not the type of player we'd want at Arsenal. He has looked nothing short of Lazy every time he's played.


Is it possible that is heart & mind is not in it? I think the passport thing was a major reason for him to stay. Sevilla were out of the equation as soon as he didnt intend to extend his contract. Madrid were the only option.

 

[Gurgen]

Let's not confuse 'should' and 'would' in the same argument.

Arsène Wenger 'should' personally drop Ashley Cole off at the nearest bus-stop to Madrid, and 'should' invest that money and more in the team.

As far as I'm concerned, the sooner Ashley goes the better, regardless of whether or not we get any money for him at all. In fact, if he went to Madrid and they sent us the bill for his airfair I'd still be happy that he was gone, just a little bemused by our lack of business acumen. But that part's just a moral point associated with my feelings towards the player. I vaguely understand people that feel differently to me about that, but there's nothing I can do to force anyone to share my oppinion, so I'll just let it lie.

If we didn't get a suitable footballing return for selling him, I guess I can see why people would be pissed off. I can see why people wouldn't want him to go. He's good, no doubt, and I'm slightly distrusting of Wenger to spend any money he gets properly. But that doesn't change the fact that I hate Cole's guts, and feel that every time he pulls on an Arsenal shirt is a slap in the face to every fan that genuinely cares about the club and the game. So I want him gone, no matter what. Sod the football. If Wenger doesn't spend the cash properly, that's his own fault, but it doesn't mean I want to see a dishonest, backstabbing un-remorseful prick like Cole get paid huge sums of money to do a job that many would do for 1% of his salary. I don't even want him associated with Arsenal any more in any way. Heck, if I had my way, his name would be stricken out of the Arsenal history books. But hey, that's just how I feel.

Amen!

And things are only going to get worse with that bird of his around.

 

[Mr. Hotshot]

Screw Baptista. He screwed us in the summer and wasted our time until we didnt have enough time to look at other players. He was playing with us all along dont you see it? He used us as bait so that he could go to Madrid. Even when AW approached him he said AW was setting up an illegal meeting and loads of other BS!

Just leave him. If Cole wants to go to Madrid fine but Baptista can just stay where he's at. Dont think you can screw a club in the summer and come to the club next season when they have a new stadium. Buy players who really wants to play with Arsenal.

 

[hesham]

This by-out clause is HorseShit the Daily Mirror is full of crap...
Our Club cant be that ****ing stuiped to agree to a contract like that

 

[BannedKwame]

It's a bit disturbing that people actually believe that the management at Real Madrid would accept an even swap of Cole for Baptista, or Cole for Baptista and money! That is so bloody incredulous it makes me contemptuous. Madrid might be foolish in terms of overloading on offensive talent, but one skill they have demonstrated time and time again is to always come on top in almost every transfer dealing they make-- moneywise.

That is, they buy Anelka for a seemingly preposterous price, which they even out over a few years, and then manage to get PSG to buy the very same player a year later for much more, and in bulk. They buy Owen and sell him for more. Buy Beckham, Ronaldo, Zidane, and Figo at their primes, win with them, and reap tons more based on their celebrity. They sell an ageing Morientes for much more than he's worth, Solari for the same. etc etc etc. Madrid makes good transfer-- moneywise, so it is highly irrational to somehow think that Real will trade a player in Baptista whose market value is ~40% more than Cole for the latter player. This won't happen, and least not in the manner described. Most likely, Real Madrid will simply buy Cole if they want him.

Besides, I don't share in the "We hate Cole, Sell him" bandwagon. To me, inasmuch as players view the game as business should directors, trainers, etc view the game as a business, and for us fans to expect those who manage the clubs to act in the best possible way to keep our club successful. In order words, unless Clichy demonstrates for a much longer period than he has that he can successfully fill Cole's boots, then Ashley stays. I'm highly doubtful that we will get more than 10 million for Cole, and this being the case, I do not see how it's in good business to sell the player. And for all our distaste in Cole's little episode with Chelsea, there is still camaraderie between him, his mates, and his manager, and this is all that matters insofar as the player performs on the pitch—which Cole does.

