The rewritting history thread, or how Mikel/Arsenal turned it around. Or didn't. What even IS real?

[AbouCuéllar]

"Arteta doesn't play youth". Hahah, biggest joke there ever has been!

Arteta went into the season with Nelson & Marquinhos as squad players to depend on. He trusted them enough for it, rather than paying over the top (like over 50 million or even more for Mudryk). People here didn't trust own youth, but mostly complained about the lack of depth.

So it's bad when Arteta trusts own youth like this, but still somehow he doesn't trust or play youth in the view of many.

AM is a weird place, keeps you on your toes guessing what the heck is going on, and what's the next development. That's part of why we all love it!

I hope Nelson keeps trying things more bravely, but intelligently. He has contract until 2023, but looks like a true gunner, so no worries there. It's a nice situation for him to play for a contract, wherever that is. Even at Arsenal if he fires it up like he can.

Yeah, it's really weird, tbh. He plays with the youngest team in the premier league, he names an extremely young captain, he's clearly very anxious to give youth products like Nelson and Nketiah every chance he can if they prove deserving (pretty reliable sources say that they always planned to keep Nelson this summer; obviously some of that might've been club mouthpieces, but I think it's clear the club saw a difference in him in terms of work ethic and dedication, from Arteta's comments, when he came back this summer and decided that if they were unable to find a winger they liked for the right price they would count on Nelson)...

He strikes me as an eminently fair manager, honestly, and I really don't care if that sounds controversial on this forum (I know it does), because it strikes me as totally true. If you are planned around and you are showing the level required in training he will give you a fair chance as long as he can without it affecting the team's success unduly, this has been true in every case, from Marí, to Özil at the beginning (even Torreira was given a chance at the beginning, as well as Mustafi), to Nelson at the beginning and now, to ESR, to Willian, to Cedric, to Tavares, to Lokonga, and of course to the one who he is perceived as having treated badly here, Pepe, who is really a perfect example of him being fair to a player, Pepe when he was performing was always in the team, we even started last season with him as a starter after his hot run at the end of 20-21, until it became clear that ESR and finally Martinelli were better options.

How many times have we thought a career of a player has been over here before he has brought him back to an important role in the team, after being impressed in training? This has happened to varying degrees with Nketiah (twice, first after coming back from Leeds), Elneny, Nelson, ESR (I said back in October of 2020 he was my secret hope for that season, but no one at that point really thought he had much of a future here), the list goes on...

He is exactly what I want in my manager in terms of squad usage; demanding in terms of the level required and the necessity to adhere to the team's tactical instructions and philosophy, demanding in terms of the commitment level, but incredibly fair and open-minded, and with a long-term vision always in mind.

It's so sad that such a shame that so many weird and frankly unfair and incorrect narratives like this sprung up out of the anger and in many case downright dislike for him during our period of struggle in the past couple seasons, they've been repeated so many times that a very big faction believes them without even really questioning their foundation.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

One hopes Nelson's performance gives us a bit more perspective and humility. Knowing that it is not correct to write off our rotation players, because we dont like what they are doing when we see them play.

We all have no idea of what's going on behind the scenes, yet we want to confidently speak about players and whether they are finished or not.

A lot of you look like fools today after being completely dogwalked by Xhaka, these streets never forgot you. Have opinions by all means, but dont make yourselves look stupid by boldly "speaking facts".

Great post, and this is a great reminder from today, for myself very much included. I wasn't impressed with Nelson's full debut in Europa nor did I have much hope for him after not exactly tearing it up in a league where even players who tear it up often don't make it at higher levels (Gakpo has a bit the looks of this, Lozano, Neres, Bergwijn, Promes, the list goes on).

But when we make these kind of posts we are always just picking up clues and comparing them with what we have seen with the great percentage of player trajectories, it's never really case specific, and all that really matters is what's going on in training and with their dedication to the sport behind the scenes, most of which we can't see at all unless we are fed crumbs and people comment on it (as Arteta has).

