The rewritting history thread, or how Mikel/Arsenal turned it around. Or didn't. What even IS real?

[drippin]

Edit: Ok let's see if I can get it right this time (formatting problem).

I'm not hammering on about an irrelevant date, I'm going by the information on the Arsenal site as he wasn't reported as injured again. Unless I'm mistaken usually that information would have come out had ESR gotten injured again.

But examining @drippin's post, he played for the U23 first on 17th of October, then on the 6th of November then on the 20th of November again.

After that he gets minutes in the EL from the 26th of Nov onward so we can conclude without reasonable doubt, he's fully fit by then and ready for the first team.

In between the 17th of October and 6th of November, he is shown in most of the pictures before games in full training with the first team, to me it doesn't look like there's a set back; at most maybe they were being cautious about his recovery.

As for your last paragraph, again you're not convincing me it was a prudent "ramping up of minutes" when he went from 0 minutes in the league, to starting against Chelsea in what was a desperate situation for Arteta.

That's not a "prudent ramping up of minutes under a new manager, in a new style of play, at a new level, coming off a long injury after a covid break", that is desperation, pure and simple. Edit: But again, like it's not necessarily bad that he was desperate, because his decision born from desperation worked, well. However I don't honestly think ESR would've gone on to feature as much in the league as he did, had he not started (due to Willian being out) and performed so well. And we might've lost out from being able to utilise him the way we did that season.

If we accept the argument that he could've only featured for the first team from 26th of November onward and couldn't have been on the bench any or gotten minutes any earlier (which I don't personally think is true), then he still could've been given the opportunity to contribute in those 5 EPL games as Drippin put it (from 29th of Nov onward) because those were 5 games with 0 wins (4 losses and 1 draw).

Another point is that after his two consecutive games for U23, he wasn't in the squad for U23 game on 27th November. But he wasn't in EPL squad either against Wolves on 29th November. He did play 15 minutes in UEL on 26th November.

What can explain this one? Arteta denies him game-time from U23, after he played those two games with 71 & 45 minutes, just to leave him out of EPL too?

It really looks like Arteta was cautious with him, which is very understandable regarding his injury-proneness, and earlier bad shoulder injury.

What's also important, is to realize that not all minor worries are told to the press. The management knows the players condition the best, and often some team selections can be because they know something the fans don't.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

When anything went right, all down to Mikel.

When anything went wrong (results/transfers/team selections etc) then basically...

...glad that's all cleared up!

Yeah, because that's what's being said...

I have significant gripes with Mikel's tenure, and often expressed them. The fact that he experienced a learning curve (as Xavi, or Xabi Alonso are now) is undeniable. That my gripes are not the same in nature and that I want to explore the nuances of the matters and question, ahem, questionable narratives, is not the same as what you've reduced it to.

(I know, I am being rather humourless here, and that you're just having a laugh, but writing 5,000 words on bloody Nicolas Pepe will do that to you)

Another point is that after his two consecutive games for U23, he wasn't in the squad for U23 game on 27th November. But he wasn't in EPL squad either against Wolves on 29th November. He did play 15 minutes in UEL on 26th November.

What can explain this one? Arteta denies him game-time from U23, after he played those two games with 71 & 45 minutes, just to leave him out of EPL too?

It really looks like Arteta was cautious with him, which is very understandable regarding his injury-proneness, and earlier bad shoulder injury.

What's also important, is to realize that not all minor worries are told to the press. The management knows the players condition the best, and often some team selections can be because they know something the fans don't.

We have also left out here totally a completely relevant question here, that of ESR's professional and off the field habits at this time, which Mikel would later comment on I believe last season in autumn. It's a pretty safe assumption to be made that this was an area being worked with on with him at this time, as well, in conjunction with exposing him to a new way of working with a new manager at the premier league level and bringing him back from a significant injury post-covid. In short. As with most things, nuance and context needed, and when it is provided...

 

[dka1]

That's because you're ignoring the Europa League, for whatever reason...

