The rewritting history thread, or how Mikel/Arsenal turned it around. Or didn't. What even IS real?

[Makingtrax]

Please calm down. Your obsession is unhealthy.
He lost out on the title to Leicester!! He failed to qualify for Europe for consecutive seasons or win the league for many years. Was past his prime for a long while since 2005. He was removed because of it. As any other club would do. Get over it and accept it.

Lol. Is that you DT? How was prison?

 

[grange]

Please calm down. Your obsession is unhealthy.
He lost out on the title to Leicester!! He failed to qualify for Europe for consecutive seasons or win the league for many years. Was past his prime for a long while since 2005. He was removed because of it. As any other club would do. Get over it and accept it.

Can you imagine this middle aged man approaching Wenger at the beach for a selfie? Tracked his plane and everything just for a "chance" meet up.

 

[Big Poppa]

Please calm down. Your obsession is unhealthy.
He lost out on the title to Leicester!! He failed to qualify for Europe for consecutive seasons or win the league for many years. Was past his prime for a long while since 2005. He was removed because of it. As any other club would do. Get over it and accept it.

It is you sounding obsessed. Wenger is long gone but what he did for this club is the reason he just got inducted into the PL hall of fame.

The only club competing with Abramovich domestically until the Sheikh arrived at City was United.

The most successful team in English football history, Liverpool won the league zero times during Wenger’s time.

Leicester deserved their title that season. That’s how this gig works.

 

[Makingtrax]

But it's generally accepted that Arsène got a raw deal and that's why people hold a grudge isn't?

If the standard was unfair you don't hold every subsequent manager to the same unfair standard to prove some kind of weird point based on bitterness.

But I'm not trying to make out Arteta is a legend or anything, neither are Theo or Keown and they've played for games for us than Xhaka.

All I'm saying is that overall Arteta has had a good season and that it's pretty silly to be lining up replacements for him or calling for his head if he doesn't win the PL or CL next season.

There are definitely facets of his management game that need to be improved upon though.

The raw deal for Arsène argument, so don’t apply it to Arteta, has a hole in it that causes it to slowly sink. And that is the massive financial and fan support that Arsène never had from the club. Arsène‘s net spend (ie money from club funds for players) was less in 22 years than Arteta’s had in 4, and the fans are singing their new anthem instead of paying for planes to disrupt the players.

Nevertheless Arsène got 4th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd before that campaign started and Arteta’s got 8th, 8th, 5th, 2nd . . . and you’re arguing for more time. I’m happy for Arteta to carry on, as I was for Wenger. But you guys who were sh!tting all over Arsène are stretching it with your league is getting tougher to justify your change of heart.

 

[Blood on the Tracks]

The raw deal for Arsène argument, so don’t apply it to Arteta, has a hole in it that causes it to slowly sink. And that is the massive financial and fan support that Arsène never had from the club. Arsène‘s net spend (ie money from club funds for players) was less in 22 years than Arteta’s had in 4, and the fans are singing their new anthem instead of paying for planes to disrupt the players.

Nevertheless Arsène got 4th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd before that campaign started and Arteta’s got 8th, 8th, 5th, 2nd . . . and you’re arguing for more time. I’m happy for Arteta to carry on, as I was for Wenger. But you guys who were sh!tting all over Arsène are stretching it with your league is getting tougher to justify your change of heart.

But don't you see the flaw in your argument. Arsène never got the financial backing Arteta has, totally agree. Why am I supposed to hold that against Arteta? By your logic every manager should get treated poorly by the owners / fans just because Arsène did, out of some misguided sense of revenge or equality.

But this is the funny thing, I was pro Arsène until the very end. I just listened to sensible Arsène outers ( and they did exist. It wasn't all frothing at the mouth loons) and could see to a degree why they felt the way they did even though I didn't agree with 80% of it.

You're cherry picking stats again. High net spent for Arteta, yes, we all agree on that and he has to show that money is being used productively to justify his position. I agree on that too.

Where are we in squad cost in the PL though, 6th or so? It matters the base that you're working from not just the recent outlay. You have to look at the whole picture not magnify certain statistics that you think aid your overall point and ignore the larger picture.

It's why Man City's recent net spend is deceptive, they bought a great squad over the years for obscene money and are now selling high value players to buy other high value players, tinkering with the squad. When you reach their level you're not going to be net spending £250-300m a window. We're at a totally different stage of squad development.

As we can see from Man Utd over the past decade or so and Chelsea currently just throwing money at problems is no guarantee of (quick) success. There needs to be a structure and plan and improvements aren't always linear or quick to see. It's been a rocky ride under Arteta at times and some of it has been of his own making, no-one can deny that.