It's just one game and Nelson still might not make it here but in 55 minutes he's greatly changed what we think of his likely career path from here. As I say in the post above we've seen it before here. Gotta be humble with our opinions, especially on something as trivial as an internet football forum, and quick to admit when we were wrong--in my case, now with giving up on Nelson too fast, and this past year with doubting that Saliba was really at such a brutal level as people were saying he was--it makes so much more fun reading and easier to really respect poster's opinions when people can do that.

----

One moment today that really had me dreaming about Nelson was in the 85th-90th minute where he showed a really fantastic burst and close control to evade a bit of pressing right in the middle third, in the inside right channel. I initially thought it was Jesus because I haven't really seen that kind of smooth acceleration and ball carrying to avoid pressers in that area of the pitch from Nelson before for Arsenal. As @Geofranco said his movement has looked really robotic for a while, that's what it looked to me for Feyenoord, where when I watched him in that final I thought he looked frankly awful.

What a story it would be if he can make good on his potential. I think a lot of us spent a few years there with the clear idea that Nelson was going to be a massive part of the future of Arsenal, much like Saka actually turned out to be. Kinda amazing to think he's still a young boy at 22 (almost 23) and there's still time for him to figure it out (though at 23 you should be getting to be close to your top levels as a winger). He wouldn't be the first big talent to struggle a bit to find his way in terms of dedication and adaptation to top level football only to later figure it out, I'm guessing? I'm trying to think of comparisons for trajectory, Nkunku, Diaby, and Gouiri have some similarities and also some dissimilarities...maybe someone else can think of a better precedent.

 

[razörist]

"Arteta doesn't play youth". Hahah, biggest joke there ever has been!

Arteta went into the season with Nelson & Marquinhos as squad players to depend on. He trusted them enough for it, rather than paying over the top (like over 50 million or even more for Mudryk). People here didn't trust own youth, but mostly complained about the lack of depth.

So it's bad when Arteta trusts own youth like this, but still somehow he doesn't trust or play youth in the view of many.

AM is a weird place, keeps you on your toes guessing what the heck is going on, and what's the next development. That's part of why we all love it!

I hope Nelson keeps trying things more bravely, but intelligently. He has contract until 2023, but looks like a true gunner, so no worries there. It's a nice situation for him to play for a contract, wherever that is. Even at Arsenal if he fires it up like he can.

1 game lol should name u hurtin instead of drippin calm down

 

[Trilly]

Yeah, it's really weird, tbh. He plays with the youngest team in the premier league, he names an extremely young captain, he's clearly very anxious to give youth products like Nelson and Nketiah every chance he can if they prove deserving (pretty reliable sources say that they always planned to keep Nelson this summer; obviously some of that might've been club mouthpieces, but I think it's clear the club saw a difference in him in terms of work ethic and dedication, from Arteta's comments, when he came back this summer and decided that if they were unable to find a winger they liked for the right price they would count on Nelson)...

He strikes me as an eminently fair manager, honestly, and I really don't care if that sounds controversial on this forum (I know it does), because it strikes me as totally true. If you are planned around and you are showing the level required in training he will give you a fair chance as long as he can without it affecting the team's success unduly, this has been true in every case, from Marí, to Özil at the beginning (even Torreira was given a chance at the beginning, as well as Mustafi), to Nelson at the beginning and now, to ESR, to Willian, to Cedric, to Tavares, to Lokonga, and of course to the one who he is perceived as having treated badly here, Pepe, who is really a perfect example of him being fair to a player, Pepe when he was performing was always in the team, we even started last season with him as a starter after his hot run at the end of 20-21, until it became clear that ESR and finally Martinelli were better options.

How many times have we thought a career of a player has been over here before he has brought him back to an important role in the team, after being impressed in training? This has happened to varying degrees with Nketiah (twice, first after coming back from Leeds), Elneny, Nelson, ESR (I said back in October of 2020 he was my secret hope for that season, but no one at that point really thought he had much of a future here), the list goes on...

He is exactly what I want in my manager in terms of squad usage; demanding in terms of the level required and the necessity to adhere to the team's tactical instructions and philosophy, demanding in terms of the commitment level, but incredibly fair and open-minded, and with a long-term vision always in mind.

