Expectations from Emery's first season, 2018/19

[Slartibartfast]

Seriously here, those people who voted for top 4 minimum, no excuses, are being way too harsh. Here’some excuses for you, managers and their first season in the EPL

Klopp, Liverpool 8th
Mourinho, United 6th
Pep, City 3rd
LVG United 4th
Pochettino Sp**s 5th
Rodgers Liverpool 7th
Villas-Boas Sp**s 6th

To do well straight off the bat is rarer and certainly not with teams spending 5th in the league.

There’s a world of difference between hopes and expectations. ‘Top 4, throw in a cup, no excuses’ . . . ****ing ridiculous.

Van Gaal's 4th place finish was up from United's 7th place finish the season before, so actually that shows it can be done. Others on that list improved the club's league position from the previous season. I could also cherry pick instances where managers won titles in their first season (Conte, Ancelotti, Mourinho twice, Pellegrini). But we're not talking about winning the title. We're talking about moving up two spots into 4th place. Not at all an unreasonable expectation.

 

[Makingtrax]

Why? We're being consistent at least, holding Emery to a high standard like we did with Wenger.

Taking over in October with Brendan Rodgers' players, also prioritising the EL in the 2nd half of the season which led to their getting to the final. Finished 4th in his first full season.

United were poor at times but they were still in the race for top 4 until the last few weeks, at which point they prioritised the EL.

These guys were still building, they took over poor unbalanced squads from their predecessors. In their 2nd seasons they finished 1st, 3rd and 2nd respectively. Could see a similar scenario with Emery where he uses the first season to bed in before really going for it in the 2nd season but top 4 should be the aim.

Yes, 2nd season, agreed. But top 4, no excuses, first season as an ‘expectation’ is a whole different bunch of bananas.

 

[DanDare]

The Ornstein tweet suggests we should expect experienced new signings to go straight into starting XI and stay there to give a period of stability at the start of the season.

Mavro/Nketiah etc go get cup games

 

[Makingtrax]

Van Gaal's 4th place finish was up from United's 7th place finish the season before, so actually that shows it can be done. Others on that list improved the club's league position from the previous season. I could also cherry pick instances where managers won titles in their first season (Conte, Ancelotti, Mourinho twice, Pellegrini). But we're not talking about winning the title. We're talking about moving up two spots into 4th place. Not at all an unreasonable expectation.

Most of those guys you mentioned were surfing on peak oligarch spending.

Emery has a stack of excuses if he doesn’t make top 4 in his first year, a disinterested owner being the biggest, his captain’s snapped Achilles, Ramsey going missing for several weeks with his usual soft tissue injury, an aging keeper that can’t save penalties, a German CB that gives the ball away under pressure. I could go on.

I’m all for ambition, and year 2 let’s go for it. But year one . . no excuses. Let’s give the guy a break.

 

[Brown Gooner]

All I hope for is no group of death in the Champions League next season!

 

[Makingtrax]

Why? We're being consistent at least, holding Emery to a high standard like we did with Wenger.

Taking over in October with Brendan Rodgers' players, also prioritising the EL in the 2nd half of the season which led to their getting to the final. Finished 4th in his first full season.

United were poor at times but they were still in the race for top 4 until the last few weeks, at which point they prioritised the EL.

These guys were still building, they took over poor unbalanced squads from their predecessors. In their 2nd seasons they finished 1st, 3rd and 2nd respectively. Could see a similar scenario with Emery where he uses the first season to bed in before really going for it in the 2nd season but top 4 should be the aim.

PS

Slipped right in to defending the new manager already. It feels good, like an old mattress with hollows in the right places.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Most of those guys you mentioned were surfing on peak oligarch spending.

Emery has a stack of excuses if he doesn’t make top 4 in his first year, a disinterested owner being the biggest, his captain’s snapped Achilles, Ramsey going missing for several weeks with his usual soft tissue injury, an aging keeper that can’t save penalties, a German CB that gives the ball away under pressure. I could go on.

I’m all for ambition, and year 2 let’s go for it. But year one . . no excuses. Let’s give the guy a break.