So I agree that expectations under Arteta should be fairly high considering the financial backing and support he's got the past 24 months or so.

Do I think he met those expectations this season? Nope. I actually think he exceeded them by pretty much any sensible metric available and Arsène being mistreated around a decade ago isn't relevant to that point.

 

[Makingtrax]

But don't you see the flaw in your argument. Arsène never got the financial backing Arteta has, totally agree. Why am I supposed to hold that against Arteta? By your logic every manager should get treated poorly by the owners / fans just because Arsène did, out of some misguided sense of revenge.

But this is the funny thing, I was pro Arsène until the very end. I just listened to sensible Arsène outers and could see to a degree why they felt the way they did even though I didn't agree with 80% of it.

You're cherry picking stats again. High net spent for Arteta, yes, we all agree on that and he has to show that money is being used productively to justify his position. I agree on that too.

Where are we in squad cost in the PL though, 6th or so? It matters the base that you're working from not just the recent outlay. You have to look at the whole picture not magnify certain statistics that you think aid your overall point and ignore the larger picture.

It's why Man City's recent net spend is deceptive, they bought a great squad over the years for obscene money and are now selling high value players to buy other high value players, tinkering with the squad. When you reach their level you're not going to be net spending £250-300m a window. We're at a totally different stage of squad development.

As we can see from Man Utd over the past decade or so and Chelsea currently just throwing money at problems is no guarantee of success. There needs to be a structure and plan and improvements aren't always linear or quick to see. It's been a rocky ride under Arteta at times, no-one can deny that.

So I agree that expectations under Arteta should be fairly high considering the financial backing and support he's got the past 24 months or so.

Do I think he met those expectations this season? Nope. I actually think he exceeded them by pretty much any sensible metric available and Arsène being mistreated around a decade ago isn't relevant to that point.

I was with you for most of that bro. Mistreating Arsène doesn’t mean you should mistreat Arteta, granted. But you shot yourself in the foot by saying that you agreed with sensible Arsène Outers. There were no sensible Arsène outers! If you think 8th, 8th, 5th 2nd is exceeding metrics and spending, then 4th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd when the purse strings were slackened, definitely was, considering the very low base Arsène was coming from. There’s no two ways about this. What you’ve added about squad cost is exactly right. It takes time to develop.

I think the stats show excellent progress for both Arsène and Arteta in these two 4 year periods. What p!sses me off, is one is considered superb and other sent fans into an abusive spiral. And posters like @IrishGooner93 are still repeating that drivel, even today, after all we’ve learnt.

 

[IrishGooner93]

I was with you for most of that bro. Mistreating Arsène doesn’t mean you should mistreat Arteta, granted. But you shot yourself in the foot by saying that you agreed with sensible Arsène Outers. There were no sensible Arsène outers! If you think 8th, 8th, 5th 2nd is exceeding metrics and spending, then 4th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd when the purse strings were slackened, definitely was, considering the very low base Arsène was coming from. There’s no two ways about this. What you’ve added about squad cost is exactly right. It takes time to develop.

I think the stats show excellent progress for both Arsène and Arteta in these two 4 year periods. What p!sses me off, is one is considered superb and other sent fans into an abusive spiral. And posters like @IrishGooner93 are still repeating that drivel, even today, after all we’ve learnt.

I'm not huge Arteta fan. But these last few seasons have been about rebuilding the squad and club after Wenger and Emery had us down outside the top 4 and a squad filled with inadequate players and many with poor attitudes. You're not comparing like for like and youre cherry pick your stats and points.
You're an extremely misleading poster and have been for some while. I don't know whether it's intentional or You're just an illogical person.

 

[IrishGooner93]

Lol. Is that you DT? How was prison?

Thats funny ,...cause I was starting to think I'm talking to TY.

 

[Makingtrax]

You're not comparing like for like and youre cherry pick your stats and points.

Such as? Unlike you, I applied the same criteria to both Arsène and Arteta and found that they both showed excellent progress in the 4 years I compared.

 

[IrishGooner93]

Such as?

Where do I start, ....for one comparing Wenger and Artetas league positions. As I previously mentioned, one manager is in the middle of a rebuilding process due to the failures of latter Wenger/Emery era. Different stages of the team and clubs cycle.

 

[Makingtrax]

Where do I start, ....for one comparing Wenger and Artetas league positions. As I previously mentioned, one manager is in the middle of a rebuilding process due to the failures of latter Wenger/Emery era. Different stages of the team and clubs cycle.

