The rewritting history thread, or how Mikel/Arsenal turned it around. Or didn't. What even IS real?

[AbouCuéllar]

Nobody stopped you from gloating, even before the mods got involved you had weaks of gloating but it didn’t prove as satisfying as you had hoped…why?

Probably because most of the Arteta-out guys wanted him out because they weren’t happy with his performance. Once that improved majority of us stopped posting in the thread or held our hands up and said good job. A lot of us set our expectations before the season even began and seeing as those have been met, there’s been no reason to kick up a fuss in his thread.

With all the above the gloating wasn’t as satisfying as was probably anticipated which lead to things getting personal, or your group all piling on 1-2 posters to try and get your kicks. That’s when the mods got involved. It’s not a coincidence that a majority of that group are now forming Cry-Mania

Nothing short of a public and formal apology for such terrible heresy as saying Nosferatu Em*ry (not to mention the fake hair **** football connoisseur from down the way) > Basque God (what's worse, heretically called a dark energy demon and harnesser of evil forces!!!) will do, let's face it.

Try writing 500,000 words in futile argument with a certain poster or posters about why our current Godlísimo manager is in fact better than the worst manager in our modern history (and a stale fake haired gnochi from down the way) and being ridiculed for it!! Who wouldn't be crying, it's a wonder some of us can even find the strength to get up in the morning and continue believing in humanity!!

 

[samspade]

Nobody stopped you from gloating, even before the mods got involved you had weaks of gloating but it didn’t prove as satisfying as you had hoped…why?

I wasn't particularly looking to gloat. Only a bit of cheekiness here and there. I'd say that about the same time the penny dropped as to how good Arsenal are we started getting suppressed, so I have a different interpretation..

Probably because most of the Arteta-out guys wanted him out because they weren’t happy with his performance. Once that improved majority of us stopped posting in the thread or held our hands up and said good job. A lot of us set our expectations before the season even began and seeing as those have been met, there’s been no reason to kick up a fuss in his thread.

So you're the angels eh, sounds convincing. I don't remember many posts from posters admitting thy were wrong about the regime. Could you direct me to those, and maybe direct me to the posts reevaluating last season in the context of a genuine process taking effect?

With all the above the gloating wasn’t as satisfying as was probably anticipated which lead to things getting personal, or your group all piling on 1-2 posters to try and get your kicks. That’s when the mods got involved. It’s not a coincidence that a majority of that group are now forming Cry-Mania

This doesn't even make any sense. All the inners just happened to be crack-heads looking for blood?
It's not a coincidence that you lot like the moderation who protect you tbh. Kav got trusted status ffs, how? He doxxed someone ffs.

I’m gonna need some proof
Can we get a ‘What a manager!’ please

This is as far as my gloating was allowed to go, the post got deleted and I reposted it. Does this look like gloating going over the top and becoming personal to you.

 

[razörist]

People rewriting history, everyone and their dog should remember Willian playing when it was clear he was doing absolutely nothing. Long past the point of what was a fair chance Arteta stuck with him because he was his guy. He never stuck with for example Pepe like that even though Pepe warranted that treatment way more (investment, age, talent). And I don’t even rate Pepe.

I remain convinced that by all rights Arteta shouldnt be here, the results, tactics, selections were all super bad. But he survived and I am glad he did. I think this season will be something special and one thing I will give him massive credit for is his ability to install team unity. He could be a little more tactical in the way he moves on from players (ruining their value) but we can’t have it all!

 

[grange]

Probably because most of the Arteta-out guys wanted him out because they weren’t happy with his performance. Once that improved majority of us stopped posting in the thread or held our hands up and said good job.

Those running on vibes haven't realized they were fumes.

 

[drippin]

People rewriting history, everyone and their dog should remember Willian playing when it was clear he was doing absolutely nothing. Long past the point of what was a fair chance Arteta stuck with him because he was his guy. He never stuck with for example Pepe like that even though Pepe warranted that treatment way more (investment, age, talent). And I don’t even rate Pepe.

I remain convinced that by all rights Arteta shouldnt be here, the results, tactics, selections were all super bad. But he survived and I am glad he did. I think this season will be something special and one thing I will give him massive credit for is his ability to install team unity. He could be a little more tactical in the way he moves on from players (ruining their value) but we can’t have it all!