You're conflating expectations with support of the manager. It's not a matter of giving Emery a break. Nobody is saying he should be fired if he doesn't meet that expectation. He, himself, will expect to get the team back into the top 4 this year. If he doesn't expect it, then he shouldn't have been hired. Arsène Wenger would expect to get back into the top 4 if he were still the manager and I would expect it as well. I would have expected it from Arteta (although I'd have been far less confident of it happening). Oxford defines expectation as "a belief that someone will or should achieve something." Without that belief, failure becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you set the bar so low that it takes no effort to clear it, you're not going to achieve much.

 

[c00lguy]

Has to be top 4. A cup's not necessary.

 

[Artisan]

Finish above Tottenham. Anything else is a failure.

 

[Makingtrax]

You're conflating expectations with support of the manager. It's not a matter of giving Emery a break. Nobody is saying he should be fired if he doesn't meet that expectation. He, himself, will expect to get the team back into the top 4 this year. If he doesn't expect it, then he shouldn't have been hired. Arséne Wenger would expect to get back into the top 4 if he were still the manager and I would expect it as well. I would have expected it from Arteta (although I'd have been far less confident of it happening). Oxford defines expectation as "a belief that someone will or should achieve something." Without that belief, failure becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you set the bar so low that it takes no effort to clear it, you're not going to achieve much.

It’s not really the expectation part I have so much of a problem with, it’s the ‘no excuses’.

I’m sure Emery will be busting a gut to get as high as possible.

The board will also have a target. I was convinced for Wenger it was always top 4 and/or trophy. That’s why he’s stayed so long, he met that target every year except the last.

The fans have their own expectations of course and are clearly ruthless. Even though Wenger got top 4 and/or a trophy for 21 years, they mocked him mercilessly for years. I don’t want to see that happening with Emery. And certainly not in the first year.

Every manager has a barrel of excuses in year 1. It takes a while to get to know the players, and sort out perceived weaknesses. Yes, it’s a results based business but he’ll need some time, and a year is not unreasonable. Obviously if we finish below half way, that’s a different matter. But 5th, 6th or 7th, with the team improving as the season progresses will set us up ready for an aggressive campaign in year 2.

 

[Mo Britain]

My point is 1950s was long ago. Using the term 'not so long ago' for the 50s doesn't sit well with me.... Or my dad (born 1958) who is a grandfather... I mean if that is the criteria for 'not so long ago' then the league has barely been played for very long....

My dad was born in 1919. Long ago is relative to one's age which is kind of what I was saying, if you're born in the eighties you think these dinosaurs existed years ago but still we think Arsenal have a right to be a big club forever and aye. Not so.

 

[Slartibartfast]

It’s not really the expectation part I have so much of a problem with, it’s the ‘no excuses’.

I’m sure Emery will be busting a gut to get as high as possible.

The board will also have a target. I was convinced for Wenger it was always top 4 and/or trophy. That’s why he’s stayed so long, he met that target every year except the last.

The fans have their own expectations of course and are clearly ruthless. Even though Wenger got top 4 and/or a trophy for 21 years, they mocked him mercilessly for years. I don’t want to see that happening with Emery. And certainly not in the first year.

Every manager has a barrel of excuses in year 1. It takes a while to get to know the players, and sort out perceived weaknesses. Yes, it’s a results based business but he’ll need some time, and a year is not unreasonable. Obviously if we finish below half way, that’s a different matter. But 5th, 6th or 7th, with the team improving as the season progresses will set us up ready for an aggressive campaign in year 2.

Well, I wouldn't have voted "no excuses" or "cup" had there been a choice without them that reflected the expectation of getting back into the top 4. It was simply the closest choice available. A cup would be nice, but getting back to the top 4 is more important. That said, there really isn't any reason for excuses either. If they fail to meet expectations, they fail to meet expectations. I don't really care to hear why. Just go out and do better next time.