It's so sad that such a shame that so many weird and frankly unfair and incorrect narratives like this sprung up out of the anger and in many case downright dislike for him during our period of struggle in the past couple seasons, they've been repeated so many times that a very big faction believes them without even really questioning their foundation.

He earned that reputation when he was buying Willian’s, dropping Saka for FA cup finals and extending old players while limiting opportunities to younger ones. It wasn’t created out of thin air.

I could have told you that before you typed out this essay

 

[AbouCuéllar]

He earned that reputation when he was buying Willian’s, dropping Saka for FA cup finals and extending old players while limiting opportunities to younger ones. It wasn’t created out of thin air.

I could have told you that before you typed out this essay

He dropped Saka for an FA cup final at 19, and played in him how many games? I guess you guys would tell me Arteta has had no hand in Saka (or Martinelli’s) development into borderline world class players and that he just got lucky cause Unai Em*ry gave them their debuts.

Willian was a miscalculation of his and Edu’s, it’s clear, but it’s also clear what they were trying to do—and I think the necessity of it (reshaping the dressing room and professionalism culture at the club, with responsible pros to help the younger players and the club progress in the right environment, if it’s not clear—and how quick he was to realise his mistake and bring ESR and then Ode into the team.

 

[Trilly]

1 game lol should name u hurtin instead of drippin calm down

Not just him, there’s a new group of posters who don’t have much to do now the Arteta wars are dying down so they just cry about everything instead.

 

[Trilly]

He dropped Saka for an FA cup final at 19, and played in him how many games? I guess you guys would tell me Arteta has had no hand in Saka (or Martinelli’s) development into borderline world class players and that he just got lucky cause Unai Em*ry gave them their debuts.

Willian was a miscalculation of his and Edu’s, it’s clear, but it’s also clear what they were trying to do—and I think the necessity of it (reshaping the dressing room and professionalism culture at the club, with responsible pros to help the younger players and the club progress in the right environment, if it’s not clear—and how quick he was to realise his mistake and bring ESR and then Ode into the team.

I’m not really trying to get into all that, but the him not liking youth thing hasn’t come out of thin air and no amount of revisionism will change that.

Willian being a mistake or not doesn’t change that it happened, we were all here for the period before the youth process kicked off.

I just don’t think it’s fair on groups who held that view, nor is it honest posting to try and make out certain things were completely made up.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

I’m not really trying to get into all that, but the him not liking youth thing hasn’t come out of thin air and no amount of revisionism will change that.

Willian being a mistake or not doesn’t change that it happened, we were all here for the period before the youth process kicked off.

I just don’t think it’s fair on groups who held that view, nor is it honest posting to try and make out certain things were completely made up.

I mean, I didn't say it was made up, I said it came out of the frustration at our struggle phase of the process and often downright dislike for God teta.

Made up and not well thought out / a false narrative is not the same thing.

Anyways, I agree about not wanting to get into all of this.

@Halend yeah it is Take the ball, pass the ball. Good, quick watch, tbh, done by MediaPro here in Spain so a good look at Barça and that era without the typical romanticised Hollywood crap you can get sometimes from the outside.

 

[razörist]

Not just him, there’s a new group of posters who don’t have much to do now the Arteta wars are dying down so they just cry about everything instead.

Its like they have forgotten the CL in 3 years plan. Signing washed players. Man only started playing youth when he didn’t have a choice. ESR was right there and he was playing Willian. ESR saved his career, turned all around once he started playing him at #10. Then Arteta figured out he’d get more time if he signed young players so the CL in 3 years plan was dropped for the kids plan.

The streets remember.

 

[El Duderino]

Its like they have forgotten the CL in 3 years plan. Signing washed players. Man only started playing youth when he didn’t have a choice. ESR was right there and he was playing Willian. ESR saved his career, turned all around once he started playing him at #10. Then Arteta figured out he’d get more time if he signed young players so the CL in 3 years plan was dropped for the kids plan.