You're the one rewriting history, and when you're showed the facts we know about ESR's injury during that season, and possible reasons why he didn't play earlier, you start accusing us of rewriting history, and start talking about Willian, when what we replied to you about your claim about ESR "being right there", and why he didn't play earlier.

But this ESR stuff during that season seems to come from the position that Arteta somehow mistreated ESR and didn't see his talent at all. When in fact it looks like he protected ESR because of his injuries, and eased him in carefully, like you usually should with a young injury-prone player who has not much match sharpness after a long absence.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

People rewriting history, everyone and their dog should remember Willian playing when it was clear he was doing absolutely nothing. Long past the point of what was a fair chance Arteta stuck with him because he was his guy. He never stuck with for example Pepe like that even though Pepe warranted that treatment way more (investment, age, talent). And I don’t even rate Pepe.

I completely disagree on all counts, and can make convincing arguments on all, and have. But this argument is rather tedious and besides the point at this stage. Just remember that what you are saying to me looks like the rewriting of history, so ultimately we're just talking about different interpretations, and if you are going to accuse people of rewriting history you should probably bring some facts and evidence to the table. I certainly can do so and have with the question of Willian and Pepe, the latter of which--his perceived ill-treatment and lack of chance--is for me one of the falsest of many false narratives on here.

 

[El Duderino]

This thread exist with the sole purpouse of me having a place to put all of our inevitable discussions about what went down on the first couple of years of Mikel's tenure.

At least for when they happen outside of the Arteta thread.

 

[Trilly]

People rewriting history, everyone and their dog should remember Willian playing when it was clear he was doing absolutely nothing. Long past the point of what was a fair chance Arteta stuck with him because he was his guy. He never stuck with for example Pepe like that even though Pepe warranted that treatment way more (investment, age, talent). And I don’t even rate Pepe.

I remain convinced that by all rights Arteta shouldnt be here, the results, tactics, selections were all super bad. But he survived and I am glad he did. I think this season will be something special and one thing I will give him massive credit for is his ability to install team unity. He could be a little more tactical in the way he moves on from players (ruining their value) but we can’t have it all!

Back to football stuff.

I’m glad you said this because you and I were on complete opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of rating Pepe and even we can agree he wasn’t fair towards certain players, Pepe was just the clearest example especially because he was up against Willian who Mikel tried really, really, hard to make a success.

@AbouCuéllar we usually end up meeting in the middle with differences of opinion but this is one area where we just can’t

Even off the top of my head there was the Willian in Dubai situation, Arteta (kind of) admitting the Saliba situation wasn’t handled well, Pepe’s Instagram post about him Douzi and Saliba being in jail, Leno’s comments since leaving and how can we forget the Athletic (pretty much Arsenal/Mikel’s mouthpiece) admitting that Arteta set out to break up the French clique.

It’s cool to have your favourites but again seems like revising history. We as a forum used to joke about how Arteta would bring Willian on if we’re winning 3-0 to try and make him look good but only bring on Pepe when we needed a goal

 

[AbouCuéllar]

Even off the top of my head there was the Willian in Dubai situation, Arteta (kind of) admitting the Saliba situation wasn’t handled well, Pepe’s Instagram post about him Douzi and Saliba being in jail, Leno’s comments since leaving and how can we forget the Athletic (pretty much Arsenal/Mikel’s mouthpiece) admitting that Arteta set out to break up the French clique.

Tbf the Willian in Dubai situation and Athletic piece I am unaware of, would love to see links, always willing to revise my opinion with further evidence. My Arsenal obsession hasn't been this bad since 2010 if it has ever so I missed some of this stuff, also probably as it came in discussions spinning a lot of anti-Arteta narratives it's natural I would've missed it too.

I would just say look at Pepe's usage when he was producing in the league, and his usage in general here. He was given long, extended, chances, more than Willian was, certainly. Arteta's constant positive comments on Pepe in the press would also be relevant counter-evidence here, whether he personally liked him or rated him or not from the evidence I have available to me I don't see anything but a manager that really wanted to see if he could get something out of the club's investment, and who treated him fairly in terms of usage, despite his quality / personality on the pitch not really fitting too well with anything he was building AND the team's best player and centrepiece of the project's best position happening to be the same as Pepe's from early on in the project.