Therefore, what we will get for him not being that much or even close to what he offers to the team defensively, and as a senior player who is English (And this ****ing matters—image/publicity/fanbase), I see no bloody reason in selling him because he tried to blackmail the club into offering him more money, and then refusing to accept responsibility.

All we have is an unprincipled player, who is a great player, and who positively affects the locker rooms. I say keep him and sell him at age 29, when he is about to decline.

 

[dev_atdi]

To be honest, from what I've seen from "The Beast" so far in Madrid colours has been nothing short of mediocre. He barely starts, barely makes any impact on the game (when he starts) and barely ever scores. He's been a huge flop. The only reason he ever looked good in Seville was because he was the main man of the team; the focal point. Players depended on him to score the goals. At Madrid, however, he's useless. Fills a gap in the pitch and appears as a lazy sub 70 minutes in. They really didn't need to pay £20million for this bloke...and quite frankly, didn't ever need him at all. Pure greed and a waste of money. And possibly, wasted talent.


So, from that...we should keep Cole. Whether there's any deal or not.

 

[asajoseph]

I really do wonder whether people who want to treat football as a free market have genuinely thought about what they say - should employees really be able to leave at a month's notice? Should the small-market teams be offered absolutely no protection whatsoever from the big market clubs? Relaxing the labour laws to bring them in line with what's legislated for 'normal' employment by the government and the EU would most likely create a pretty scary footballing future. Clubs everywhere would lose stability, and, as players move around faster than pieces in a game of speed chess, their identity.

A world in which football is treated like just any other business is a footballing world devoid of romance, of competition, and probably of Arsenal. In that world, Cole would already be gone. Henry would most likely be gone. Fabregas would probably be gone, as well as probably several others.

And Kwame, how on earth do you reconcile your free-market football economics with a desire for English players?

Honestly, to say that football is just like any other business, the players are employees and have every right to disrespect the fans etc. is, in my oppinion, to completely disregard the romance of the game. Which, for some of us old ****ers, is why we enjoy watching it in the first place. If I want to watch companies and sets of employees competing against each other, I'll follow the stock market. As it happens, football is not an example of a free market, and never could be. Fans are not like customers - they can't change their product if the one they buy is unsatisfactory. Players are not like employees - whilst employed on merit, they can't just terminate their contracts as and when they see fit (oh, and if you want to treat Cole like an 'employee', you'd surely be willing to let him hand in his one month notice, should he want to?), and football clubs are certainly not like normal companies (although of the three, the analogy probably fits the most closely in this case).

 

[Gurgen]

Well said Asa.

I can't look at football as a product, and to be frank I don't care if directors, agents and greedy ****s of players look at it that way. A product is something you can buy and dispose of. Being a fan is a constant process of giving and taking, a bit like a relationship actually :mrgreen:
We love the club and Cashley has made a mockery of our club. You don't keep your girlfriend after she's slept with the neighbour and then claims it was all right because we live in a free world, just because you can't find yourself a better one. No, you dump the *****, and keep your dignity.

 

[_scorpion_]

Whether you look at the football market as ‘free economics’ is beside the point.

For once I must side with Kwame.

There is nothing to gain in offloading a consistently high performer in Cole for only 8-10 million pounds. Especially when you look at how reluctant Wenger is at spending whatever money he makes from transfers.

Keep Cole, have Clichy as back up and forget about Baptista altogether, because apart from the likelihood of us getting screwed in any deal with Madrid, Baptista has looked like nothing special.

Also, for those using the ‘Cole screwed us line’. What on earth do you think Baptista did when he said he ‘dreamt of playing with Henry at Arsenal’!?!

 

[asajoseph]

Also, for those using the ‘Cole screwed us line’. What on earth do you think Baptista did when he said he ‘dreamt of playing with Henry at Arsenal’!?!

Baptista plays for Madrid, I'll worry about that if he signs for Arsenal. As far as I'm concerned, it was Wenger's fault we got 'screwed' anyway, because he had no contingency plan and wasted too much time on Baptista (althouh we don't really know what happened behind the scenes anyway.

There is nothing to gain in offloading a consistently high performer in Cole for only 8-10 million pounds.

For some people, myself included, there are more important things in supporting my team than winning, and integrity is one of them. Cole has no integrity, and by keeping him on nor do the club, in my view.