I expected Arsène Wenger's team to finish in the top 4 this year. They didn't. While others mocked him or spewed hatred toward him, I did not -- even though his team failed to meet expectations (either mine or Arsène's). There are a million reasons why this happened, but making excuses for it doesn't change the facts. I suspect that a lot of the mocking and vitriol was the result of about a dozen years of frustration built up through failing to live up to the more lofty expectation of winning the league or the Champions League. From the loss to Barcelona in the Champions League final to the past couple of years of toxicity, there were a lot of seasons in between where the club failed to meet expectations. There were some who had wanted him out for several years, but most fans continue to have faith that Arsenal could get over the hump and win the league again. The major discontent didn't begin until Arsenal failed to beat out Leicester City for the title two years ago (even though they finished 2nd, which most fans would probably give their right testicle for at the moment).

Unai Emery begins with a clean slate and the less lofty expectation of simply getting the club back into the top 4. If they finish 5th or 6th despite appearing to make progress, I doubt many will be grabbing the pitchforks and trying to drive him out like they did with Arsène the past couple of seasons. It will be a disappointment. It will be a failure. But it won't spark mass outrage toward Emery. However, that doesn't mean expectations should be further lowered to just finishing in the top 6 or 7. It's not like this team is devoid of prime talent. It just needs some tweaking. They have until August 9 to do that, both in terms of bringing in reinforcements and making adjustments to the existing squad. Then they have the entire 38-game season to keep getting better. It's really not at all too much to ask to expect a top 4 finish.

 

[Brown Gooner]

Has to be top 4. A cup's not necessary.

Finish above Tottenham. Anything else is a failure.

You guys can’t be serious! This is loser talk. It’s the trophies that matter! Always have and always will!

We finished in the Top four for years but didn’t win anything and I personally prefer the FA Cup years over the top four trophy less years.

Also, Sp**s haven’t won a trophy in a decade now and haven’t won anything significant since 1991.

If Arsenal won the Europa League, win one of the domestic cups and finish fifth in the league then I would consider the season to be a success.

 

[Artisan]

You guys can’t be serious! This is loser talk. It’s the trophies that matter! Always have and always will!

We finished in the Top four for years but didn’t win anything and I personally prefer the FA Cup years over the top four trophy less years.

Also, Sp**s haven’t won a trophy in a decade now and haven’t won anything significant since 1991.

If Arsenal won the Europa League, win one of the domestic cups and finish fifth in the league then I would consider the season to be a success.

Finding finishing below Tottenham acceptable is personally what I'd consider to be loser talk. Maybe some people have gotten so used to the likes of Burnley being our competition that they've forgotten who our rivals are.

 

[Brown Gooner]

Finding finishing below Tottenham acceptable is personally what I'd consider to be loser talk. Maybe some people have gotten so used to the likes of Burnley being our competition that they've forgotten who our rivals are.

For all I care, Sp**s can celebrate their “we finished above Arsenal for a third season” trophy.

If Arsenal win the Europa League and end up in Pot One of the Champions League then the joke would on them and everyone will be laughing at them for another trophy less season.

Top Four is not a trophy and should never be considered one. This is one thing I deeply dislike Wenger for, making mediocrity and no success acceptable!

Europa League and League Cup are real trophies!

And anyway as things stand, neither Arsenal nor Spuds are anywhere near winning the European Cup!

 

[Slartibartfast]

My dad was born in 1919. Long ago is relative to one's age which is kind of what I was saying, if you're born in the eighties you think these dinosaurs existed years ago but still we think Arsenal have a right to be a big club forever and aye. Not so.

Exactly. I was born in 1957. I can assure everyone that 1957 wasn't that long ago (it's something you realize when you reach 60). The 1960s were in some ways like yesterday to me, yet also like another lifetime. But when I think that the first ancestor on my mother's side of the family came from London in the 1600s (and my earliest known ancestor was born in Chelmsford in 1480), you realize that the 1950s were very recent, indeed. And the 1600s aren't that long ago in the whole scheme of human civilization (much less the billions of years since the universe formed). Times change constantly, in life and in football. Usually they change in ways we never expect.

However, I do understand why younger people think of relatively recent history as ancient. In the 1980s, I thought of the 1920s as ancient too. But time gives you perspective. You'll all find out (I hope!).

 

[Bergkamp1988]

My biggest semi-realistic wish is that we win the Europa League.