 

[dka1]

Back in full training does not mean back to match fitness...they are totally different things. Transfermarkt has him injured until 25 October. (Remember, Smith Rowe was a young, injury prone player, caution obviously was the expected route with him) He was first named on the subs bench on 26/11 and played 15 min. He got 27 minutes in the Europa League game a week after and then started the one a week after before being inserted against Chelsea on the 26th as a starter in Premier League.

Again, you can interpret things however you like, because we don't have the insider information, but it looks like a quite normal ramping up to match fitness of an injury prone young player who has barely been involved in the side and is in his first months working with a new manager at the premier league level. Given the injury to expect him to be inserted before he actually was, in my humble opinion, is a rather extreme and somewhat unrealistic opinion / interpretation, but, as I say, in the end we all have our interpretations. Given what we've seen since, and Arteta's knack for evaluating player's talent level, I think my interpretation is more realistic than the other one, honestly, but it is what it is, and for many reasons, including pride, many people don't want to revisit this and think about it in a different way than the way they have already interpreted it and created their narratives.

Firstly, as for when ESR was back for Arsenal, I'm going by what the Arsenal site has said because we don't have insider information but surely the club has the most accurate information.

In the interest of fairness I did do a little digging too but here's him the full training pics before City (16th October 2020) and Rapid Vienna (22nd October):

Preparations complete ahead of City trip

Arsenal train ahead of Rapid Vienna clash

So the official Arsenal site probably has it right, unless he got injured again between 22/10 and 25/10. To be fair, perhaps he was in full training by 03/10 but wasn't ready to start until 25/10, but he definitely wasn't injured all the way till 25/10 given the pics.

Also it's funny you talk about people not wanting to revisit things and think about it in a different way than their narratives, yet I gave you a date regarding when he returned to full training and you picked a later date of 25th of October from Transfermrkt because that suits your narrative better. But I digress, what I will admit is that although I think he could've featured more than he did, it's true that he had an injury record so rushing him back wouldn't have been a good idea.

And ok perhaps Rapid Vienna on 22/10 was too early to expect him on the bench (though I mean it was 19 days after he was reported to be back in full training, given the information we had at the time it was not that THAT unreasonable to wonder why he wasn't there).

And further to this, it's not like I wanted him to be starting in the premier league week in and out from October. But he went from no game time in the league at all to starting against Chelsea of all teams, thankfully he did really well in that game.

Was that part of some well constructed plan? Honestly, it doesn't seem so, it certainly runs contradictory to "ramping things up" to go from 0 minutes in the league to starting against one of the stronger teams (albeit they were floundering at the time).

If we're honest, it looked more like desperation from Arteta (which is ok to admit, I mean it worked and we won the game), but again, we shouldn't have been in that position because Arteta should've tried ESR long before then, when it was obvious that Willian wasn't cutting it and Laca at AM was just not working.

Also my biggest issue at the time wasn't that the youngsters weren't being played and that's all there is to it. The issue I had was that either they weren't getting any minutes at all or the senior players were frankly atrocious yet Arteta would still continue to play them (and not give other players opportunities).

 

[dka1]

This thread exist with the sole purpouse of me having a place to put all of our inevitable discussions about what went down on the first couple of years of Mikel's tenure.

At least for when they happen outside of the Arteta thread.

great idea

 

[Trilly]

Tbf the Willian in Dubai situation and Athletic piece I am unaware of, would love to see links, always willing to revise my opinion with further evidence. My Arsenal obsession hasn't been this bad since 2010 if it has ever so I missed some of this stuff, also probably as it came in discussions spinning a lot of anti-Arteta narratives it's natural I would've missed it too.

I would just say look at Pepe's usage when he was producing in the league, and his usage in general here. He was given long, extended, chances, more than Willian was, certainly. Arteta's constant positive comments on Pepe in the press would also be relevant counter-evidence here, whether he personally liked him or rated him or not from the evidence I have available to me I don't see anything but a manager that really wanted to see if he could get something out of the club's investment, and who treated him fairly in terms of usage, despite his quality / personality on the pitch not really fitting too well with anything he was building AND the team's best player and centrepiece of the project's best position happening to be the same as Pepe's from early on in the project.

Willian took an unauthorised trip to Dubai during covid and was given a slap on the wrist, he might have avoided punishment completely actually. Was well reported on, a quick google should help.

Arteta wanting to break up the French clique was mentioned in an athletic article, unfortunately I can’t find it but it was in an article praising him as it was one of things he decided to do quite early, you then look at how the majority of that French clique were treated/left the club and it starts to paint a picture doesn’t it?