If you want to have this discussion, I'll start by asking a question - as far as Arsenal are concerned, do you believe there are more important things than winning?

 

[_scorpion_]

Also, for those using the ‘Cole screwed us line’. What on earth do you think Baptista did when he said he ‘dreamt of playing with Henry at Arsenal’!?!

Baptista plays for Madrid, I'll worry about that if he signs for Arsenal. As far as I'm concerned, it was Wenger's fault we got 'screwed' anyway, because he had no contingency plan and wasted too much time on Baptista (althouh we don't really know what happened behind the scenes anyway.

There is nothing to gain in offloading a consistently high performer in Cole for only 8-10 million pounds.

For some people, myself included, there are more important things in supporting my team than winning, and integrity is one of them. Cole has no integrity, and by keeping him on nor do the club, in my view.

If you want to have this discussion, I'll start by asking a question - as far as Arsenal are concerned, do you believe there are more important things than winning?

As far as Arsenal Football Club is concerned, its existence, its debt, its future financially....there is NOTHING more important than winning I'm afraid.

That is just a sad reality of what football is about these days...its business whether you agree with it or not.

Just be thankful we play a brand of football that is easy for the eye and entertaining....but that is as close to the moral high ground we will ever get.

If integrity mattered, people like Vieira would have been shown the door a long time ago. Not accepted and continued to be accepted as club captain!

Asa the sad truth is if we don't win matches, we don’t make money as a football club, we can't pay for players (transfers/wages) we end up like Leeds.

Cole not having integrity is a whole different discussion. This is about an unlikely swap deal and my thoughts are that 8-10 million pounds for what we will miss defensively (If Cole were offloaded) is just not worth it. Baptista just doesn’t look like the answer at the moment and Madrid will low ball us as Kwame has pointed out.

Morals went out of fashion a long time ago in football I’m afraid....we are lucky our manager (although soft at times) has held true in his belief as to how the game should be played.

 

[Wenger14]

Also, for those using the ‘Cole screwed us line’. What on earth do you think Baptista did when he said he ‘dreamt of playing with Henry at Arsenal’!?!

The only difference being, he wasn't at Arsenal, he never had any emotional attachment to the club nor the fans, he wasn't a fan favourite and he wasn't OUR local lad.

I backed Cole to the fullest, defended the arrogance, defended the betrayal and most of all defended his non-existant loyalty towards the club. But the moment I read the sodding lad had a buy out clause in his newly extended contract, it not only discarded of any support he had from me, it made me see things for what it was, without a rose coloured glass.

This isn't the same lad who loved the club, it isn't the same lad who would have one day led the club, his heart isn't with Arsenal anymore. Did this happen before he met with Chelsea or after? I have no idea, i'm inclined into believing it was after, and as a consequence of the consequences he suffered. But does it really matter?

As a favour to the ones who love the club, and as a favour to the people who have worked their asses off to have a name at this club and give this club a name, Cole should be allowed to leave, for free for all I care. Let Hoyte show him, what loyalty and hard work can bring you. Anyone distrust Clichy/Hoyte as our LB's, should open up, and give them a chance.

Phew felt good getting that off my chest.

 

[Wenger14]

We love the club and Cashley has made a mockery of our club. You don't keep your girlfriend after she's slept with the neighbour and then claims it was all right because we live in a free world, just because you can't find yourself a better one. No, you dump the *****, and keep your dignity.

Brilliant analogy, metaphor or whatever it is :wink:

Well said.

 

[asajoseph]

Scorpion,

I'm well aware of the relationship between winning and financial stability. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about your relationship with Arsenal football club, and what is important to you as a fan. How do you feel about the importance of winning?

Would you be happy with any of the following, if it meant we won more (and I'm not specifically saying anything about any of them, just asking the question):

1 - If Roman Abramovich bought Arsenal instead of Chelsea?

2 - If Richard Desmond bought Arsenal?

3 - If Saddam Hussein bought Arsenal?

4 - If Arsenal relocated to Hatfield?

5 - If Arsenal relocated to Northern France?

6 - If Arsenal relocated to Bangalore (and now we're getting close to 'real' business - it's recently happened where I work)?

