Mikel Arteta: Aston La Vista To The Title?

[Iceman10]

What? The football we've been playing recently would be good enough for top 4 across an entire season.

The squad cant play at a title challenging level because it simply isn't good enough. Not sure what point you tried to make there.

Your own stats earlier showed around Top 6 since December. Can forget the circumstances against Wolves, but the loss at Villa showed Top 6 at best, not Top 4. If you want to argue that this squad is a level of Top 6-8 then stick with that for overall consistency.

My view is our squad quality is Top 6-8, *including* some players Arteta has decided to marginalise with loans and to fringes, while our table position is below that, although one can argue since December our form has been Top 6-8 form, but that won’t help to get there when combining before and after December together. Also have to factor in we’ve exited FA Cup very early.

 

[<<reed>>]

'
It's not a short random period. It's our most recent games we've played. You're picking a random period from September to December, and admittedly he did terrible in that time period and I was tearing my hair out.

We are saying, since he's got us playing better in our most recent fixtures, it is looking better than it did earlier in this season.

I know what it is.
They are just using a short sample of decent games and stretching it over the whole season without any evidence that Arteta can/will sustain these stats.
It's all just wishful thinking.
They can use any timeframe to make Arteta look good, but we have played 25 league games and spent the whole season in the bottom part of the table begging for the clubs above us to drop points because we are too crap to win our own games.

 

[EmeryCouldnt]

I know what it is.
They are just using a short sample of decent games and stretching it over the whole season without any evidence that Arteta can/will sustain these stats.
It's all just wishful thinking.
They can use any timeframe to make Arteta look good, but we have played 25 league games and spent the whole season in the bottom part of the table begging for the clubs above us to drop points because we are too crap to win our own games.

Anyone who was calling for Arteta early on and didn't expect some sort of stumble during his tenure was wishfully thinking. The club was already trending downward and he has zero experience as a manager.

The hope was that we would quickly bounce back from these stumbles in a progressively better position. We are currently on the up relative to how we were recently. Arteta is finally fielding a team I can agree with, we are creating a decent amount of chances (still too much sightless crossing), and our defense is getting better (still prone to atleast 1 big error per game).

I agree we aren't where we want to be, but recently it does appear we are finally moving in that direction. It's a positive sign that Arteta was able to turn things around. Decent upgrades being brought in with Ødegaard, Partey, and Gabriel make me more hopeful for the future too.

What would it take to change your mind?

 

[Mo Britain]

We are now halfway between the CL places (11 points) and relegation (12 points). That's not good enough but when you look at our next five games - Leicester (A), Burnley (A), Tootingham (H), West Ham (A), Liverpool (H) - it is easy to foresee the possibility we don't win any of those games and end up with 3/4 points from them.

If that happens we'll go into the last eight games of the league in 13th/14th place and European football will be out of the question unless we win the EL.

 

[Baki]

Why would you give him another summer, he's on £5m a year and he's shown no sign of getting a team to score goals. We were 8th last year and there's no evidence in February that'll he do any better this year.

Exactly and he’s received full backing this summer.

 

[Iceman10]

We are now halfway between the CL places (11 points) and relegation (12 points). That's not good enough but when you look at our next five games - Leicester (A), Burnley (A), Tootingham (H), West Ham (A), Liverpool (H) - it is easy to foresee the possibility we don't win any of those games and end up with 3/4 points from them.

If that happens we'll go into the last eight games of the league in 13th/14th place and European football will be out of thee question unless we win the EL.

This is what really pi**ed me off regarding the Benfica first leg. We should have put the tie to bed in that game and it could have been done even with Pepe, Martinelli, Laca. The use of subs to keep legs fresh was poor also, some subs could have been brought on much earlier where we were allowed to use five subs in that game. Instead we only got a draw while using our apparent First XI players for the second tine in three days going into that tricky run of fixtures where we still had to balance out with upcoming Benfica second leg because we failed to finish them off.

 

[HairSprayGooners]

You posted stats showing us in 5th though...? And that's with other teams struggling as well.

My point is that no matter how we do you say it's as good as it can be. You were saying similar stuff when we were losing every game.

I was because we didn't have a number 10 in the team during that period.

What happened when we started winning and playing better? A number 10 came into the side.

It doesn't take a genius to see that the two correlate.