The streets remember.

Nothing wrong with course correcting and being happy we did and that we are actually getting the results.

People were begging him to play the kids during that awful run and he trusted his senior players, it's what 90% of managers would do.

Willian got injured and ESR came into the team. There was an element of luck to it, the rest was the club trusting Arteta would turn it around eventually and giving him the money and a proper platform to go along with it.

It worked out in the end, at least so far. Don't know why history has to be rewritten like that.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

Its like they have forgotten the CL in 3 years plan. Signing washed players. Man only started playing youth when he didn’t have a choice. ESR was right there and he was playing Willian. ESR saved his career, turned all around once he started playing him at #10. Then Arteta figured out he’d get more time if he signed young players so the CL in 3 years plan was dropped for the kids plan.

The streets remember.

Lot of interpretation here and re-writing of history to save face. ESR was injured at the beginning of 2020-21 season and was gaining fitness. He was inserted into the first team a lot earlier than people expected, no one was honestly calling out for him to play ESR at that point, as much as you want to re-write history (reality is people were calling for Willock, which he did try, as Willock was fully fit, and it didn't work at all).

I remember saying in November 2020 that ESR getting fit and coming into my team was my secret hope for the season (as I was infuriated we hadn't signed a 10 or anything resembling a creative player to link midfield and attack in the middle of the park). It was crickets. No one really cared about ESR at that point except for the usual suspects who follow the youth closely.

edit: Emile Smith Rowe: The Croy-10 Cruyff

You can see the post and discussion there. Very few people calling for him to play, many not, and the discussion was not a particularly active one. @Idiotologue only one calling strongly for him to play, and a couple of weeks later he did, after having a few weeks of full fitness.

 

[samspade]

Without that this football just isn't possible. The best managers and the best football minds know how to differentiate between what mistakes are acceptable and part of the process and what ones are not. I'm delighted we have a manager from this school, who follows a similar process, from his comments.

This is a key point.
There's a temptation to make this into an emotional argument as risk taking is something that makes us feel emotional, and the language that is most likely to affect us as individuals being asked to take risks is emotional language. Hence the line from Guardiola-- 'you must learn to play football with courage'. Risk taking is also closely related to what many of us consider beautiful football which is also an emotive concept.

But there is a cold and calculating analysis that lies behind it. It echos the discussion that occurred in the Saliba thread regarding his mistakes vs Gabriel's in that game against Leeds. The mistakes from Saliba came from risk-taking in areas management recognised as high rewards situations. The mistakes from Gabriel have largely been unsolicited. i.e. mistakes of the type Saliba has made are acceptable and will always be present in some sense because of what we're asking him to do and because, over time and given his quality, the reward outweighs the risk. If mistakes of the type Gabriel has been making continue or even increase then these are not acceptable types of mistakes as there is largely no upside to these situations, the risks aren't being taken in the right areas to begin with before you even get to the part about whether the particular risk has paid off or not.

 

[boonthegoon]

Its like they have forgotten the CL in 3 years plan. Signing washed players. Man only started playing youth when he didn’t have a choice. ESR was right there and he was playing Willian. ESR saved his career, turned all around once he started playing him at #10. Then Arteta figured out he’d get more time if he signed young players so the CL in 3 years plan was dropped for the kids plan.

The streets remember.

ESR was injured that season and was regaining his fitness. He wasn't "right there"
The season arteta joined, he started nketiah ahead of Lacazette (auba was lw) continuously until the covid break.
Arteta was the one who finally played saka in attack (instead of lb) continuously.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

ESR was injured that season and was regaining his fitness. He wasn't "right there"
The season arteta joined, he started nketiah ahead of Lacazette (auba was lw) continuously until the covid break.
Arteta was the one who finally played saka in attack (instead of lb) continuously.

Also moved Saka to RW, recognising that a player of his precocious decision making and combinative play level should be facing the play.

Arteta has had little hand in Saka, ESR, and Martinelli's development, it's just pure coincidence that three young talents have all flourished and brought their game up another level under him, he's lucky he walked into a situation where King Unai had given them their debuts and prepared for him such amazing talent. Because fantastic talents at 18 always turn into fantastic players, just look around.