7 - If Arsenal renamed themselves Emirates FC?

8 - If Arsenal had a player turnover rate of over 50% a year (which isn't unkown in American sport).

9 - If Arsenal decided to play every game behind closed doors, to maximise tv revenue?

10 - If every seat at Ashburton was sold to corporate clients?

11 - If Arsenal decided to merge with Sp**s, to become Arsenal Hotspur FC?

I could go on like that for a while, but that, for now will do along that line...

So, a few more questions along a different line:-

1) How would you feel if Henry came out tomorrow and said he wanted to play for Manchester Utd, and leave in the January window?

2) How would you feel if Henry came out tomorrow and said he wanted to play for Sp**s, come January?

3) Would you still be happy to keep Cole if he went and met, say, Martin Jol in a restaurant, and then tell us all that he had every right to (which he doesn't), that he hasn't broken any rules (which he has), and that he's not sorry (which he should be?)

4) How would you feel if Cole met Chelsea again?

I think you get the picture....

 

[_scorpion_]

Scorpion,

I'm well aware of the relationship between winning and financial stability. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about your relationship with Arsenal football club, and what is important to you as a fan. How do you feel about the importance of winning?

Would you be happy with any of the following, if it meant we won more (and I'm not specifically saying anything about any of them, just asking the question):

1 - If Roman Abramovich bought Arsenal instead of Chelsea?

2 - If Richard Desmond bought Arsenal?

3 - If Saddam Hussein bought Arsenal?

4 - If Arsenal relocated to Hatfield?

5 - If Arsenal relocated to Northern France?

6 - If Arsenal relocated to Bangalore (and now we're getting close to 'real' business - it's recently happened where I work)?

7 - If Arsenal renamed themselves Emirates FC?

8 - If Arsenal had a player turnover rate of over 50% a year (which isn't unkown in American sport).

9 - If Arsenal decided to play every game behind closed doors, to maximise tv revenue?

10 - If every seat at Ashburton was sold to corporate clients?

11 - If Arsenal decided to merge with Sp**s, to become Arsenal Hotspur FC?

I could go on like that for a while, but that, for now will do along that line...

So, a few more questions along a different line:-

1) How would you feel if Henry came out tomorrow and said he wanted to play for Manchester Utd, and leave in the January window?

2) How would you feel if Henry came out tomorrow and said he wanted to play for Sp**s, come January?

3) Would you still be happy to keep Cole if he went and met, say, Martin Jol in a restaurant, and then tell us all that he had every right to (which he doesn't), that he hasn't broken any rules (which he has), and that he's not sorry (which he should be?)

4) How would you feel if Cole met Chelsea again?

I think you get the picture....

Asa,

I can understand your point and personally I play football for love and watch it for love too. I would never be happy with the club if they went the Chelsea or Madrid path!

But you said it yourself...your talking about Arsenal from your own point of view. Your own relationship with the club. That is a totally different discussion as to talking about Arsenal Football Club and what it 'should do' for itself and its own best interest.

The club should keep Cole, especially if they can't get more than 8-10 million pounds for him. That is what the club 'should do' because the team stands to lose more if he is offloaded for the amounts being recently quoted. It's a business decision. What I would do would involve a 4 x 2 plank and a few quick swipes over his little head!

On another tangent you have bigger teams from around the world feeding on financially crippled clubs every day. We see it time and time again when a big club simply bullies another club into handing over its talent (Madrid and Chelsea prime examples). If we let Cole go, we can forget about being a big club. Other clubs will see this and know that there is a price for EVERY player on our roster should they wish to pick us apart.

You cannot tell me that Arsène's plan was NOT to develop Arsenal into a big club...take a look at what is being built just down the road from Highbury and you'll see.....that's a business decision Asa....not a sentimental one.

It is all about money and all those excellent scenario's you pointed above are:

Money vs Morals predicaments.

I have my personal responses to each of those points, but I can guarantee you I’d respond differently if I was responding on behalf of AFC and its future existence.

I'm 100% sure Dein feels the way you do at the moment. I know he isn’t happy with Cole. But Arsène feels differently too....he is looking at this from a business perspective and I would have to agree with him.