He went from being fit for training, to then starting two U23 games, to then getting incrementing sub appearances in meaningful fixtures from one week to the next, to then starting his first match in the EL the week after to finally starting his first match 7-14 days after (I refuse to open up transfermarkt again!!). How can this possibly seem like anything but a logical ramping up of minutes and exposure given the circumstances noted in the posts?

Well no it's not that I'm ignoring the EL but that's the point, why in this context would he be ready for some minutes in the EL but wouldn't be ready to play any minutes in the league at all during that period, when we desperately needed an AM?

That doesn't make sense to me? Because you'd expect him to also get some minutes in the league. Not go from seemingly not ready to contribute in the league to starting against Chelsea.

Not unless, again, we were in a desperate situation and thought ok let's throw him in there as Willian isn't available.

Then he smoked the game and was suddenly getting lots and lots and lots of game time in the league lol.

 

[Trilly]

You'll see from the data compiled above that that is not true.

It is true though? He came back from afcon and Arteta was praising his attitude in training and all of that stuff but he remained on the bench?

C'mon, surely if you rethink this statement you'll see that you can think of a MILLION counter examples...this just doesn't strike me as fair and balanced assessment of the situation

No I genuinely can’t think of a manager who praises a players applications in training, subs them on for a game winning performance and then doesn’t give them a start or at least extended minutes the next game. ESPECIALLY when their positional rival is out of form. I genuinely can’t.

I think you’re going to great lengths to try and justify certain things, when 99% of the time Occam’s razor applies. @dka1 and I are pretty balanced guys who have been Arteta in then out and everything in between.

We’re not gonna go to great efforts to smear Mikel over split milk such as ESR’s break through or Pepe’s time at the club. Without sounding arrogant or anything what we’re saying is basically just…what happened.

 

[dka1]

6z0jcq.jpg

What's going on with this , I feel like it's an inside joke I've missed.

Btw Riou I don't think I ever ask your opinion on something directly, but I'm interested in your thoughts about what happened with some certain players during the 2020/21 season (as I think you're on the Arteta In side, unless I'm mistaken). Ofc feel free to include your honest thoughts about ESR, I won't judge you.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

That doesn't make sense to me? Because you'd expect him to also get some minutes in the league. Not go from seemingly not ready to contribute in the league to starting against Chelsea.

Frankly, I think it went like this: there was one premier league after his first start in the Europa League where he could've been chosen, and I believe we lost that game. ESR was fully match fit at that point, had played a full match at a competitive level, for the first team. Arteta wanted to change things up for Chelsea having lost that game, and having ESR available and having ramped up his minutes from U23 to EL subs to a full start, he could do so without significant risk with ESR, and did. He could've done so the game before, and he didn't. So perhaps you can reasonably criticise him for not using him one game before...or perhaps if you want to be extremely aggressive with your criticism you could criticise for not being more aggressive in ramping up his minutes through Europa League, and he should've started that second game where he went from 15 to 25-30 minutes IIRC instead of come off the bench. The latter is one step too far for me in reasonable criticism, if I'm honest, given all the context offered above, but I won't spend time disputing it if you accept that it is an aggressive and somewhat reaching criticism. That he could've used ESR in the PL match after his first start in EL and before Chelsea I will completely allow it and agree with it.

Finally, was ESR some master plan of Arteta's to save the season? No, of course not. I don't think anyone has said that, certainly not me. Was he a contingency plan or a secret hope, as things increasingly looked to be a failure with Willian and the team in general (Pepe included, if we're being honest and fair in our criticism)? Yeah, I think so. Just as the January window (which resulted in Ødegaard) would've been another contingency plan.

Was Willian a failed bet? Absolutely. No one is arguing that nor is it worth debating. Did we fail to offer ourselves enough options in attacking midfield in the shortened covid transfer window, to allow us to progress with the type of football Arteta wanted to move toward effectively in that season? Again, yes, I don't think that's worth debating either.