Considering, we got pretty close this year with a low on confidence / motivation squad. If Emery is able to bring that spark, I think we have our chances in the EL.

Winning it on the first year would be the perfect boost for Arsenals "renaissance".

If we get into the top 4, well, that's just dandy. But I'd be happy to take 5th place with a Europa Trophy.

It really depends on the psychological boost Unay will bring to the squad. If the magic operates, it's quite likely we'll get top 4 and EL.

Unless there's some sort of a "Moyes effect" or post Wenger trauma, but I doubt that. I think we'll have a post Wenger boost rather.

 

[Makingtrax]

Well, I wouldn't have voted "no excuses" or "cup" had there been a choice without them that reflected the expectation of getting back into the top 4. It was simply the closest choice available. A cup would be nice, but getting back to the top 4 is more important. That said, there really isn't any reason for excuses either. If they fail to meet expectations, they fail to meet expectations. I don't really care to hear why. Just go out and do better next time.

I expected Arséne Wenger's team to finish in the top 4 this year. They didn't. While others mocked him or spewed hatred toward him, I did not -- even though his team failed to meet expectations (either mine or Arséne's). There are a million reasons why this happened, but making excuses for it doesn't change the facts. I suspect that a lot of the mocking and vitriol was the result of about a dozen years of frustration built up through failing to live up to the more lofty expectation of winning the league or the Champions League. From the loss to Barcelona in the Champions League final to the past couple of years of toxicity, there were a lot of seasons in between where the club failed to meet expectations. There were some who had wanted him out for several years, but most fans continue to have faith that Arsenal could get over the hump and win the league again. The major discontent didn't begin until Arsenal failed to beat out Leicester City for the title two years ago (even though they finished 2nd, which most fans would probably give their right testicle for at the moment).

Unai Emery begins with a clean slate and the less lofty expectation of simply getting the club back into the top 4. If they finish 5th or 6th despite appearing to make progress, I doubt many will be grabbing the pitchforks and trying to drive him out like they did with Arséne the past couple of seasons. It will be a disappointment. It will be a failure. But it won't spark mass outrage toward Emery. However, that doesn't mean expectations should be further lowered to just finishing in the top 6 or 7. It's not like this team is devoid of prime talent. It just needs some tweaking. They have until August 9 to do that, both in terms of bringing in reinforcements and making adjustments to the existing squad. Then they have the entire 38-game season to keep getting better. It's really not at all too much to ask to expect a top 4 finish.

Think we've found common ground there. Agree with most of that.

Perhaps my view of the team is a little worse than yours though. We certainly have prime attacking talent, but as you go further back the problems mount.

Picking a secure pairing from Chambers, Mustafi, Holding and Mavropanos won’t be easy. He’s got a lot of work to do with getting Bellerin to stop wasting crosses. Xhaka’s is finally getting to grips with the EPL but Elneny is just a very good squad player in my view and AMN is still learning. Wilshere and Ramsey have fitness doubts and will likely break down at some stage. Cech is slower to get down to low shots just inside the post and Ospina has mistakes in him. Kola may improve but doesn’t seem to have the touch at the moment. Good luck sorting that lot out Emery. Nacho is the only really consistent defender.

If with the help of Sven he can make this a team to rival Sp**s, Liverpool and Chelsea, I’ll be well impressed.

 

[BigPoppaPump]

I feel like whichever English teams are in the EL should always be one of the favourites, we made it to the final 4 and Liverpool and United were in the 2 finals before that. I think an EL semi-final is realistic.

 

[Godwin1]

For all I care, Sp**s can celebrate their “we finished above Arsenal for a third season” trophy.

If Arsenal win the Europa League and end up in Pot One of the Champions League then the joke would on them and everyone will be laughing at them for another trophy less season.

Top Four is not a trophy and should never be considered one. This is one thing I deeply dislike Wenger for, making mediocrity and no success acceptable!

Europa League and League Cup are real trophies!

And anyway as things stand, neither Arsenal nor Spuds are anywhere near winning the European Cup!

A Europa league trophy would be nice but domestic cups aren't far off being mickey mouse trophies. At least top 4 would show progress this season, rather than what it signified under Wenger.