You cannot say Aresne is a man devoid of morals like *****-whore. He (like me) take the approach that the club is for the supporters and while many supporters share your anger at what Cole has done, when he finally leaves, there will still be a club for supporters to support. If this were not the case, Arsène would have let Anelka, Vieira and Cole all leave the club for free.

 

[asajoseph]

Scorp,

You see, in my oppinion I think there's supposed to be some kind of relationship between Arsenal Football club and it's fans. We, the fans, are what make Arsenal Arsenal. In fact, we're what make football football. We invest a great deal of our time, emotion and (in many cases) money in Arsenal Football club - we spend a greater proportion of our money on Arsenal than any of these players ever do, we make massive (proportionally) sacrifices to follow the club, and then there's the whole un-quantifiable amount of emotional capital.

In my oppinion, we do deserve something back from the club, from the owners to the management to the players themselves. Every single one of them has been given a great priviledge, an honour, and been paid a hell of a lot of money for that. Are they our property? No, of course not, but with everything they've been granted I think they DO owe the fans respect, at the very least.

Actually, it probably doesn't make the most financial sense in the world to do anything to us fans other than squeeze every last penny out of us. Chances are, we'll still buy the shirts, still go to games, and still get a hotdog at half time. It might not be the same people that go to games, and not the same people sitting in those seats, but they'll probably still sell. But personally, I just don't think that's 'ok'. There are certain things that I'm extremely proud of - and even when I was about 8 or 9, just beginning to really follow football, I was impressed with the integrity that seemed to surround Arsenal. That's something that I really feel we're losing right now - with the financial pressure that Ashburton's put on us it's understandable I guess, but as far as I'm concerned this whole Cole saga was just one step too far.

In my view, Arsenal FC have a number of responsibilities, and winning is only one of them. Yes, as fans we all want Arsenal to do as well as possible. But there are certain things that I personally, and I'm sure many others, are not willing to sacrifice to get there. Hence the rather exaggerated examples of things that might turn you off from supporting Arsenal. As the MK Dons and Manchester Utd found out, it IS actually possible to alienate supporters if you don't take into consideration what's actually important to the fans. To many fans, winning is the first and only important thing in supporting a club. Many fans don't really see any significance in the Cole saga. Personally though, the wounds around the whole thing have not healed - even though I thought perhaps they might. For me, the integrity of the club is incredibly important. The empathy I feel with the players is important. If I feel that pulling on an Arsenal shirt is less important to the XI boys on the pitch than it is to me, I'm honestly not happy. Is it economically important? No, not really, but it's a big deal to me. It's about tradition, heart and soul, what I really love about the game.

Ashley Cole, for me, has become a symbol for everything that's wrong about football today - he cares more about his trophy girlfriend, the money he takes home, and a celebrity lifestyle than he does about any kind of loyalty to the Arsenal shirt. I honestly would have at least two of my toes amputated to run out for Arsenal for 5 minutes at the end of a Premiership match. Ok, maybe that's creepy, but I DO love the club. And ideally, that's what I want to see in players, but in Cole I just see the opposite badmouthing my team-mates and colleagues to our rivals - whatever business you're in, that's not good practice.

Anyway, that's the moral grounds for wanting Cole gone. Now a quick look at the practicality of it.

How many points is Ashley Cole really worth a season? How much worse would we REALLY be if we sold Ashley Cole before we even consider what we get for him? Personally, I'm a big fan of Clichy - he's got a way to go before he matches Cole, but so far I see no reason why he can't.

As for the 8 million figure, is that really concrete? Or is it just media speculation? It might be true, but if it is it makes very little sense. But even if it were true, we allegedly have a large transfer kitty already - wisely (or even vaguely intelligently) spent, we stand to be a much better team by the end of next summer with or without Cole. Invest that money in the key areas of the pitch where we are obviously lacking (CM, striker and in goal come next summer), and we'll be a much, much stronger team whether it's Cole, Clichy or A.N.Other at LB.

On another tangent you have bigger teams from around the world feeding on financially crippled clubs every day. We see it time and time again when a big club simply bullies another club into handing over its talent (Madrid and Chelsea prime examples). If we let Cole go, we can forget about being a big club. Other clubs will see this and know that there is a price for EVERY player on our roster should they wish to pick us apart.