That’s where I disagree. Arteta in 2019 and Arsène in 2012 we’re both starting from a low base. Arsène had received no money at all from club funds for transfers. His net spend from 2004 was zero, nothing, zilch. All transfers paid for from sales.

Both Arteta and Arsène suddenly received an injection of capital from a starting base to rebuild a squad. The only difference was Arteta got a lot more.

Next?

 

[GoonerJay24]

What's so funny about my post @GoonerJay24

I'm just in disbelief about the PR surrounding this guy and some posts put out on here, the agenda.

We've progressed a little but still no different to the level under Wenger, apart from spending more money.

Wenger was abused in 2016 for finishing 2nd with a more injured team and competed in FA Cup and CL.

 

[SA Gunner]

I'm just in disbelief about the PR surrounding this guy and some posts put out on here, the agenda.

We've progressed a little but still no different to the level under Wenger, apart from spending more money.

Wenger was abused in 2016 for finishing 2nd with a more injured team and competed in FA Cup and CL.

Bro, those are actual statistics posted, not PR.

Sure the guy has good PR, but why dismiss all good analysis given, even if they are the hard numbers?

Also. Why oh why do we continuously have to drag Arsène Wenger into all of this? Why?

We need to learn that you dont have to hate Arteta because he is been given the back up and support that Wenger was not given. Its childish to behave this way.

 

[Makingtrax]

I'm just in disbelief about the PR surrounding this guy and some posts put out on here, the agenda.

We've progressed a little but still no different to the level under Wenger, apart from spending more money.

Wenger was abused in 2016 for finishing 2nd with a more injured team and competed in FA Cup and CL.

This. We’re back where we were with Arsène, when it wasn’t good enough for most fans, except Arteta has a lot more financial backing from the club and a huge cult following. from fans.

Personally, I’m very happy that Arsenal is back in the top 4 and Champions League. Lets see where it goes next because this is the crunch year. Will the progress continue and we actually win something, or will Arteta hit a ceiling and we end up 3rd or 4th going out of the CL in the round of 16, or worse. If it’s the former everybody will be happy, if it’s the latter I’ll be interested to see what excuses fans come up with for why it’s different this time . . . but lets hope it’s nothing to do with that boll*cks about the league getting harder.

 

[SuperMikel]

I'm just in disbelief about the PR surrounding this guy and some posts put out on here, the agenda.

We've progressed a little but still no different to the level under Wenger, apart from spending more money.

Wenger was abused in 2016 for finishing 2nd with a more injured team and competed in FA Cup and CL.

As amazing as Leicester City winning the league was, it was the worst team to have won the PL. Where as this City team is one of the best, if not the best.

I dont believe we should celebrate finishing second. But its clear we are in a better position now than we were in 2016 under Wenger. Even the Kroenke's are doing a better job

 

[GoonerJay24]

As amazing as Leicester City winning the league was, it was the worst team to have won the PL. Where as this City team is one of the best, if not the best.

I dont believe we should celebrate finishing second. But its clear we are in a better position now than we were in 2016 under Wenger. Even the Kroenke's are doing a better job

Yes but in 2016 we had way more injuries, why is this never considered in relation to that season?

Anyway let's forget the past and hope we continue progressing. It's just this Arteta agenda amazes me.

 

[A_G]

Yes but in 2016 we had way more injuries, why is this never considered in relation to that season?

Anyway let's forget the past and hope we continue progressing. It's just this Arteta agenda amazes me.

Can’t believe we had so many injuries relying on Wilshere, Rosicky, Arteta and Flamini for depth. Never could’ve seen that coming.

 

[Tnegs]

Bet if Wenger was our manager this season certain man here saying Arteta hasn’t done anything great would be posting charts and graphs and spend vs position analytics proving we have just had our greatest Emirates season and how we need to back the manager.

 

[Macho]

It's a shame this wasn't done sooner by either Wenger or Emery.

They didn't have Partey.

Wenger acknowledged himself years ago this was his best position and outright said Xhaka is not a great tackler. He knew that and didn't play him there, so you have to ask yourself why that is.

 

[teamsoutheast]

They didn't have Partey.

Wenger acknowledged himself years ago this was his best position and outright said Xhaka is not a great tackler. He knew that and didn't play him there, so you have to ask yourself why that is.

And the balance wasn't right at all that season. Arguably you could say we could have played Elneny in the Partey role. We had a midfield of Ramsey, Xhaka, Wilshere, Elneny. Only Elneny was a 'holding' midfielder from that bunch.