I think you have the blinkers on re: Arteta and Pepe but before I get into it I do want to make it clear that Saka is hands down the better player and that’s ultimately what did him here. But before all of that Pepe never even had 3 consecutive starts in the league under Arteta. Willian was purchased to start ahead of him and was a consistent starter for longer than Pepe ever was. Saka ended up killing both of them as RW options anyway.

Fast forward a year and Arteta is praising Pepe’s training and attitude yet he stays firmly on the bench even while Saka is off-form. That praise was purely for the cameras because a few weeks later Pepe comes off the bench to win us the wolves game and is back to the bench the very next game. Doesn’t even get an increased number of minutes coming off the bench, It’s just back to garbage time. I don’t know ANY manager who does that…not long after Pepe checks out mentally once it’s clear it doesn’t really matter what he does and the rest is history.

 

[Trilly]

great idea

Because it’s going to happen a lot. Having someone whose face you’ve wanted to rub it in for so long (pause) simply turning around and being like “yeah he’s doing well I have no complaints” must be such a hollow feeling.

Makes sense that guys are going back in time now to try and score more points.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

ESR played his first U23 game after the shoulder injury basically 6th November 2020. Before that he played 17th October U23 against United, but afterwards missed a couple games so it's likely the injury renewed.

So the official Arsenal site probably has it right, unless he got injured again between 22/10 and 25/10. To be fair, perhaps he was in full training by 03/10 but wasn't ready to start until 25/10, but he definitely wasn't injured all the way till 25/10 given the pics.

Yes, again, returning to training isn't the same as being fit to play or be selected. You know this. Isn't Elneny returning to training soon but won't be available til after the world cup? Anyways, you shouldn't need me to provide examples of this, we all know this fact if we follow football. You can return to training from a long injury--especially if it's after a covid and a long time off from football, and with a new manager, and you are a young, injury-prone boy--1-2 months before you are ready to make competitive appearances.

Also it's funny you talk about people not wanting to revisit things and think about it in a different way than their narratives, yet I gave you a date regarding when he returned to full training and you picked a later date of 25th of October from Transfermrkt because that suits your narrative better. But I digress, what I will admit is that although I think he could've featured more than he did, it's true that he had an injury record so rushing him back wouldn't have been a good idea.

See the post by drippin above. I am not unwilling to think about things in a different way. I am providing more context always. I assume transfermarkt doesn't use that as just some arbitrary date, I would imagine that Arteta declared him match fit or available for selection at that point. It would seem you who are willing to reconsider, as you are hammering on about a rather irrelevant date, when @drippin has posted above his first appearance date for the U23s, and then the second after a long gap (a little setback in his recovery jives with my memory, tbh, we can look back on that thread, perhaps, to see if it's mentioned) which we know, from logic and our experience as football fans, that is the logical first step in recuperation from a long injury, and comes before you can be selected again for the first team.

Was that part of some well constructed plan? Honestly, it doesn't seem so, it certainly runs contradictory to "ramping things up" to go from 0 minutes in the league to starting against one of the stronger teams (albeit they were floundering at the time).

Let's not go strawman here. I did not say well constructed plan, I said it looked to me like a cautious and prudent ramping up of minutes under a new manager, in a new style of play, at a new level, coming off a long injury after a covid break, for a young boy, and that I don't think Arteta could've reasonably used him much earlier, and if he could've, it was only after trying first with fellow youth product and young player Joe Willock and seeing the option fail.

 

[drippin]

Firstly, as for when ESR was back for Arsenal, I'm going by what the Arsenal site has said because we don't have insider information but surely the club has the most accurate information.

In the interest of fairness I did do a little digging too but here's him the full training pics before City (16th October 2020) and Rapid Vienna (22nd October):

Preparations complete ahead of City trip

Arsenal train ahead of Rapid Vienna clash

So the official Arsenal site probably has it right, unless he got injured again between 22/10 and 25/10. To be fair, perhaps he was in full training by 03/10 but wasn't ready to start until 25/10, but he definitely wasn't injured all the way till 25/10 given the pics.

Also it's funny you talk about people not wanting to revisit things and think about it in a different way than their narratives, yet I gave you a date regarding when he returned to full training and you picked a later date of 25th of October from Transfermrkt because that suits your narrative better. But I digress, what I will admit is that although I think he could've featured more than he did, it's true that he had an injury record so rushing him back wouldn't have been a good idea.