I disagree - most people are probably well aware of our relationship with Cole. They know the issues. They're well aware that the situation between us and Ashley is not the same as the situation between us and, say, Kolo Toure. Furthermore, if we do invest wisely in the market, we don't have to look like a small market club. Buy a big name or too as we move into Ashburton (and I'm sure we can manage it financially already), and we'll have no problem making the step up. Keeping Cole is NOT the key issue in Arsenal making the step up, although it is a key issue in maintaining a certain amount of moral high ground (which isn't essential for anything other than self-esteem). I do think you're overplaying Ashley's importance somewhat - he's not Henry. And in terms of talent we could easily let him go and become a better all-round team within the space of the same transfer window. Yes, he's a great player. But he's no linchpin.

As for Wenger, I'm certainly accusing him of being amoral. I have no idea about how he feels about Cole, and that's just the way it should be. He has his reasons for acting how he does and more often than not I have no idea what they are. But, if Ashley Cole is still an Arsenal player next season, someone somewhere at the club will have have the responsibility for flushing the club's integrity down the toilet on this particular issue.

 

[_scorpion_]

Scorp,

You see, in my oppinion I think there's supposed to be some kind of relationship between Arsenal Football club and it's fans. We, the fans, are what make Arsenal Arsenal. In fact, we're what make football football. We invest a great deal of our time, emotion and (in many cases) money in Arsenal Football club - we spend a greater proportion of our money on Arsenal than any of these players ever do, we make massive (proportionally) sacrifices to follow the club, and then there's the whole un-quantifiable amount of emotional capital.

In my oppinion, we do deserve something back from the club, from the owners to the management to the players themselves. Every single one of them has been given a great priviledge, an honour, and been paid a hell of a lot of money for that. Are they our property? No, of course not, but with everything they've been granted I think they DO owe the fans respect, at the very least.

Actually, it probably doesn't make the most financial sense in the world to do anything to us fans other than squeeze every last penny out of us. Chances are, we'll still buy the shirts, still go to games, and still get a hotdog at half time. It might not be the same people that go to games, and not the same people sitting in those seats, but they'll probably still sell. But personally, I just don't think that's 'ok'. There are certain things that I'm extremely proud of - and even when I was about 8 or 9, just beginning to really follow football, I was impressed with the integrity that seemed to surround Arsenal. That's something that I really feel we're losing right now - with the financial pressure that Ashburton's put on us it's understandable I guess, but as far as I'm concerned this whole Cole saga was just one step too far.

In my view, Arsenal FC have a number of responsibilities, and winning is only one of them. Yes, as fans we all want Arsenal to do as well as possible. But there are certain things that I personally, and I'm sure many others, are not willing to sacrifice to get there. Hence the rather exaggerated examples of things that might turn you off from supporting Arsenal. As the MK Dons and Manchester Utd found out, it IS actually possible to alienate supporters if you don't take into consideration what's actually important to the fans. To many fans, winning is the first and only important thing in supporting a club. Many fans don't really see any significance in the Cole saga. Personally though, the wounds around the whole thing have not healed - even though I thought perhaps they might. For me, the integrity of the club is incredibly important. The empathy I feel with the players is important. If I feel that pulling on an Arsenal shirt is less important to the XI boys on the pitch than it is to me, I'm honestly not happy. Is it economically important? No, not really, but it's a big deal to me. It's about tradition, heart and soul, what I really love about the game.

Ashley Cole, for me, has become a symbol for everything that's wrong about football today - he cares more about his trophy girlfriend, the money he takes home, and a celebrity lifestyle than he does about any kind of loyalty to the Arsenal shirt. I honestly would have at least two of my toes amputated to run out for Arsenal for 5 minutes at the end of a Premiership match. Ok, maybe that's creepy, but I DO love the club. And ideally, that's what I want to see in players, but in Cole I just see the opposite badmouthing my team-mates and colleagues to our rivals - whatever business you're in, that's not good practice.

Anyway, that's the moral grounds for wanting Cole gone. Now a quick look at the practicality of it.