 

[db10_therza]

@AbouCuéllar after promising that he was going to write his last essay and tend to his social life:

 

[AbouCuéllar]

No I genuinely can’t think of a manager who praises a players applications in training, subs them on for a game winning performance and then doesn’t give them a start or at least extended minutes the next game. ESPECIALLY when their positional rival is out of form. I genuinely can’t.

Again, you're painting the picture in a rather misleading fashion, the whole picture is above.

And yes, I can. Ancelotti (a renowned manager of personalities and dressing rooms) with Asensio. I believe with Camavinga too. This will have happened so many times in football history you could hardly count it. Hence my disbelief a bit at the question. Again, look at the big picture, look at the example I provide with Tuchel, and remind yourselves that Mikel is not doing some crazy ****ing things that no one in football understands or has seen ever (except being a living Basque God among men, that is), and that if you think that then it's surely a result of a hyper-focus on Arsenal and the distortion that can provide in perception, no?

 

[Riou]

Btw Riou I don't think I ever ask your opinion on something directly, but I'm interested in your thoughts about what happened with some certain players during the 2020/21 season (as I think you're on the Arteta In side, unless I'm mistaken). Ofc feel free to include your honest thoughts about ESR, I won't judge you.

Haven't read the thread, tbh.

Saw the title (and my brain came up with that pic for Mikel) and here I am.

Will read the thread properly soon, then give you an actual coherent answer on what you have asked.

Stay tuned dka1

 

[db10_therza]

Haven't read the thread, tbh.

Saw the title (and my brain came up with that pic for Mikel) and here I am.

Will read the thread properly soon, then give you an actual coherent answer on what you have asked.

Stay tuned dka1

Can’t wait for this. @Riou is meticulously careful about his diplomaticness. Bet you anything he does a runner…

 

[CaseUteinberger]

**** me! I thought I'd chime in with something spiffy but lost the will to live somewhere on the 1st page...

 

[Riou]

When anything went right, all down to Mikel.

When anything went wrong (results/transfers/team selections etc) then basically...

...glad that's all cleared up!

Was really proud of the quoted post above in here...

...so glad it's finally picking up some reactions!

 

[Riou]

Btw Riou I don't think I ever ask your opinion on something directly, but I'm interested in your thoughts about what happened with some certain players during the 2020/21 season (as I think you're on the Arteta In side, unless I'm mistaken). Ofc feel free to include your honest thoughts about ESR, I won't judge you.

Being serious...the best thing I can say about Mikel in 2020/2021, is he was very lucky.

That was the worst season ever to be honest...as I said in my joke post, he genuinely did make a load of errors in terms of player treatment and team selections...we never should be finishing 8th, never mind being like 15th half way through the season.

He was lucky that there were no fans in the stadium during that year, and the board gave him some extra time after the Cup win the previous year...which he did turn it around after that, to be fair to him.

I was genuinely Arteta Out after our loss to Brentford the next season, felt the job was too big for him then...but glad the board gave him more time.

I think ESR playing v Chelsea, was also just a last stab to fix anything instead of being a plan by Mikel...he is a good coach at developing players (see how the likes of Saka/Martinelli/Ramsdale/Gabriel have all improved under him) but I feel at the start of his time here as manager, he valued proven experience (see Auba/Laca/Pepe playing in all our big matches in the cup win under him) and that's understandable, as the pressure of managing a club like us means many wouldn't want to develop young players and would want ready made players instead.

Feel he has improved allround as a manager since then, so despite getting a little lucky to still be here, I am glad he is still here...feel he really drives the club in the right direction, even if he doesn't do it quite like how Arsène used to (but few are Wenger either)

And as for db10_therza...

Can’t wait for this. @Riou is meticulously careful about his diplomaticness. Bet you anything he does a runner…

...once again sir I have to direct you to...

Hey, hey, hey...

Shut up!

 

[db10_therza]

Being serious...the best thing I can say about Mikel in 2020/2021, is he was very lucky.