And ok perhaps Rapid Vienna on 22/10 was too early to expect him on the bench (though I mean it was 19 days after he was reported to be back in full training, given the information we had at the time it was not that THAT unreasonable to wonder why he wasn't there).

And further to this, it's not like I wanted him to be starting in the premier league week in and out from October. But he went from no game time in the league at all to starting against Chelsea of all teams, thankfully he did really well in that game.

Was that part of some well constructed plan? Honestly, it doesn't seem so, it certainly runs contradictory to "ramping things up" to go from 0 minutes in the league to starting against one of the stronger teams (albeit they were floundering at the time).

If we're honest, it looked more like desperation from Arteta (which is ok to admit, I mean it worked and we won the game), but again, we shouldn't have been in that position because Arteta should've tried ESR long before then, when it was obvious that Willian wasn't cutting it and Laca at AM was just not working.

Also my biggest issue at the time wasn't that the youngsters weren't being played and that's all there is to it. The issue I had was that either they weren't getting any minutes at all or the senior players were frankly atrocious yet Arteta would still continue to play them (and not give other players opportunities).

You can look at when ESR featured on U23 after his injury, right here in this link. Naturally he will first play for U23 to get some match fitness, because even older players can do that route.

So from there you can quite surely see information about his true fitness levels after a long injury. U23 matches have nothing to do with Arteta, so you can't use that as an excuse on why he wasn't selected for U23 before.

And why did he miss two games after his first comeback United U23 game? While Transfermarkt mentions "shoulder injury", straight after 45 minutes against United. It's pretty clear that he started to be finally more fit only after 6th November because we can witness this from the U23 games. At the end of October he wasn't in any squads, U23, EPL or UEL.

Also why did he miss the Southampton game (and wasn't part of U23 games), in between the bench appearances on 13th & 19th December? I would assume he would play for U23 if Arteta doesn't rate him and leaves him out because of that. My guess is some minor injury worry, but we can't know that.

Btw. ESR played UEL games, his last one was 77 minutes against Dundalk on 10th December 2020. To gradually get match fit, playing less minutes in UEL before that.

Emile Smith Rowe - Detailed stats

These are the detailed performance data of FC Arsenal player Emile Smith Rowe. The website contains a statistic about the performance data of the player.

www.transfermarkt.com

 

[db10_therza]

Nah nah, what have I stumbled into here. This has all the makings of a classic AM thread.

 

[dka1]

Yes, again, returning to training isn't the same as being fit to play or be selected. You know this. Isn't Elneny returning to training soon but won't be available til after the world cup? Anyways, you shouldn't need me to provide examples of this, we all know this fact if we follow football. You can return to training from a long injury--especially if it's after a covid and a long time off from football, and with a new manager, and you are a young, injury-prone boy--1-2 months before you are ready to make competitive appearances.


See the post by drippin above. I am not unwilling to think about things in a different way. I am providing more context always. I assume transfermarkt doesn't use that as just some arbitrary date, I would imagine that Arteta declared him match fit or available for selection at that point. It would seem you who are willing to reconsider, as you are hammering on about a rather irrelevant date, when @drippin has posted above his first appearance date for the U23s, and then the second after a long gap (a little setback in his recovery jives with my memory, tbh, we can look back on that thread, perhaps, to see if it's mentioned) which we know, from logic and our experience as football fans, that is the logical first step in recuperation from a long injury, and comes before you can be selected again for the first team.


Let's not go strawman here. I did not say well constructed plan, I said it looked to me like a cautious and prudent ramping up of minutes under a new manager, in a new style of play, at a new level, coming off a long injury after a covid break, for a young boy, and that I don't think Arteta could've reasonably used him much earlier, and if he could've, it was only after trying first with fellow youth product and young player Joe Willock and seeing the option fail.

Edit: Ok let's see if I can get it right this time (formatting problem).

I'm not hammering on about an irrelevant date, I'm going by the information on the Arsenal site as he wasn't reported as injured again. Unless I'm mistaken usually that information would have come out had ESR gotten injured again.

But examining @drippin's post, he played for the U23 first on 17th of October, then on the 6th of November then on the 20th of November again.

After that he gets minutes in the EL from the 26th of Nov onward so we can conclude without reasonable doubt, he's fully fit by then and ready for the first team.