How many points is Ashley Cole really worth a season? How much worse would we REALLY be if we sold Ashley Cole before we even consider what we get for him? Personally, I'm a big fan of Clichy - he's got a way to go before he matches Cole, but so far I see no reason why he can't.

As for the 8 million figure, is that really concrete? Or is it just media speculation? It might be true, but if it is it makes very little sense. But even if it were true, we allegedly have a large transfer kitty already - wisely (or even vaguely intelligently) spent, we stand to be a much better team by the end of next summer with or without Cole. Invest that money in the key areas of the pitch where we are obviously lacking (CM, striker and in goal come next summer), and we'll be a much, much stronger team whether it's Cole, Clichy or A.N.Other at LB.

On another tangent you have bigger teams from around the world feeding on financially crippled clubs every day. We see it time and time again when a big club simply bullies another club into handing over its talent (Madrid and Chelsea prime examples). If we let Cole go, we can forget about being a big club. Other clubs will see this and know that there is a price for EVERY player on our roster should they wish to pick us apart.

I disagree - most people are probably well aware of our relationship with Cole. They know the issues. They're well aware that the situation between us and Ashley is not the same as the situation between us and, say, Kolo Toure. Furthermore, if we do invest wisely in the market, we don't have to look like a small market club. Buy a big name or too as we move into Ashburton (and I'm sure we can manage it financially already), and we'll have no problem making the step up. Keeping Cole is NOT the key issue in Arsenal making the step up, although it is a key issue in maintaining a certain amount of moral high ground (which isn't essential for anything other than self-esteem). I do think you're overplaying Ashley's importance somewhat - he's not Henry. And in terms of talent we could easily let him go and become a better all-round team within the space of the same transfer window. Yes, he's a great player. But he's no linchpin.

As for Wenger, I'm certainly accusing him of being amoral. I have no idea about how he feels about Cole, and that's just the way it should be. He has his reasons for acting how he does and more often than not I have no idea what they are. But, if Ashley Cole is still an Arsenal player next season, someone somewhere at the club will have have the responsibility for flushing the club's integrity down the toilet on this particular issue.

Great post Asa.

I know there are many supporters like you that do not enjoy seeing Cole around Arsenal no more and your reasoning is quite valid. But your reasoning is based on emotion and I'm afraid the club does not make decisions based on emotion (but I'm sure you know that).

I will however disagree with you on the importance of having Cole in our 11 from a business and team point of view. The 8 million pound figure is not a hoax. It is quite valid. There have been noises, most recently up to November 12 that Madrid are in for Cole....but this whole swap issue with Baptista is BS. Since their recent run of poor form there is now talk that a new coach will be put in place at Madrid and who knows whether he will ask Perez for new players or even discard some of his current stock.

What I'm trying to say is that 8 million pounds won't buy you an international world class LB (don’t mention Del-Horno because I don’t see him in Coles class as a player). How many points is Cole worth? Well how do you calculate that? Defenders work as a pack and at times we’ve seen the effects of what happens when some of our defenders are missing (E.g Toure’s loss of form when Sol isn’t around and the teams general shakiness whenever Cygan plays). Players have confidence in their teammates and Cole is someone that I know has the teams confidence. He might not bag 30 goals for us but his importance to the 11 should not be underestimated.

Say what you like about all the alternatives out there, I guarantee you we will end up forking out at least the 8 million pounds gained to find someone who may not even be in the same class as Cole. He is the best LB in the game at the moment and while that is not as crucial position to play in as say Striker or CM, in a team like ours (that plays attacking football) finding the right players that fit into that system is not a simple process. I’m not just talking about pie in the sky fairytale transfers (like say Zambrotta)…I’m talking about REALISTIC options! There are not many LB of Coles class that even exist, let alone are available for 8 million pounds or would even want a transfer to Arsenal.

As for Clichy, while I rate him, he is still a youngster and injury prone. He is not at Coles class yet, but who knows what will happen in the future as Cole wasn’t exactly an early bloomer.

Selling Cole for 8 million pounds to replace him with an alternative that may or may not be as good is not a situation that makes financial sense for Arsenal. Particularly when you factor in things like his combinations with the other defenders, keeping our most experienced group of players together, his English nationality and off course his ability.