 

[Red London]

I know what it is.
They are just using a short sample of decent games and stretching it over the whole season without any evidence that Arteta can/will sustain these stats.
It's all just wishful thinking.
They can use any timeframe to make Arteta look good, but we have played 25 league games and spent the whole season in the bottom part of the table begging for the clubs above us to drop points because we are too crap to win our own games.

I agree that many Arteta fans are doing so, and it can be seen as quite pointless unless they are just tryna show that we have at least improved a bit since Christmas.

But I would argue that those constantly insulting Arteta and Arsenal's decision to keep him are ignoring a more medium term timeline. The timeline since Wenger's late years and the decline that followed. I think some people expect results on a season by season basis but in situations like this you are taking a step forward and two steps back in some ways. It was never gonna change overnight, things have had to change and repercussions follow.

 

[Baki]

Anyone who was calling for Arteta early on and didn't expect some sort of stumble during his tenure was wishfully thinking. The club was already trending downward and he has zero experience as a manager.

The hope was that we would quickly bounce back from these stumbles in a progressively better position. We are currently on the up relative to how we were recently. Arteta is finally fielding a team I can agree with, we are creating a decent amount of chances (still too much sightless crossing), and our defense is getting better (still prone to atleast 1 big error per game).

I agree we aren't where we want to be, but recently it does appear we are finally moving in that direction. It's a positive sign that Arteta was able to turn things around. Decent upgrades being brought in with Ødegaard, Partey, and Gabriel make me more hopeful for the future too.

What would it take to change your mind?

So your bar is “not playing relegation football”? This is why I don’t understand Arteta fans, you are seemingly aware of the massive job of turning around Arsenal, yet for some reason are convinced some utter novice can turn around this club when this is the type of job that would make the worlds best managers stumble (not relegation stumble like Arteta, but scrape 4th, 5th or 6th place stumble in the first season)

 

[blaze_of_glory]

I was because we didn't have a number 10 in the team during that period.

What happened when we started winning and playing better? A number 10 came into the side.

It doesn't take a genius to see that the two correlate.

oh we had a #10 available the entire time. But I was told (not sure if by you) that they were extinct in the Modern Game

Also this doesn't all all address my point that no matter how we are doing you think it's just peachy.

 

[EmeryCouldnt]

So your bar is “not playing relegation football”? This is why I don’t understand Arteta fans, you are seemingly aware of the massive job of turning around Arsenal, yet for some reason are convinced some utter novice can turn around this club when this is the type of job that would make the worlds best managers stumble (not relegation stumble like Arteta, but scrape 4th, 5th or 6th place stumble in the first season)

Huh? Why are you putting “not playing relegation football” in quotes like I said that? I didn't say that.

I also didn't support the appointment of Arteta. But I knew that if we did appoint him, we'd have to be patient. I'm not sure people realize how much changing the club's manager destabilizes things. Arteta has stumbled and recovered which was the best I was hoping for when the club chose him. As long as he learns quickly, he could be a great manager eventually.

I think since beating Chelsea we have been playing top 5 football at times. Arteta has proven he is capable of putting together a good team and a good plan. Hopefully he figures out how to do that more consistently.

 

[Baki]

Arteta wouldn't have seen December, let alone the new year, at Stamford Bridge because Chelsea, much as it pains me to say it, are operating in their capacity as a proper football club.

That is something which Arsenal can hardly be recognized as anymore.

Chelsea proves that their approach works. It’s not just about the money. It’s about the ruthless management from the top.

 

[Rex Stone]

I was because we didn't have a number 10 in the team during that period.

What happened when we started winning and playing better? A number 10 came into the side.

It doesn't take a genius to see that the two correlate.

I’d say we’ve had good luck.

Defensive underlying stats look very ropey in this time period and we should’ve been punished much more.

 

[Baki]

The point of him being a novice manager, is why is he getting time though...If you hire someone like that you need to give him time, otherwise what's the point...we don't have Chelsea's money, so that situation is different...I imagine the cup win last season, bought him a season, the board will expect better next year.

Doubt anyone turned on Wenger, tbh...in 2017/2018 we just had the 5th/6th best team in the league, so that' where we finished...Arsène was always good at finishing in the league, where his squad quality should be finishing...can't imagine any of those players in that team turning on him...Kos, Nacho, Ramsey, Wilshere, Giroud, Özil all loved him, there was just better teams than us.