In between the 17th of October and 6th of November, he is shown in most of the pictures before games in full training with the first team, to me it doesn't look like there's a set back; at most maybe they were being cautious about his recovery.

As for your last paragraph, again you're not convincing me it was a prudent "ramping up of minutes" when he went from 0 minutes in the league, to starting against Chelsea in what was a desperate situation for Arteta.

That's not a "prudent ramping up of minutes under a new manager, in a new style of play, at a new level, coming off a long injury after a covid break", that is desperation, pure and simple. Edit: But again, like it's not necessarily bad that he was desperate, because his decision born from desperation worked, well. However I don't honestly think ESR would've gone on to feature as much in the league as he did, had he not started (due to Willian being out) and performed so well. And we might've lost out from being able to utilise him the way we did that season.

If we accept the argument that he could've only featured for the first team from 26th of November onward and couldn't have been on the bench any or gotten minutes any earlier (which I don't personally think is true), then he still could've been given the opportunity to contribute in those 5 EPL games as Drippin put it (from 29th of Nov onward) because those were 5 games with 0 wins (4 losses and 1 draw).

 

[AbouCuéllar]

Willian took an unauthorised trip to Dubai during covid and was given a slap on the wrist, he might have avoided punishment completely actually. Was well reported on, a quick google should help.

Alright, I'm going to take this one on as fast as I can, but I'm self-imposing a stoppage on my activity after this one, I'm well over my essay limit for the day and my work and social life is even worse neglected today at the hands of this forum than you perceive Pepe to be at the hands of God teta.

Given a quick slap on the wrist but moved on promptly and completely phased out of the team in the second half of the season (making--surprise surprise, footballer in disgruntled after the fact comments when unfavoured--similar comments to unfavoured players like Leno, or Saliba when sent on loan--who, surprise surprise, has a different view of the situation, having aged, and seeing his situation in the team change drastically, and getting to know the manager differently.*..). Useful context, no?

*perhaps you lot, just a suggestion, might want to take player comment's a bit more philosophically? For those who know footballers or have been in football, we can tell you with some forcefulness...they're not that deep. Especially when they are in their early 20s. Call me crazy, but I'm a bit more interested in what a 38 year old man who is clearly an intelligent human being, has played all over the world in different cultures under some of the best minds in football, has risen up the coaching pyramid at rapid speed and has gained the appreciation of everyone inside football, and has an army of consultants at his disposal, thinks on a lot of things than a 20-something footballer??

Arteta wanting to break up the French clique was mentioned in an athletic article, unfortunately I can’t find it but it was in an article praising him as it was one of things he decided to do quite early, you then look at how the majority of that French clique were treated/left the club and it starts to paint a picture doesn’t it?

I totally buy that, and his rather authoritative treatment of Guendouzi used to be one of my points of critique with him, but as we say in Spanish, time seems to have proven him right here, no? Perhaps we should open our minds to the idea that he was right in doing so? And that this is not incompatible with giving Pepe a fair shot, given the relevant circumstances I've alluded to above (in short: Saka, incompatibility with system and play style / lack of tactical intelligence and associative ability, lack of effectiveness)?

I think you have the blinkers on re: Arteta and Pepe but before I get into it I do want to make it clear that Saka is hands down the better player and that’s ultimately what did him here. But before all of that Pepe never even had 3 consecutive starts in the league under Arteta. Willian was purchased to start ahead of him and was a consistent starter for longer than Pepe ever was. Saka ended up killing both of them as RW options anyway.

Re: the bolded sentences: revisit, if you would, Willian and Pepe's usage on whoscored, and the circumstances. Consider that Pepe played more than Willian, and had the same amount of starts in the league (7 more in UEL), despite being unfavoured in the first half, and favoured in the second, when he produced performances, and despite the fact that in the second half there was far more competition for places (ESR + Ødegaard), he still ended up with 600 minutes more than Willian in the two competitions, despite almost all of Willian's starts coming in that period when Pepe was unfavoured and not producing in the league, before ESR came into the team and the functionality of the team took a noticeable turn. Take a look at the relationship between Pepe's performance in the league and his usage and volume of starts, you'll see there's a quite significant relationship...we can look very easily at the data for Pepe's usage vs. Willian's that season....Pepe started 4 of the first 14 games before Chelsea, one of them resulting in a red card where he was not available for selection 3 of those 14. Nicolas Pépé - Datos detallados de rendimiento