That is what Arsène thinks and I agree with him. This is big business and letting emotion get in the way can prove to be too expensive for us. Can you imagine Arsène spending what *****-whore spent on Carvalleo, then letting him rot in the reserves for comments he made about not getting first team action? It just won’t happen because A) Arsène is moralistic and B) we can’t afford that line with players we spend vast amounts of money acquiring.

Personally I don’t like it, but I agree with it. I don’t see an alternative for our club until we are in a financial position where we can dictate the terms.

I also personally think Cole WILL leave unless Arsène can convince him to stay….so all this becomes irrelevant really. However, I just wanted you to see that while you may have a moralistic view of how things should be done, in the modern world of football , having that view is only going to lead to personal disappointment. It is all business make no mistake about it.

 

[jeromelee]

Great debate going on. Scorpion, although I don't agree with you on a lot of your past post, on this thread whatever you said seems spot on to me too. Arsenal while we as fans feel should be run with integrity and loyalty cannot survive on that. It must be run as a business. Cole may have made a mistake, but Arsenal and Wenger would be making one too if they let him go for cheap. While it's sad to know we have players like Cole in the team that could leave easily, we still need his services. He is still amongst the best in his position. Not to mention the fact that he's been there so long he know's exactly how the team works. He's know when he needs to make those daunting runs up and he knows when to fall back. And equally importantly, Sol/ Pires/ Gilberto etc also knows his style and would know how to compensate when he's caught out of position while on one of his runs up. It will take a long time to train someone to that level again and rightly said, Clichy is still not quite there yet and who knows if he will ever be there.

On the issue of finance, I think if we lost him for 8mil that's a real loss to us. He's easily worth more than that. Firstly, he's young. Secondly, he's extremely talented. If Rio can be worth 30mil don't you think Cole's worth a lot more than 8mil which in football terms today is peanuts.

If you want to get rid of all players who have been disloyal to us at one point or another for moral reason's or integrity or whatever, then we'd have lost Paddy a long time ago. Henry would be sold now. Reyes won't be here as well. And Pires, sol and Freddie might be elsewhere too. But that's not how to run a club.

Asa, it's true that in an ideal world we'd have players that are totally loyal to our club but that's sadly not true. It has nothing to do with how much a fan we are or not. It's how well we want to see a club managed. Frankly, selling Cole for 8mil is going to be a huge mistake for us. Not just monetary wise but tactics wise. Clichy is not the answer yet and Hoyte hasn't really proven himself to be an able deputy.

Cole made a mistake, but Arsenal shouldn't. Two mistakes don't make a right.

 

[asajoseph]

Scorp,

I take everything you say on board - it's well expressed, and it does make sense. I do recognise that my argument is a moral argument and nothing more, and I certainly recognise that in the world we live in we all have to make compromises on some issues. That's the reason I put up with summers of the Vieira saga. That's why I put up with Henry being so reticent to commit. That's why I put up with Arsenal backing out of commitments to the local community. There are plenty of things that, whilst they would be lovely, as fans we just can't practicaly have our cake and eat it. I'm certainly not a utopian, believe me.

But, as far as I'm concerned, despite all the other ways players have shafted the fans, Cole over-stepped the mark. Whilst don't expect every player to have quite as much love for the club as I do, I just will not accept that any of them should be allowed to get away with what Cole will be getting away with if we keep him. He went behind our back, against the terms of his contract and the laws of football, tried to engineer a move to our biggest rivals, badmouthed the management and his colleagues and when he was found out showed absolutely no remorse. For me, as far as I'm concerned, there is absolutely no forgiveness for that. Is it an emotional appeal? Yes, it is. Is it a subjective feeling? Yes. But I'll be incredibly disappointed if, to at least some degree, the club doesn't share any of that.

Ultimately, if we let Ashley Cole go, we'd be weaker at LB (in the short term). I'm a big fan of Clichy, but we'd still need another player. But, given our existing funds and some money for the Cole transfer, we'll be in a great position to improve more influential and more thinly stocked areas of the field than LB (I'm thinking particularly of CM now).

Anyhow, I have more to add, but I'm at work, so I gotta run.