They turned on Unai first chance they got though really

I never understood the “let’s give him some leeway, he’s a novice” mentality here. It’s not like we’re the ones that hired him! We as fans wanted to move on from Wenger because we wanted a manager that can do more and help us achieve a PL title. It looked Wenger could no longer do that. The only benchmark that matters for us fans should be “is this manager doing better than Wenger and have they shown us a path to a PL and CL title in the near future?”. If a manager is not capable of doing that, within the limitations of our club, then they are not the right person for the job. Who gives a duck why they can’t do it (inexperience etc), the bottom line is whether they can do it. No ones gets a pass because they’re a novice. Either you bring us glory or you **** off to a job which better suits you. We aren’t looking for excuses but results.

(FYI, I’ve always thought it was dumb-**** move to hire a novice to lead the biggest rebuild the club has had since the 80s (in its most competitive league ever).

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

I think people like me just need to accept that football fandom has changed. Everything's short term these days.

Doesn't really matter how big a job a managers got on, if there's not a significant improvement in results within 12 months a sizeable portion of the fanbase are going to want to keep on the managerial merry go round until a manager clicks almost instantly. It's just not a suitable mentality for a club like Arsenal in my opinion.

We're not Chelsea, Man Utd or Man City when it comes to financial might. At some point were going to have to give a manager 3 years and say turn this ship around long term and not ask for quick fixes. It doesn't have to be Arteta necessarily, but it has to be someone.

 

[blaze_of_glory]

Nothing wrong with giving a guy time, but in the time he's had so far we've not improved. If anything it's getting worse, results wise. FA Cup notwithstanding of course, that was great and I don't want to over look that.

I guess we'll see where we end up, but if it's below 8th then we're going backwards not forwards. And we all thought 8th was near enough to rock bottom for us last year and that things could only get better from there.

 

[Macho]

We're not Chelsea, Man Utd or Man City when it comes to financial might. At some point were going to have to give a manager 3 years and say turn this ship around long term and not ask for quick fixes. It doesn't have to be Arteta, but it has to be someone.

The thing is if we had the financial might of those clubs Arteta would probably work.

Coming to a club that doesn’t spend like them and bemoaning the players is just never going to work though. I agree we do need a long term manager but for me, he isn’t it.

Cause of Arteta we can’t even sign unpolished diamonds anymore, you have to come fully assembled out the box with low maintenance now. It’s just never going to work with our resources.

 

[Baki]

Huh? Why are you putting “not playing relegation football” in quotes like I said that? I didn't say that.

I also didn't support the appointment of Arteta. But I knew that if we did appoint him, we'd have to be patient. I'm not sure people realize how much changing the club's manager destabilizes things. Arteta has stumbled and recovered which was the best I was hoping for when the club chose him. As long as he learns quickly, he could be a great manager eventually.

I think since beating Chelsea we have been playing top 5 football at times. Arteta has proven he is capable of putting together a good team and a good plan. Hopefully he figures out how to do that more consistently.

Chelsea has just done just fine for years by switching out managers like they are iPhone cases. Also, when your manager has you battling for 13/14th, you’re pretty much at rock bottom and need to change.

If Arteta wants to learn how to be a manager, it shouldn’t be at one of the biggest clubs in the world. We shouldn’t be his ducking training wheels. He should go learn the trade at a lower league club and come back when he’s closed to the finished business. We can’t financially afford to be out of the top 6.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

The thing is if we had the financial might of those clubs Arteta would probably work.

Coming to a club that doesn’t spend like them and bemoaning the players is just never going to work though. I agree we do need a long term manager but for me, he isn’t it.

Cause of Arteta we can’t even sign unpolished diamonds anymore, you have to come fully assembled out the box with low maintenance now. It’s just never going to work with our resources.

I largely agree with you.

I'm not sure on Arteta not being able to work with unpolished diamonds though.

Okay he didn't sign the likes of Saka, KT, ESR, Holding etc but I'd argue he's done a pretty good job in moulding these guys and lifting their level in his time here and they're certainly not fully developed players yet, even Saka.

 

[El Duderino]

You posted stats showing us in 5th though...? And that's with other teams struggling as well.

My point is that no matter how we do you say it's as good as it can be. You were saying similar stuff when we were losing every game.

Remember the goal posts being move from "With Partey we can be in the mix for top 4, at least top 6" to "the players are not good enough".

We're now in the "Europa was not important/10th place is a trophy" stage.