He registered his first goal or assist in a start in a loss to Everton, after starting the previous game in a 1-1 draw to Southampton, after the Everton match came Chelsea and ESR's insertion. He was 4 games on the bench including the Chelsea match, and then scored his first goal in a win, against Southampton, and then started the following three matches, before sitting the next. All in all, after his first goal in a winning effort, after the ESR insertion, despite having more competition in the form of ESR and Ødegaard, he started 11 of 18 possible matches, subbed on at half-time in another. He started 4 of a possible 11 in the 14 pre-Chelsea, in which Willian started 12. He then started the following season as a starter in our team in 4 of the first 5 matches (the 4th he wasn't even on the subs bench, so I'd assume that was for covid or injury reasons?)

Quite simply, I think it paints a pretty clear picture if you're looking at it with an open mind: Willian was bought in the covid summer of 2020 to be a key part of our project, and yes, be a nailed on starter with Pepe, Saka, and Nelson competing for most of the other minutes. Hence he started 12 of the first 14 matches pre-ESR insertion against Chelsea, one of which he was unavailable through injury (so 12 of 13, really). Willian was given as fair a chance as possible, as you could give to a player you've signed thinking he would be an important player in your team, and was summarily phased out of the team when other options, including Pepe--something he didn't do in any convincing way in the first half, crucially, if you look at his league performance (Pepe produced 1 npG and a red card for indiscipline in his first 409 minutes in PL pre-Chelsea, Willian 3 assists in 900 something--just did the math but lost it, except for the final result--, so Pepe 1nPG/A per every 409--off the bench, 0 in his starts, Willian 1 every 296).

Fast forward a year and Arteta is praising Pepe’s training and attitude yet he stays firmly on the bench even while Saka is off-form.

You'll see from the data compiled above that that is not true.

That praise was purely for the cameras because a few weeks later Pepe comes off the bench to win us the wolves game and is back to the bench the very next game. Doesn’t even get an increased number of minutes coming off the bench, It’s just back to garbage time. I don’t know ANY manager who does that…not long after Pepe checks out mentally once it’s clear it doesn’t really matter what he does and the rest is history.

C'mon, surely if you rethink this statement you'll see that you can think of a MILLION counter examples...this just doesn't strike me as fair and balanced assessment of the situation (reminds me of how Arteta was ridiculed for his treatment of Auba and Tuchel's comments on him made him held up as a shining example, lol, of course, Tuchel had done the exact same or worse with Lukaku, and of course we've found out this summer with a number of other players, certainly worse...mmm, d'oh!-- another d'oh moment that of course is swept under the rug, there...).

I sure hope this is the last time I dedicate so much time to Nicolas Pepe. Never has so much energy been spent on such a mediocre player, his only rival is managerial, where such time and more has been spent on a much more mediocre or worse manager

While we're gloating (), I'll remind you that back in the autumn of 2021, before Martinelli got his long run in the team, I suggested that you lot overrated Pepe and his skill set and the rarity of it in Europe extremely, and that for example, I was confident that a barely used Martinelli could produce similar results (in retrospect, this was of course even a pessimistic / overly-cautious prediction, much like my predictions when people were out for God teta's head and relegation was supposedly on the cards that we would certainly get top 6 and perhaps even compete for top 4).

Essay signed and delivered. I'll leave the prologue and afterword to you guys.

 

[AbouCuéllar]

As for your last paragraph, again you're not convincing me it was a prudent "ramping up of minutes" when he went from 0 minutes in the league, to starting against Chelsea in what was a desperate situation for Arteta.

He was first named on the subs bench on 26/11 and played 15 min. He got 27 minutes in the Europa League game a week after and then started the one a week after before being inserted against Chelsea on the 26th as a starter in Premier League

That's because you're ignoring the Europa League, for whatever reason...

He went from being fit for training, to then starting two U23 games, to then getting incrementing sub appearances in meaningful fixtures from one week to the next, to then starting his first match in the EL the week after to finally starting his first match 7-14 days after (I refuse to open up transfermarkt again!!). How can this possibly seem like anything but a logical ramping up of minutes and exposure given the circumstances noted in the posts?

 

[Riou]

When anything went right, all down to Mikel.

When anything went wrong (results/transfers/team selections etc) then basically...

...glad that's all cleared up!