That was the worst season ever to be honest...as I said in my joke post, he genuinely did make a load of errors in terms of player treatment and team selections...we never should be finishing 8th, never mind being like 15th half way through the season.

He was lucky that there were no fans in the stadium during that year, and the board gave him some extra time after the Cup win the previous year...which he did turn it around after that, to be fair to him.

I was genuinely Arteta Out after our loss to Brentford the next season, felt the job was too big for him then...but glad the board gave him more time.

I think ESR playing v Chelsea, was also just a last stab to fix anything instead of being a plan by Mikel...he is a good coach at developing players (see how the likes of Saka/Martinelli/Ramsdale/Gabriel have all improved under him) but I feel at the start of his time here as manager, he valued proven experience (see Auba/Laca/Pepe playing in all our big matches in the cup win under him) and that's understandable, as the pressure of managing a club like us means many wouldn't want to develop young players and would want ready made players instead.

Feel he has improved allround as a manager since then, so despite getting a little lucky to still be here, I am glad he is still here...feel he really drives the club in the right direction, even if he doesn't do it quite like how Arsène used to (but few are Wenger either)

And as for db10_therza...



...once again sir I have to direct you to...

Worth the wait, xoxo

 

[Macho]

Being serious...the best thing I can say about Mikel in 2020/2021, is he was very lucky.

That was the worst season ever to be honest...as I said in my joke post, he genuinely did make a load of errors in terms of player treatment and team selections...we never should be finishing 8th, never mind being like 15th half way through the season.

He was lucky that there were no fans in the stadium during that year, and the board gave him some extra time after the Cup win the previous year...which he did turn it around after that, to be fair to him.

I was genuinely Arteta Out after our loss to Brentford the next season, felt the job was too big for him then...but glad the board gave him more time.

I think ESR playing v Chelsea, was also just a last stab to fix anything instead of being a plan by Mikel...he is a good coach at developing players (see how the likes of Saka/Martinelli/Ramsdale/Gabriel have all improved under him) but I feel at the start of his time here as manager, he valued proven experience (see Auba/Laca/Pepe playing in all our big matches in the cup win under him) and that's understandable, as the pressure of managing a club like us means many wouldn't want to develop young players and would want ready made players instead.

Feel he has improved allround as a manager since then, so despite getting a little lucky to still be here, I am glad he is still here...feel he really drives the club in the right direction, even if he doesn't do it quite like how Arsène used to (but few are Wenger either)

And as for db10_therza...



...once again sir I have to direct you to...

Well said man.

 

[Makingtrax]

The Arteta wars died down in the Arteta thread, so the Arteta boys decided to open a new 'told you so' thread, because they're so excited at still being top of the league.

Fortunately @Trilly has had the incredible will and the time to call out their nonsense again. I can't be arsed anymore. And anyway, seen us being top of the league before mid season when most of those Arteta boys on here told us it was sh!te and the manager needed removing. Lol.

 

[14Henry]

It's funny to see those who bash Mikel about playing youth etc and use what Wenger did etc as a comparison.

It's often in the EL threads were people saying Wenger would have played the kids in a meaningless EL match. Yet when they are asked to post Wengers last group match team in the EL they fail to do so because they see that he actually didn't play the kids.

The best thing about these football debates is that more often than not the players or the teams, do actually prove whose opinion was right and whose opinion was wrong and those are things that can't be debated.

Hairspray was adamant with time Mikel would be a success. When we were in a bad spell and it looked impossible, he was lambasted. I was one of them thought he had lost the plot. Or his brother had. But he looks like he was right all along.

Other big debates on the forum have been put to bed like the top 4 one last season, or signings, or subs etc because results on the pitch and outcomes have shown those and cannot be debated further.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

Other big debates on the forum have been put to bed like the top 4 one last season, or signings, or subs etc.

Pepe was still unfairly treated tho, and never given a proper chance

 

[samspade]

I can't be arsed anymore.

halleluja

 

[Trilly]

Pepe was still unfairly treated tho, and never given a proper chance

One is true, the other isn't. Just let it go...