 

[dka1]

Lot of interpretation here and re-writing of history to save face. ESR was injured at the beginning of 2020-21 season and was gaining fitness. He was inserted into the first team a lot earlier than people expected, no one was honestly calling out for him to play ESR at that point, as much as you want to re-write history (reality is people were calling for Willock, which he did try, as Willock was fully fit, and it didn't work at all).

Ok I've kept quiet about this but Imma just have to come out and say this. I keep hearing this talk as if ESR was out for most of the period from August till December. What I remember is that he was back in full training in very early October and I didn't hear that he got injured again (if I missed something then please correct me).

In fact I dug up this page:

Team news: Dani Ceballos and Emile Smith Rowe

And the problem isn't that he wasn't starting for us, the issue is that we wasn't getting very much first team appearances at all, not even on the bench.

I feel like people are forgetting what happened with guys like ESR, it clearly wasn't just that he was injured, Arteta wasn't selecting him when he could've atleast tried him given our dearth of options at AM.

I'll quote myself; I made this post on the 22nd of October (this was when I was still quite strongly backing Arteta) because I was confused af as to why our youngsters weren't even making the bench for our EL game against Rapid Vienna:

Ngl I put on the game late and seeing no Nelson, No AMN starting and then no Smith Rowe on the bench?

Kolasinac at LB, I bet our U13s prospect would be better (exaggeration obviously).

Plus you're telling me Saliba can't play at this level? Hmm not impressive.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

Ok I've kept quiet about this but Imma just have to come out and say this. I keep hearing this talk as if ESR was out for most of the period from August till December. What I remember is that he was back in full training in very early October and I didn't hear that he got injured again (if I missed something then please correct me).

In fact I dug up this page:

Team news: Dani Ceballos and Emile Smith Rowe

And the problem isn't that he wasn't starting for us, the issue is that we wasn't getting very much first team appearances at all, not even on the bench.

I feel like people are forgetting what happened with guys like ESR, it clearly wasn't just that he was injured, Arteta wasn't selecting him when he could've atleast tried him given our dearth of options at AM.

I'll quote myself; I made this post on the 22nd of October (this was when I was still quite strongly backing Arteta) because I was confused af as to why our youngsters weren't even making the bench for our EL game against Rapid Vienna:

Back in full training does not mean back to match fitness...they are totally different things. Transfermarkt has him injured until 25 October. (Remember, Smith Rowe was a young, injury prone player, caution obviously was the expected route with him) He was first named on the subs bench on 26/11 and played 15 min. He got 27 minutes in the Europa League game a week after and then started the one a week after before being inserted against Chelsea on the 26th as a starter in Premier League.

Again, you can interpret things however you like, because we don't have the insider information, but it looks like a quite normal ramping up to match fitness of an injury prone young player who has barely been involved in the side and is in his first months working with a new manager at the premier league level. Given the injury to expect him to be inserted before he actually was, in my humble opinion, is a rather extreme and somewhat unrealistic opinion / interpretation, but, as I say, in the end we all have our interpretations. Given what we've seen since, and Arteta's knack for evaluating player's talent level, I think my interpretation is more realistic than the other one, honestly, but it is what it is, and for many reasons, including pride, many people don't want to revisit this and think about it in a different way than the way they have already interpreted it and created their narratives.

We've been suppressed, told by moderation not to gloat which was a release many of us were undeniably looking forward to, we haven't been allowed drive the point of old arguments home; outers and doubters have been let off the hook, haven't had to say they were wrong, haven't had to eat their flawed analysis, so we are now embittered.

Drippin has been warned and had a thread ban for saying 'makintrash' and trax continues to bring up Wenger in the Arteta thread when others have been warned for derailing it while claiming that Jesus is responsible for our tactics.

It's obvious if you actually want to see it.

Top post, not to mention the amount of abuse we got for holding and espousing of certain beliefs...the amount of clown reactions and laughs I got for still backing Arteta and saying not to call him the devil, a useless incompetent, etc. after three games and that we would still get top 6 or maybe even challenge for top 4 (posts that, in retrospect, were even cautious in their optimism, as it was more than "maybe" challenging for top 4). Or the parties thrown for posters like Camus for posts that are actually, like, not good, and totally inaccurate, if you read them back...there was an obvious groupthink phenomenon and a desire in that group to ridicule opposing beliefs that turned out to be better than theirs, which is now too hard to admit...oh well. With how easy it is to admit when you are wrong about something, if you don't have too much pride or take things too seriously, or give credit to people who have had stronger arguments than yours...something I really rate in posters and humans in general.

 

[Trilly]

I mean, I didn't say it was made up, I said it came out of the frustration at our struggle phase of the process and often downright dislike for Arteta.

Okay fair enough, as with most things the truth is usually somewhere in the middle of both side’s perspective. I spelled Mikel’s surname properly for you btw

 

[AbouCuéllar]

Okay fair enough, as with most things the truth is usually somewhere in the middle of both side’s perspective. I spelled Mikel’s surname properly for you btw

Hmm, the correct spelling is autocorrected by the forum settings so I have to put in a space, the other accepted spelling of his surname by Oxford and the RAE, Basque God, I've control F'd but don't see in your post.

 

[Trilly]

We've been suppressed, told by moderation not to gloat which was a release many of us were undeniably looking forward to, we haven't been allowed drive the point of old arguments home; outers and doubters have been let off the hook, haven't had to say they were wrong, haven't had to eat their flawed analysis, so we are now embittered.

Drippin has been warned and had a thread ban for saying 'makintrash' and trax continues to bring up Wenger in the Arteta thread when others have been warned for derailing it while claiming that Jesus is responsible for our tactics.

It's obvious if you actually want to see it.

Nobody stopped you from gloating, even before the mods got involved you had weaks of gloating but it didn’t prove as satisfying as you had hoped…why?

Probably because most of the Arteta-out guys wanted him out because they weren’t happy with his performance. Once that improved majority of us stopped posting in the thread or held our hands up and said good job. A lot of us set our expectations before the season even began and seeing as those have been met, there’s been no reason to kick up a fuss in his thread.

With all the above the gloating wasn’t as satisfying as was probably anticipated which lead to things getting personal, or your group all piling on 1-2 posters to try and get your kicks. That’s when the mods got involved. It’s not a coincidence that a majority of that group are now forming Cry-Mania

 

[drippin]

Its like they have forgotten the CL in 3 years plan. Signing washed players. Man only started playing youth when he didn’t have a choice. ESR was right there and he was playing Willian. ESR saved his career, turned all around once he started playing him at #10. Then Arteta figured out he’d get more time if he signed young players so the CL in 3 years plan was dropped for the kids plan.

The streets remember.

ESR had a bad shoulder injury keeping him out for a long time. He also had many recurring injuries before that, and after that.

ESR played his first U23 game after the shoulder injury basically 6th November 2020. Before that he played 17th October U23 against United, but afterwards missed a couple games so it's likely the injury renewed.

His second U23 game was 20 November 2020. After that Arteta played him some in UEL games, until finally on Boxing Day he started him against Chelsea.

So there's basically maybe 5 EPL games he could have featured him in, but didn't. And there is the question if you should throw a young player after long absence from games, straight into EPL.

So he eased him in with those three UEL games until 10th December 2020, and after that he was twice on the bench without featuring, and one match he missed totally. So that's basically three games where he didn't use him when he could have already used him before the Chelsea game.

What's really interesting is that ESR missed one of those games in between the bench appearances, and wasn't with the U23 squad either. So was he somehow injured?

Wow, shocking really, isn't it? ESR might not have featured earlier because of a small injury, which isn't mentioned anywhere as far as I know.

Emile Smith Rowe - Detailed stats

These are the detailed performance data of FC Arsenal player Emile Smith Rowe. The website contains a statistic about the performance data of the player.

www.transfermarkt.com